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F35 review

With respect, the F-35 - cost about $25 billion to develop (I remember reading - I could be wrong...but it was WAAY up there) - before they sold one plane. The Pentagon did not just eat that. The Pentagon does not have that kind of money lying around. And that is not including the huge dough to develop the F-23. The Pentagon does not pay for development costs to private firms on weapons systems that have not yet been produced - except in token amounts. If that were the case, than the private firms could spend ANYTHING they wanted to develop the weapon and just bill the government. That is not free enterprise anymore...that is more like communism.
The private firm takes a chance, develops the plane and if they sell 'em...they make the development costs back. If they don't - they are out of luck.

That is why the F-22 and B-2 bomber costs skyrocketed when they drastically lowered the number the Pentagon bought.

Originally, the Air Force wanted 132 B-2's and around 750 F-22's. Eventually, they bought only 20 and 187, respectively. And since Congress would not let the companies sell those planes to other countries..that was it. They had to spread the MASSIVE development costs on both weapons systems over FAR less airframes (the B-2 was a bit different because it was developed in secret).

That is primarily why they mushroomed in cost.


Now it is somewhat different for the F-35 as Congress is allowing them to be sold abroad.

But America is by miles the largest purchaser. SO if they cut back procurement drastically, than the price will skyrocket.


I will put it simpler.

If the Pentagon ate all the development costs when a company enters a weapons competition...than everyone and his brother would enter the competition.

Where is the risk?


IF ALL of their development costs are going to be paid for - whether they win the contract or not...than there is nothing whatsoever to lose from trying. Yet, only 2 companies entered the F-22 program. And even those were conglomerates of several companies due to the huge risk and enormous costs involved.
Because the others knew that if they did not win that they would have to eat most of the development costs (the Pentagon pays a token amount I think to the developers). That is a huge risk.

Ah think you are wrong. Very wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Strike_Fighter_program The companies responded with proposals and then were awarded with contracts to develop the planes. Boeing and Lockheed won the proposals. McDonnell Douglas and Northrup Grumman were the other two that submitted proposals. So Lockheed and Boeing both got paid to do the development on the program.
 
Funny Stinger missiles and other MANPADS, which aren't much more than RPGs, take down planes.
Firstly a plane is already at speed so you already have an initial velocity. Secondly you don't need much endurance just the initial burst and acceleration to maneuver to the vector that the missile is coming from. Thirdly a collision at Mach 4 is going to **** up a missile. You keep thing one kind of drone and that keeps your head in a box. Drones and missiles are the same thing essentially. Primary difference, ones reusable. The typical tactic used by fighters to evade missiles is to turn 90 degrees to the missiles initial flight path and extend the chase and get the missiles to use its energy reserve. So if you have a stern chase a micro drone/missile need not much energy to intercept said missile. The drone would need a clearance charge or electric rails to clear the airframe quickly and then a another short charge to adjust to vector and then a burst to intercept the incoming missile. Those bursts can be relatively speaking massive.
A MANPAD isn't going to take down plane flying at high altitude. It can only take down helicopters and low flying jets if lucky. Down low jets have so much drag, it may not even approach Mach 1 with weapons loaded. In Afghanistan in the Soviet War, the Stinger was mostly effective against low flying Mi-25 Hind Helicopters and Su-25s NOT high flying MiG-21s.

Once again...how is a mini-drone going to catch a missile? The moment you release it at 40,000 ft. It falls to the ground....
Your idea is simply not doable. The booster would need a rather large to get any sort of range and it would be at a speed disadvantage. If the missile is hit at close range the blast would bring down the fighter.
And how would you even have any sort of guidance? There is no radar in the back of a fighter to lock on to incoming missiles. It could install a radar...It could be so small, a flash of jamming from the enemy aircraft would blind it.

It would be more simple to use missile killing missiles. You have all the speed needs. Which is what the USAF is doing.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...immed-down-sacm-air-to-air-missile-co-422413/

Intercepting something moving faster than you is very difficult. Sensors even today don't have 100% resolution and would have to manuver and adjust to hit their targets, and when you are manuvering in an atmosphere it's going to make you even slower.
The key is to be faster than the enemy.
 
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That was for the initial design phase there has been what 15+ years of development since

I would have thought that that prototype development contracts would have bought the initial development and production. What am I missing here? The rest of the on going development should be part of the program and not a significant part of the purchase of the plane.
 
I clearly understand what you mean when you say the cost goes up due to cancelled order. I never denied this problem.
Cool.

You are forgetting partner nations.
If the U.S. drastically cuts it's procurement, that will send up the cost per plane quite a bit. And that will undoubtedly cause other nations to not buy the plane - especially if they are having debt problems as well (and most of the West is in a very similar position to America - near zero interest rates, huge annual deficits, stagnating economies).

How is debt-per GDP not a factor? You are looking at debt in proportion of the economy...which is only growing up so slightly. How are you so sure of a massive disaster when the defecit has been going downwards. And do you have any proof the US economy cannot sustain a $20 Trillion debt? You say the Democrats will win....well the Democrats are not going to lower the debt by cutting back. Both Republicans and Democrats are invested in the F-35 program due to jobs in both Liberal and Republican states. Even if lets say a super hippie like Bernie Sanders wins, the Global Participation in F-35 along with Lockheed's influence with Democratic politicans is too much. And a 15 Trillion-20 Trillion increase isn't going to be some sort of Great Deppression in the government does not get that paid in time. It will be a reccession at best. And the US Military has gone through those disasters and stayed ready.
I guess I am not explaining myself properly.

First...the deficit came down from the over $1 trillion it was under GWB because as the Great Recession (G.R.) ended, tax revenues rebounded. Spending actually did not go down...but revenues went up.
Now, the nation is near 'full employment' - so there is not much more revenue to be gained without increasing taxes - and Trump is talking the opposite. So revenues will go down.
Now, he is saying that revenues will rise because the economy will rise from the present tepid roughly 2% GDP growth (only 1.2% in Q1 2017, btw) to 3%. But they do not say how. Lower taxes and regulations should help.
But they are not addressing the fundamental problems in the economy.
The home ownership rate has fallen drastically since the end of the G.R.. It is now near levels from the 1960's.

united-states-home-ownership-rate.png


https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/home-ownership-rate

The M2 Money Velocity - the amount of times money is changing hands - is the LOWEST ON RECORD...and still falling hard. And it is not because America is 'printing' SO much money. It is because no one is spending...we are living on cheap debt. That is bad.

fredgraph.png


https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2V

And there are lots of other signs as well that the nation has stagnated. Only the cheap interest rates, cheap debt and the Fed stimulating the equity markets (QE is actually still going on, they just do not call it that anymore).

America is surviving on cheap debt...but that cannot last forever.


As to the debt servicing costs?

Debt to GDP is just an average. It has nothing to do with debt servicing. The interest payments on the $20 trillion dollar national debt must be paid. They have been INCREDIBLY cheap for about a decade since the Fed lowered rates to near zero. But for every 1% they raise them up - the interest costs on that debt rise by about $200 billion. There is nothing that can be done about that. And that is added to the national budget every year.

Even if the economy stays stagnant, the budget will rise on it's own once the Fed raises interest rates back to historic norms.

It might take 5 or 10 years. But it is inevitable, imo.


The US is not cutting the F-35.

I am saying that - IMO - there is no way Congress - let alone a Democratic Congress - will fund full rate production for the F-35 (a plane most Dems do not even like - rightly or wrongly) if the national deficit is around a trillion dollars per year. Even if the economy is tepid.

And if it hits a recession...which is long overdue (thank to the Fed propping everything up with cheap money - including the stock markets)...the chances will be even worse.
 
I would have thought that that prototype development contracts would have bought the initial development and production. What am I missing here? The rest of the on going development should be part of the program and not a significant part of the purchase of the plane.

Two contracts to develop prototypes were awarded on November 16, 1996, one each to Lockheed Martin and Boeing. Each firm would produce two aircraft to demonstrate conventional takeoff and landing (CTOL), carrier takeoff and landing (CV version), and short takeoff and vertical landing (STOVL). McDonnell Douglas' bid was rejected in part due to the complexity of its design.[11] Lockheed Martin and Boeing were each given $750 million to develop their concept demonstrators and the definition of the Preferred Weapon System Concept (PWSC). The aim of this funding limit was to prevent one or both contractors from bankrupting themselves in an effort to win such an important contract.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Strike_Fighter_program
 
A MANPAD isn't going to take down plane flying at high altitude. It can only take down helicopters and low flying jets if lucky. Down low jets have so much drag, it may not even approach Mach 1 with weapons loaded. In Afghanistan in the Soviet War, the Stinger was mostly effective against low flying Mi-25 Hind Helicopters and Su-25s NOT high flying MiG-21s.

Once again...how is a mini-drone going to catch a missile? The moment you release it at 40,000 ft. It falls to the ground....
Your idea is simply not doable. The booster would need a rather large to get any sort of range and it would be at a speed disadvantage. If the missile is hit at close range the blast would bring down the fighter.
And how would you even have any sort of guidance? There is no radar in the back of a fighter to lock on to incoming missiles. It could install a radar...It could be so small, a flash of jamming from the enemy aircraft would blind it.

It would be more simple to use missile killing missiles. You have all the speed needs. Which is what the USAF is doing.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...immed-down-sacm-air-to-air-missile-co-422413/

Intercepting something moving faster than you is very difficult. Sensors even today don't have 100% resolution and would have to manuver and adjust to hit their targets, and when you are manuvering in an atmosphere it's going to make you even slower.
The key is to be faster than the enemy.

Ok.

I am getting bored. Bye.
 
Your going to need to explain because I am not getting what you are trying to say. That says that Lockheed and Boeing were paid to develop and build the prototype planes. So building the prototypes means they don't figure out how to produce the planes??

Certainly not

They were prototypes not production ready planes. They were proof of concept regarding STOVL systems and aerodynamics. If they had developed completed production ready planes they would have been in operation over a decade ago. A lot of things have changed in the F35 from that time until now, not the least of which is the software
 
Ah think you are wrong. Very wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Strike_Fighter_program The companies responded with proposals and then were awarded with contracts to develop the planes. Boeing and Lockheed won the proposals. McDonnell Douglas and Northrup Grumman were the other two that submitted proposals. So Lockheed and Boeing both got paid to do the development on the program.

Actually, normally - I am right...very right.

But apparently, the Pentagon made an exception with the JSF that I just found:

'One major departure from previous projects was the prohibition of the companies from using their own money to finance development. Each was awarded $750 million to produce their two aircraft – including avionics, software and hardware. This limitation promoted the adoption of low cost manufacturing and assembly techniques, and also prevented either Boeing or Lockheed Martin from bankrupting themselves in an effort to win such an important contest.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-32

Having typed that. I still remember reading that the F-35 will cost about $25 billion to develop. But maybe that was total development costs over it's entire lifetime.

Nevertheless, it appears you are at least partially right and I, at least, partially wrong on this.

However, this still changes nothing with development costs rising per unit if less airframes are bought...as the total cost to develop the airplane seems to be ongoing, not front loaded.


Either way, I will have to do more research on it.
 
Actually, normally - I am right...very right.

But apparently, the Pentagon made an exception with the JSF that I just found:

'One major departure from previous projects was the prohibition of the companies from using their own money to finance development. Each was awarded $750 million to produce their two aircraft – including avionics, software and hardware. This limitation promoted the adoption of low cost manufacturing and assembly techniques, and also prevented either Boeing or Lockheed Martin from bankrupting themselves in an effort to win such an important contest.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-32

Having typed that. I still remember reading that the F-35 will cost about $25 billion to develop. But maybe that was total development costs over it's entire lifetime.

Nevertheless, it appears you are at least partially right and I, at least, partially wrong on this.

However, I still find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that to develop and build the prototype F-35 cost only $750 million.

I will have to do more research on it.

It probably cost that for EACH company. Anything extra either got ate by the company or padded into the program. They did this same thing with the F-22 program with the fly off between it and the F-23. The Northrup people are STILL pissed about that one because they KNOW they had a much better plane. I don't know myself. Who knows. Definitely not me.
 
Certainly not

They were prototypes not production ready planes. They were proof of concept regarding STOVL systems and aerodynamics. If they had developed completed production ready planes they would have been in operation over a decade ago. A lot of things have changed in the F35 from that time until now, not the least of which is the software

See I don't get that. You are building a prototype plane in hopes of getting a contract to build the thing, why would you not have figured out how you were going to build it and have at least one line of tooling ready to roll so you can produce the things straight away?
 
See I don't get that. You are building a prototype plane in hopes of getting a contract to build the thing, why would you not have figured out how you were going to build it and have at least one line of tooling ready to roll so you can produce the things straight away?

You are not going to have the tooling in place as you might not get the contract. Secondly alot of the parts are sourced from secondary suppliers.

Then they had to divide where parts are going to be made across the US and other countries for political support. Then comes the design changes in the airframe, construction materials including the stealth coating which was coming off at high speeds at altitude
 
See I don't get that. You are building a prototype plane in hopes of getting a contract to build the thing, why would you not have figured out how you were going to build it and have at least one line of tooling ready to roll so you can produce the things straight away?

BTW - when I said 'normally I am right - very right.'

I did NOT mean about normal things.

I STRICTLY meant about procurement costs on military projects.

I just say that because I just rad it and it looked like a staggeringly arrogant thing to say.

I freely admit I am wrong on a daily/hourly basis.
 
You are not understanding how manufacturing and upgrading fighters work.

Roger this. Knowing how they are designed and manufactured is not something one is going to learn on Cable News where it always morphs into group think. Sort of Goldingish.
 
You are not going to have the tooling in place as you might not get the contract. Secondly alot of the parts are sourced from secondary suppliers.

Then they had to divide where parts are going to be made across the US and other countries for political support. Then comes the design changes in the airframe, construction materials including the stealth coating which was coming off at high speeds at altitude

A few years ago we were tasked to track down all the tooling for the F22.. the pentagon wanted to know how long it would take to tool-up. As has been published more than 20% of the tooling is broken, corroded, or missing.
 
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