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Military Officers Right To Disobey Trump Nuclear Issues & War

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ThoughtEx. said:
Intelligence services could explain everything to him in intricate detail, doesn't mean he understands or knows it once they are done. They literally have to give him summaries with his name in each paragraph just to make sure he reads the whole page. It's not intelligence's failures he's literally to stupid to read one page.
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Intelligence services could explain everything to him in intricate detail, and he would understand and know it once they are done. They literally have to give him the intelligence briefs the same way that have given every other President their intelligence briefs and he will read and understand them.


(I can just say stuff too ya know, you don't know any of this, you are just mad that he is the President.)
 
Renae said:
I'd imagine a civilian such as yourself would find this to be a valid discussion.

Here's the, for someone given that order, you have to carry it out. You don't know if the CinC has direct information that dictated this, say we KNEW without a doubt that in 41 minutes, NK was going to launch a nuclear strike. If you refuse, you will be responsible for the deaths of MILLIONS of Americans.

See, I just made this whole theory game, poppycock. This is one example, I can do this all day.
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And in all fairness, would a better choice be to launch a series of strategic air strikes on the enemy's command centers instead of nuking them and killing tens of thousands or more innocent civilians?
 
Caine said:
And in all fairness, would a better choice be to launch a series of strategic air strikes on the enemy's command centers instead of nuking them and killing tens of thousands or more innocent civilians?
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Depends on the situation.
 
Caine said:
And in all fairness, would a better choice be to launch a series of strategic air strikes on the enemy's command centers instead of nuking them and killing tens of thousands or more innocent civilians?
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Depends on their air-defense capabilities.
 
I do not think they should disobey, people should clearly try to make saner choices available and push Trump towards those, even delaying them slightly so his family or some other person with influence over Trump could intervene. But if he has made a legal and presidential decision to use a nuke, however stupid that may be, the military should not refuse to do their duty. It is the military who is beholden to the people of the USA, and if the leader of the US gives that order, and it is a legally given one, they should carry it out.

And yes, I hate Trump and I think he would be a moron for using a preemptive strike or use nukes if NK has not used them because with regular weapons, missiles and bombs, the US air force and navy could destroy NK to within an inch of it's existence without having to use nukes. Nukes are the toys of people who are fools IMHO.
 
pinqy said:
Possibly not. But his orders would come from those who do have access.
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I guess the intel access stops at general, perhaps only the generals at white house/pentagon level. Would the general of a nuclear unit have the intel or the guy above him? Some generals would have access to the intel, I'd guess very few. My initial claim was "even generals", not to mean all generals. Anything under a general acts on good faith.
 
countryboy said:
This active duty dip**** should be made non-active duty, immediately.
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I know Colonel Milburne personally. I've served with him, and have friends that have served under him, both in combat and stateside. Those who have, want to do so again - he's a fantastic leader.

:) So I know that you have no idea wtf you are talking about, and probably didn't even read through the article.
 
Tangmo said:
We know a captain or a couple of captains (generally speaking) in a USAF silo control center would execute the launch order. Some of 'em might refuse to execute a launch order but all indicators are that very few if any would refuse.
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None would refuse. It's no so much about trusting the order is just, it's about the consequences of being wrong. Given the virtually impossible chance of the order being unjust and the inconceivable consequences of being wrong about that guess, there's no chance. If Bugs Bunny was president, one must act on the order or risk the US being struck.

Perhaps a general with access to all the intel of the Pres, so he can know 100% it's wrong.
 
cpwill said:
I know Colonel Milburne personally. I've served with him, and have friends that have served under him, both in combat and stateside. Those who have, want to do so again - he's a fantastic leader.

:) So I know that you have no idea wtf you are talking about, and probably didn't even read through the article.
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I see, so you think this kind of rhetoric is helpful? Why am I not the least bit surprised?

The guy is a piece of **** who should be dishonorably discharged, and thrown in the brig for good measure. Again, no big surprise you would support such a person.
 
Renae said:
The Generals don't push the buttons. So yes, perhaps a General could when told to order a strike at that moment say directly to the the President, "Mr. President, I do not concur" and face the wrath and ruin that would follow. But anyone down chain? No intel, can't see, refusing to fire could be disastrous.
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My post #39 plse thx.

"Push the buttom" is a manner of speaking, as is calling it the "red button."

It's like early on in the Cold War when the first "hot line" was installed between Washington and Moscow so leaders could communicate directly and virtually instantly. Y'know, avoid Armageddon. The general public thought for the longest time it was a phone when it wuz in fact a teletype machine that looked like it came over from the Associated Press. Thoze were the dayze.

So it's a good thingy for allofus you spent ten years in USN. I myself put in four years with the Army and four years in university senior Rotc before it. So between you out there and me on solid ground here I'd say the two of us have it all covered.

What does Trump think? Lemme rephrase that -- does Trump think? I myself think Trump looks cute with his nose colored red like a button. I heartell there are some generals who want to punch the button. So to speak.
 
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countryboy said:
I see, so you think this kind of rhetoric is helpful? Why am I not the least bit surprised?
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You aren't surprised because you didn't read the article. Instead you assumed it was about Trump. When it was written in 2010, as a part of a thesis work at NDU. Which is an academic institution.

The guy is a piece of **** who should be dishonorably discharged, and thrown in the brig for good measure. Again, no big surprise you would support such a person.
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:shrug: He's served decades in our combat arms and special forces community undertaking the most difficult of missions in the most dangerous of places for our country. What have you done?
 
cpwill said:
You aren't surprised because you didn't read the article. Instead you assumed it was about Trump. When it was written in 2010, as a part of a thesis work at NDU. Which is an academic institution.



:shrug: He's served decades in our combat arms and special forces community undertaking the most difficult of missions in the most dangerous of places for our country. What have you done?
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That means he should know better.
 
apdst said:
That means he should know better.
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Then I suggest you go read his thesis, and you can learn exactly what he does, in fact, know, and what he does, in fact, say.

Or, you can continue to be ill-informed on the matter. :shrug: I bet I know which one you'll pick.


(I'll give you a hint: he wrote this in 2010, and it therefore doesn't have a damn thing to do with the title of the OP)
 
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cpwill said:
Then I suggest you go read his thesis, and you can learn exactly what he does, in fact, know, and what he does, in fact, say.

Or, you can continue to be ill-informed on the matter. :shrug: I bet I know which one you'll pick.
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Anyone with that much experience should know better than to suggest that lawful orders can be disobeyed.

That's just the long and the short of it.

Were you an officer, or an enlisted man?
 
apdst said:
Anyone with that much experience should know better than to suggest that lawful orders can be disobeyed.
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Of course lawful orders can be disobeyed. Anyone with any experience should know that they can be disobeyed.

As Colonel Milburn put it in the section you apparently didn't read, despite it being in the actual OP:

If the officer cannot live with obeying the order, then he must disobey and accept the consequences.​

Nor is he alone in this judgment, as you will note from the survey results:

A survey conducted among students at the Marine Corps War College (MCWAR) in January 2010 represents a cross section of 20 senior field-grade officers from all Services and two foreign countries. Without exception, they agreed that there are circumstances under which they would disobey a lawful order. ​


:)

Were you an officer, or an enlisted man?
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:shrug: I was enlisted.
 
pinqy said:
In reality, the senior generals get more intel than that provided to the President. If NK was about to launch missiles, the Generals and Admirals in the Pentagon and in major commands would know about it and likely before the President did. Or did you forget that DIA, NSA, and NGA are Dept of Defense agencies?
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That would be an emergency meeting of the joint chiefs with the president being briefed on the way.
We would go to defcon 3 maybe 2. Not all generals would know
 
cpwill said:
Of course lawful orders can be disobeyed. Anyone with any experience should know that they can be disobeyed.

As Colonel Milburn put it in the section you apparently didn't read, despite it being in the actual OP:

If the officer cannot live with obeying the order, then he must disobey and accept the consequences.​

Nor is he alone in this judgment, as you will note from the survey results:

A survey conducted among students at the Marine Corps War College (MCWAR) in January 2010 represents a cross section of 20 senior field-grade officers from all Services and two foreign countries. Without exception, they agreed that there are circumstances under which they would disobey a lawful order. ​


:)



:shrug: I was enlisted.
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Sure they can be. Hell, anything can be done. My point is, an experienced combat arms officer shouldn't justify it.
 
pinqy said:
In reality, the senior generals get more intel than that provided to the President. If NK was about to launch missiles, the Generals and Admirals in the Pentagon and in major commands would know about it and likely before the President did. Or did you forget that DIA, NSA, and NGA are Dept of Defense agencies?
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.....sorta. It depends on how the intel comes in, and how it is flagged. If it's regular reporting, then yes. If it's a CRITIC, then the reporter, the recipient, the watch, and the DIRNSA will know before the POTUS does, because that's the chain that gets it to him.... in about 10-15 minutes.
 
There's a reason the CiC and the SoD are civilians. My prayer is that Mattis moves into the WH not far from the football.
 
Parrish said:
There's a reason the CiC and the SoD are civilians. My prayer is that Mattis moves into the WH not far from the football.
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It takes two people to give the order to fly nukes, anyway.

Y'all should become better informed prior to being triggered.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_football

Maybe Liberals should be subject to the two man rule, so they aren't so easily triggered.
 
apdst said:
Sure they can be. Hell, anything can be done. My point is, an experienced combat arms officer shouldn't justify it.
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OTC, I can think of a number of issues in which it might be justified, and the right thing to do.

Heck, I can think of a time when a Russian Soviet officer did precisely that, and probably saved the entire world.
 
cpwill said:
OTC, I can think of a number of issues in which it might be justified, and the right thing to do.

Heck, I can think of a time when a Russian Soviet officer did precisely that, and probably saved the entire world.
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There are no scenarios where disobeying a lawful order is the right thing to do. It doesn't work that way. You should know better, too.
 
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