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F35 review

garf

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It seems as if some foreign pilots are loving their Lightnings.
Plenty of stuff on it recently on the internet.
Norway, Denmark for example


Fake news perhaps?

G*
 
It seems as if some foreign pilots are loving their Lightnings.
Plenty of stuff on it recently on the internet.
Norway, Denmark for example


Fake news perhaps?

G*

Do you have some examples? Perhaps a source or two so we can know what you are talking about?
 
It seems as if some foreign pilots are loving their Lightnings.
Plenty of stuff on it recently on the internet.
Norway, Denmark for example


Fake news perhaps?

G*

This is a much delayed super super expensive new toy, when they have not had a new toy in a very long time, they had better be lovin it....
 
This is a much delayed super super expensive new toy, when they have not had a new toy in a very long time, they had better be lovin it....

Yep. they cost between 12 and 26 times as much per unit than the fighters they are replacing.
They lose in a dogfight to an F-16, they tie in a dogfight with an F-18 and they really cant even do what an A-10 did.
 
Yep. they cost between 12 and 26 times as much per unit than the fighters they are replacing.
They lose in a dogfight to an F-16, they tie in a dogfight with an F-18 and they really cant even do what an A-10 did.

All military gear, and most civilian gear, costs more than it did 20 + years ago.

One lost in a training dogfight against an F-16. with a pilot who had hundreds fewer hours in f-35 cockpit than the F-16 pilot had in the F-16 cockpit, with partial software, partial loadout, and not fully tuned at the time, against an aircraft specialized in dogfighting.
 
Yep. they cost between 12 and 26 times as much per unit than the fighters they are replacing.
They lose in a dogfight to an F-16, they tie in a dogfight with an F-18 and they really cant even do what an A-10 did.

It is too early to say for sure but this might be as huge a miscalculation as was investing so much into aircraft carriers and stealth tech....there has been a complete lack of interest in spending money efficiently and running programs according to good standards. Military procurement is one of the best places to look to see how badly the elite class has failed. We will get humiliated in war for sure, and their failure is bankrupting the nation.
 
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From what I know the F-35 did not "loose" a dogfight against the F-16. It was just clumsy control laws for it's software being fixed. The F-35 is a bit more maneuverable than the F-16 if looking at exact stats such as engine power, angle of attack etc(https://theaviationist.com/2016/03/...g-in-the-f-35-a-jsf-pilot-first-hand-account/)

The F-35 however, is pretty mediocre compared to advanced dogfighters like the F-22, Sukhoi Flankers, Eurofighter etc. The F-35 excels in gathering information(advanced sensors nobody could match due to the computing), electronic warfare(supercomputers that can process a gazillion jamming operations and counter their jamming), storing information(large data files like our PCs), sharing information over long ranges(using powerful receivers and transmitters to have have an instant-wifi), along with low observability. All this data transfer will give very accurate coordinates for missile shots, making dogfighting rather pointless.

The F-35 is not a bad airplane. Most USAF guys I met said it's good, and most foreign pilots probably love it as well for they are replacing their fleets with the plane.
 
All military gear, and most civilian gear, costs more than it did 20 + years ago.

One lost in a training dogfight against an F-16. with a pilot who had hundreds fewer hours in f-35 cockpit than the F-16 pilot had in the F-16 cockpit, with partial software, partial loadout, and not fully tuned at the time, against an aircraft specialized in dogfighting.

Partial software is kinda the problem here. The plane isn't freaking functional yet. We're pretending it is so that the budget numbers don't look so atrocious.
 
From what I know the F-35 did not "loose" a dogfight against the F-16. It was just clumsy control laws for it's software being fixed. The F-35 is a bit more maneuverable than the F-16 if looking at exact stats such as engine power, angle of attack etc(https://theaviationist.com/2016/03/...g-in-the-f-35-a-jsf-pilot-first-hand-account/)

The F-35 however, is pretty mediocre compared to advanced dogfighters like the F-22, Sukhoi Flankers, Eurofighter etc. The F-35 excels in gathering information(advanced sensors nobody could match due to the computing), electronic warfare(supercomputers that can process a gazillion jamming operations and counter their jamming), storing information(large data files like our PCs), sharing information over long ranges(using powerful receivers and transmitters to have have an instant-wifi), along with low observability. All this data transfer will give very accurate coordinates for missile shots, making dogfighting rather pointless.

The F-35 is not a bad airplane. Most USAF guys I met said it's good, and most foreign pilots probably love it as well for they are replacing their fleets with the plane.

I seriously doubt that the true capabilities of the aircraft are going to be divulged. It should be our enemie's final conscious thought.
 
I seriously doubt that the true capabilities of the aircraft are going to be divulged. It should be our enemie's final conscious thought.
The aircraft's functions and purpose are not classified.(what it's suppose do) Corporations(Lockheed Martin, Pratt and Whiteney, BAE Systems, Northrop) have to make it well known to sell it Generals and give info to their subcontractors. But it's exact system's are. (how it's computers run, the exact code functions, radar waveforms etc)

The F-35 is a post-Cold War plane designed to be cheaper realistically. It's suppose to replace the F-16, Harrier, F-18 Hornet, and supplement the F-15C, F-22 and A-10. If the F-35 is never made, those planes would have to be bought and upgraded with software and a R@D probably just expensive as the F-35 program. Buying all those planes in large numbers is very expensive since you are buying multiple planes and supply lines and having multiple training programs. And with budget cuts, you are going to have to keep the fleet running decades. It would cost Trillions vs. the F-35's $1.5 Trillion which the cost to research, buy, and sustain by 2065.
 
All military gear, and most civilian gear, costs more than it did 20 + years ago.

One lost in a training dogfight against an F-16. with a pilot who had hundreds fewer hours in f-35 cockpit than the F-16 pilot had in the F-16 cockpit, with partial software, partial loadout, and not fully tuned at the time, against an aircraft specialized in dogfighting.

Still though, it wasn't even close. and the computer modeled head to head vs the f-18 was a wash overall. my point is a one size fits all craft is a mistake. it does lots of things 'ok'. The reason you would make something that does lots of things ok is to save money. but its expensive.
 
I don't even know you guys keep talking about dogfights. The ultimate dogfighting airplane is the missile. :)

There hasn't a been a single gun kill in the past years(Gulf War/Kosovo) on another fighter. Even in Vietnam, where F-4s flew without guns, most North Vietnamese kills on US aircraft where from missiles, not from guns. Most Vietnam era missiles where bad due to the early technology.
 
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From what I know the F-35 did not "loose" a dogfight against the F-16. It was just clumsy control laws for it's software being fixed. The F-35 is a bit more maneuverable than the F-16 if looking at exact stats such as engine power, angle of attack etc(https://theaviationist.com/2016/03/...g-in-the-f-35-a-jsf-pilot-first-hand-account/)

The F-35 however, is pretty mediocre compared to advanced dogfighters like the F-22, Sukhoi Flankers, Eurofighter etc. The F-35 excels in gathering information(advanced sensors nobody could match due to the computing), electronic warfare(supercomputers that can process a gazillion jamming operations and counter their jamming), storing information(large data files like our PCs), sharing information over long ranges(using powerful receivers and transmitters to have have an instant-wifi), along with low observability. All this data transfer will give very accurate coordinates for missile shots, making dogfighting rather pointless.

The F-35 is not a bad airplane. Most USAF guys I met said it's good, and most foreign pilots probably love it as well for they are replacing their fleets with the plane.

It probably can operate with an "arsenal plane" (manned or unmanned) or two doing the actual launches as it reserves its munitions for self defense or very difficult targets.
 
I don't even know you guys keep talking about dogfights. The ultimate dogfighting airplane is the missile. :)

There hasn't a been a single gun kill in the past years(Gulf War/Kosovo) on another fighter. Even in Vietnam, where F-4s flew without guns, most North Vietnamese kills on US aircraft where from missiles, not from guns. Most Vietnam era missiles where bad due to the early technology.



At today's speeds and range of airborne radar, the term 'dogfighting' is an anachronism. At passing speeds a pilot would likely suffer a broken neck trying to keep 'eyes on' his counterpart. Missles from miles out.
 
The F-35 will neither be as good as it's supporters say nor as bad as it's detractors claim.
 
It is too early to say for sure but this might be as huge a miscalculation as was investing so much into aircraft carriers and stealth tech....there has been a complete lack of interest in spending money efficiently and running programs according to good standards. Military procurement is one of the best places to look to see how badly the elite class has failed. We will get humiliated in war for sure, and their failure is bankrupting the nation.

All those stupid stupid elite-class countries lining up to buy the damn thing.
I had no idea they were so stupid.
Why doesn't Lockheed raise the price?
Supply and demand works we know so...
Stupid elite-class countries are ripe for the taking and we just blather on about the plane.
 
All those stupid stupid elite-class countries lining up to buy the damn thing.
I had no idea they were so stupid.
Why doesn't Lockheed raise the price?
Supply and demand works we know so...
Stupid elite-class countries are ripe for the taking and we just blather on about the plane.

We long ago put the strong arm on them to buy it, and did what we could to make sure that there were no other options, so yes they are buying. If it does not work as advertised it will be the last time we get away with pulling that stunt.
 
We long ago put the strong arm on them to buy it, and did what we could to make sure that there were no other options, so yes they are buying. If it does not work as advertised it will be the last time we get away with pulling that stunt.

Thanks
I get it now

All those wimpy elite-class countries lining up to buy the damn thing.
I had no idea they were so fearful.
Why doesn't Lockheed raise the price?
Supply is demand if you “make” them buy more.
Feeble elite-class countries are ripe for buying another 100 of those airplanes.
Let's go kick Estonia's ass and make them.
 
From what I know the F-35 did not "loose" a dogfight against the F-16. It was just clumsy control laws for it's software being fixed. The F-35 is a bit more maneuverable than the F-16 if looking at exact stats such as engine power, angle of attack etc(https://theaviationist.com/2016/03/...g-in-the-f-35-a-jsf-pilot-first-hand-account/)

The F-35 however, is pretty mediocre compared to advanced dogfighters like the F-22, Sukhoi Flankers, Eurofighter etc. The F-35 excels in gathering information(advanced sensors nobody could match due to the computing), electronic warfare(supercomputers that can process a gazillion jamming operations and counter their jamming), storing information(large data files like our PCs), sharing information over long ranges(using powerful receivers and transmitters to have have an instant-wifi), along with low observability. All this data transfer will give very accurate coordinates for missile shots, making dogfighting rather pointless.

The F-35 is not a bad airplane. Most USAF guys I met said it's good, and most foreign pilots probably love it as well for they are replacing their fleets with the plane.

The Pentagon said the F-35 lost, the pilot who was flying the F-35 said the F-35 lost. The Pentagon said that the F-35 should be able to detect the other aircraft and get a lock and destroy it before the other jet knows the F-35 is there because of its stealth.
Of course they could have just upgraded the F-16 or another jet and added the stealth.
 
It seems as if some foreign pilots are loving their Lightnings.
Plenty of stuff on it recently on the internet.
Norway, Denmark for example


Fake news perhaps?

G*

Oh come on now.

The planes may indeed be fine.

But when was the last time a serving military pilot condemned (to the press) a brand new, fighter/bomber that his government just bought for a TON of money?

His superior officer would probably fry him in oil if he did. And if he didn't, his superior would probably fry them both in oil.

This plane could be the worst the guy has ever flown and he still would be in deep **** if he said it was anything but wonderful.
 
The Pentagon said the F-35 lost, the pilot who was flying the F-35 said the F-35 lost. The Pentagon said that the F-35 should be able to detect the other aircraft and get a lock and destroy it before the other jet knows the F-35 is there because of its stealth.
Of course they could have just upgraded the F-16 or another jet and added the stealth.
Er no.....

The test between the F-35 and F-16 was to test the early control laws. (It's not manuverability of the plane alone but now software to get decent imputs when you hit the petals and joystick, you need proper software for this)NOT to see "who wins".


Any realistic fight between the F-35 and the F-16 would end up in a defeat for the F-16....badly. It's not dogfights that decide the battle(like that "test"), it's missile combat from long range. Remember 20-1 kill ratio in recent ACTUAL exercises.
https://theaviationist.com/2017/02/...nce-with-a-201-kill-ratio-u-s-air-force-says/

You can't add much stealth to an F-16. Anyone who knows physics know this can't work. You can't add the systems on other jets, the software for Cold War jets can't support it.
 
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Er no.....

The test between the F-35 and F-16 was to test the early control laws. (It's not manuverability of the plane alone but now software to get decent imputs when you hit the petals and joystick, you need proper software for this)NOT to see "who wins".


Any realistic fight between the F-35 and the F-16 would end up in a defeat for the F-16....badly. It's not dogfights that decide the battle(like that "test"), it's missile combat from long range. Remember 20-1 kill ratio in recent ACTUAL exercises.
https://theaviationist.com/2017/02/...nce-with-a-201-kill-ratio-u-s-air-force-says/

You can't add much stealth to an F-16. Anyone who knows physics know this can't work. You can't add the systems on other jets, the software for Cold War jets can't support it.


I knew there were differing views on the F-35 however I did not know, until looking around after you posted this, that it had reached such alt-truth levels. It rings the bell in some people (groups, politics, cable news preferences) for sure.

Thanks for the post.
 
Er no.....

The test between the F-35 and F-16 was to test the early control laws. (It's not manuverability of the plane alone but now software to get decent imputs when you hit the petals and joystick, you need proper software for this)NOT to see "who wins".


Any realistic fight between the F-35 and the F-16 would end up in a defeat for the F-16....badly. It's not dogfights that decide the battle(like that "test"), it's missile combat from long range. Remember 20-1 kill ratio in recent ACTUAL exercises.
https://theaviationist.com/2017/02/...nce-with-a-201-kill-ratio-u-s-air-force-says/

You can't add much stealth to an F-16. Anyone who knows physics know this can't work. You can't add the systems on other jets, the software for Cold War jets can't support it.


Well, there is one gigantic 'IF" in this report.

'They also performed in an air-to-air role: although we don’t know the ROE (Rules of Engagement) in place for the drills nor the exact role played by the F-22 Raptors that teamed up with the Lightning II throughout the exercise,'

The F-22 is - apparently - much stealthier than the F-35 and is a FAR better dogfighter. Now if it was helping the F-35 and not the other aircraft, that could throw a gigantic edge to the F-35.

I am not saying the F-35 is not the better combat plane (I assume it is). But there is too much unknown information to fully determine how indicative this report is.
 
Apparently, the F-35 has one huge and one small edge over the F-16...the huge is obviously stealth and the small is avionics.

The F-16 has the edge in maneuverability (it has a much lower wing loading), top speed (Mach 1.6 to Mach 2.0), maximum ordinance (vs. F-35 internal storage - externally the F-35 has a slight edge...but loses the stealth advantage), turnaround time (stealth aircraft are apparently very difficult to maintain), battle damage repair (stealth skin is far more cumbersome to repair) and obviously a huge edge in cost.

So, in long range air combat and high altitude ground attack, the F-35 should have a large edge (it bloody well better for the huge extra cost). In close-in dog fighting, the F-16 probably has the edge. And in close in ground attack, again the F-16 should have an edge or at least be none the worse as the latter two scenarios remove stealth from the equation.

(I am comparing the F-35 to the F-16 E/F which is NOT in U.S. service but is the latest version of the F-16. However, the USAF F-16 C/D's are similar in performance).


I have said it before, I love the F-35B for the Marines - dislike the 'C' for the Navy and especially dislike the 'A' for the Air Force.
 
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The F-16 is NOT more maneuverable than the F-35. Nor is it faster in any realistic sense.

Modern aircraft in their ability in to turn isn't determined by wing loading as much. This is due to something called "fuselage lift" which lowers their wing loading value. Also lifting bodies generated from chines also improves lift in general. This is why the F-16 and the F-15 were able to crash, get a wing taken off, and still fly back home with a missing wing. The F-16 in general has a high wing loading compared to lets say a Vietnam F-4, however it gets the good manuverability due to the low drag and also fuselage lift(while the F-4 is rather a bad turner)
The F-35 and F-16 have around similar accelaration, however the F-35 has a higher angle of attack like the Super Hornet. So the F-35 is designed to be like a F-16/F-18 hybrid in terms of maneuverability.
https://theaviationist.com/2016/03/...g-in-the-f-35-a-jsf-pilot-first-hand-account/

The F-35 has a max speed of Mach 1.6....while loaded. This is since all it's fuel and weapons are loaded internally to keep stealth.(no drag) The F-16 however loads it's fuel tanks and weapons externally. So is the F-16 going Mach 2 while loaded? It can probably barely even reach Mach 1.4 with the air resistance hitting it's tanks and wings.

The F-35 can probably be defeated by a Eurofighter, an F-22, or an advanced Russian Sukhoi in dogfighting, just not the F-16 and F-18.

F-16 would be destroyed in ground attack compared to F-35 against any modern threat. The Iranians will soon be getting advanced IADS from the Russians namely the S-300 and S-400 missiles. The computers on the F-35 are all fused to have all the sensor feeds and datalinks operating in real time in a advanced wifi, so every F-35 gets to see the same picture and coordinate and plan a lot better while the F-16 is pretty much stuck with a datalink of the Cold War. Imagine using internet of the 90s, it will suck. Also with advanced computer processing you can get a lot better jamming tech to find enemy emissions and suppress them, the F-16 needs seperate tiny pods for jamming, and has only internal flares and chaff as countermeasures. Also since the F-35 has a 360 vision, it can spot missile launches all around the aircraft and cued to the helmet. Add that to the F-35 with stealth and you get a big plus.

Well, there is one gigantic 'IF" in this report.

'They also performed in an air-to-air role: although we don’t know the ROE (Rules of Engagement) in place for the drills nor the exact role played by the F-22 Raptors that teamed up with the Lightning II throughout the exercise,'

The F-22 is - apparently - much stealthier than the F-35 and is a FAR better dogfighter. Now if it was helping the F-35 and not the other aircraft, that could throw a gigantic edge to the F-35.

I am not saying the F-35 is not the better combat plane (I assume it is). But there is too much unknown information to fully determine how indicative this report is.
Well the F-22 is a better air superiority fighter absolutely. The clear advantages of the F-35 shown in this excercise to preform both air-air and air-ground at the same time is shown. This wasn't the only excericse by the way.....there were exercises were F-35 have taken on F-15Es 8-0 and still survived.

I wish we can have more F-22s, but they have proven rather expensive at only 187 is needed currently. A lot of the F-22 technology is built in the Cold War and it's very difficult to upgrade them, add that with a lack of a threat and it got it's production cut. The F-35 has a better modern wifi system which can make a swarm of them good enough for any threat add that with the ground attack capabilities and you get a good investment. It's not just speed that determines victory, but information. Once you have a very good wifi system, you can link multiple platforms better, guide missiles from warships etc. In an air superiority platform, the slower, but more advanced F-35's with their advanced sensors would feed information with real time datalinks to faster F-15s and F-22s to guide their missiles, in a "Hunter-Killer" doctrine.
 
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