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The Case for Enhancing US Military Might

Maintenance and training budgets. Part and parcel of the ill conceived sequestration of the previous administration / congress.

The nation asks, demands more like it, of the service members to lay down their lives in conflicts and humanitarian roles, placed them in harms way when called upon and the nation can't / doesn't even properly train and equipment them for the demands made on them? That's just a bull**** deal.

I think it's more a function of the military being asked to do too much for too long... maintenance and training get pushed to the side when operational costs take precedence. That's just the way it works. The only way to get around it is to lighten the military burden by either expanding enlistment or reducing operational costs by reducing our active military commitments.
 
I think it's more a function of the military being asked to do too much for too long... maintenance and training get pushed to the side when operational costs take precedence. That's just the way it works. The only way to get around it is to lighten the military burden by either expanding enlistment or reducing operational costs by reducing our active military commitments.

Fair.

But I don't think that enlistment is the issue. I think that the age and condition of the equipment is, but I agree that there's a mismatch between what the military is being provided and what the military is being committed to, and yes, reducing the commitments is one part of the formula, but its one that doesn't seem to be the one going down, but rather being escalated, as we fined ourselves in a long term, and necessary, conflict with Islamic militant extremism.
 
Fair.

But I don't think that enlistment is the issue. I think that the age and condition of the equipment is, but I agree that there's a mismatch between what the military is being provided and what the military is being committed to, and yes, reducing the commitments is one part of the formula, but its one that doesn't seem to be the one going down, but rather being escalated, as we fined ourselves in a long term, and necessary, conflict with Islamic militant extremism.

Fighting Islamic extremism doesn't require a big conventional footprint, though. It's not like a big Reagan-style Cold War military waiting for the Soviets to cross over into the Fulda Gap with nothing to fill the time but train and do maintenance. We need a military that's lean, mean, and dispersed. That means more emphasis on intelligence and surveillance, logistical support and pinpoint raids by Special Forces... and probably less emphasis on more traditional muscle-bound conventional options like armored, artillery, and infantry units.
 
Fighting Islamic extremism doesn't require a big conventional footprint, though. It's not like a big Reagan-style Cold War military waiting for the Soviets to cross over into the Fulda Gap with nothing to fill the time but train and do maintenance. We need a military that's lean, mean, and dispersed. That means more emphasis on intelligence and surveillance, logistical support and pinpoint raids by Special Forces... and probably less emphasis on more traditional muscle-bound conventional options like armored, artillery, and infantry units.

The force you envision requires significant investments in intelligence, logistics and tactical mobility. Personnel will be expensive too.
 
The force you envision requires significant investments in intelligence, logistics and tactical mobility. Personnel will be expensive too.

Agreed... now we come to the crux of the matter. How much ought we be spending on National Defense? I've done a little analysis on Federal Budgets going back to the Carter Administration, and here is how average spending (by function) as a percentage of GDP looked for each Administration (with the Trump Administration's projections going forward):

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Each Administration is color-coded, and a President's second term spending (where applicable) is dotted. Ideally, I'd like to have Defense spending at about the 4% of GDP level... however, our domestic economic situation is somewhat less than ideal, so whatever spending level we decide on will probably have to be considerably less than that, probably in the 3-4% range.
 

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Fighting Islamic extremism doesn't require a big conventional footprint, though. It's not like a big Reagan-style Cold War military waiting for the Soviets to cross over into the Fulda Gap with nothing to fill the time but train and do maintenance. We need a military that's lean, mean, and dispersed. That means more emphasis on intelligence and surveillance, logistical support and pinpoint raids by Special Forces... and probably less emphasis on more traditional muscle-bound conventional options like armored, artillery, and infantry units.

Agreed. While it may not be as large a foot print in any one or two or three locations, there are far far more locations though that no one's ever heard of, Niger, for example.
 
Agreed. While it may not be as large a foot print in any one or two or three locations, there are far far more locations though that no one's ever heard of, Niger, for example.

I actually think this strategic shift is what is behind Trump's amping up the pressure on North Korea. On one hand, he's escalating the tensions in the region, but on the other, he's doing nothing to increase our military capabilities in the region. I think it's a ploy to get our allies in the region - namely Japan and South Korea - to assume a greater role in their own defense while we re-focus our own toward a much different kind of foe. I've been watching Donald Trump for a few decades now... and what I've found is that his hands and his mouth tell two very different stories. Where he talks the loudest, he acts the least... and where he talks the least, he acts the most. If you ever want to find someone's "tell", forget about what they say...just watch their hands.
 
I actually think this strategic shift is what is behind Trump's amping up the pressure on North Korea. On one hand, he's escalating the tensions in the region, but on the other, he's doing nothing to increase our military capabilities in the region. I think it's a ploy to get our allies in the region - namely Japan and South Korea - to assume a greater role in their own defense while we re-focus our own toward a much different kind of foe.

I've been watching Donald Trump for a few decades now... and what I've found is that his hands and his mouth tell two very different stories. Where he talks the loudest, he acts the least... and where he talks the least, he acts the most. If you ever want to find someone's "tell", forget about what they say...just watch their hands.

Well, there are 3 carrier groups in theater, but on a permanent basis, I think it right that each nation should have a greater role in their own defense.

Hmm. I'll have to watch that about Trump going forward.
 
Well, there are 3 carrier groups in theater, but on a permanent basis, I think it right that each nation should have a greater role in their own defense.

Hmm. I'll have to watch that about Trump going forward.

There's only really two... the Roosevelt is transiting on it's way to a Middle East deployment. If Trump were serious about stirring things up with North Korea, he would be evacuating dependents, bolstering our capabilities and sending a carrier group into the Yellow Sea. That he hasn't done any of these things is the surest sign that he's all talk.
 
There's only really two... the Roosevelt is transiting on it's way to a Middle East deployment. If Trump were serious about stirring things up with North Korea, he would be evacuating dependents, bolstering our capabilities and sending a carrier group into the Yellow Sea. That he hasn't done any of these things is the surest sign that he's all talk.

That's a credible explanation. There are other credible explanations as well. For example, the US military is at a relatively low state of readiness considering the number of planes that don't fly, pilots no longer in the service, ships that aren't ready for combat, and forces in general that haven't sufficiently trained. An increase in readiness isn't achieved overnight.
 
Well, there are 3 carrier groups in theater, but on a permanent basis, I think it right that each nation should have a greater role in their own defense.

Hmm. I'll have to watch that about Trump going forward.

Greetings, Erik. :2wave:

Cordelier is apparently reading Trump's body language, so all I can say is that it's a good thing that we can't see each other on here as we post, isn't it? :thumbs: :lamo
 
That's a credible explanation. There are other credible explanations as well. For example, the US military is at a relatively low state of readiness considering the number of planes that don't fly, pilots no longer in the service, ships that aren't ready for combat, and forces in general that haven't sufficiently trained. An increase in readiness isn't achieved overnight.

Isn't that just another way of saying that the President is writing checks that the military is unable to cash?
 
There's only really two... the Roosevelt is transiting on it's way to a Middle East deployment. If Trump were serious about stirring things up with North Korea, he would be evacuating dependents, bolstering our capabilities and sending a carrier group into the Yellow Sea. That he hasn't done any of these things is the surest sign that he's all talk.

OK. Two carrier groups then. Still, that is a lot of capability just cruising around relatively near by.

One of the NK leverage points is the civilian population in Seoul and the NK deployment of huge artillery forces. Evacuating the civilians from Seoul would remove / lessen that at the cost of both economic losses and a significant escalation.
 
Greetings, Erik. :2wave:

Cordelier is apparently reading Trump's body language, so all I can say is that it's a good thing that we can't see each other on here as we post, isn't it? :thumbs: :lamo

*L* It's especially good for me.

Seriously, though, I think President Bush called it right when he said Trump was a blowhard. He talks the talk, but he doesn't walk the walk. When Saddam rolled in Kuwait, President Bush came out and said it clearly... he wasn't going to let aggression stand. Straight and to the point. He said what he meant and he meant what he said. There was no song and dance about it. No need for bluster. That was Saddam's style. Now it's Trump's. President Bush knows a blowhard when he sees one.
 
OK. Two carrier groups then. Still, that is a lot of capability just cruising around relatively near by.

One of the NK leverage points is the civilian population in Seoul and the NK deployment of huge artillery forces. Evacuating the civilians from Seoul would remove / lessen that at the cost of both economic losses and a significant escalation.

It'd also destroy the South Korean economy in the process. It'd be the equivalent of us evacuating the whole Eastern seaboard. I think from a foreign policy perspective, we need to be following South Korea's lead where it comes to dealing with the North. It's their neighborhood. It's their country on the line. If we get out in front of Seoul on this issue, I think we're going to find ourselves going out on a limb and sawing it off behind us.
 
It'd also destroy the South Korean economy in the process. It'd be the equivalent of us evacuating the whole Eastern seaboard. I think from a foreign policy perspective, we need to be following South Korea's lead where it comes to dealing with the North. It's their neighborhood. It's their country on the line. If we get out in front of Seoul on this issue, I think we're going to find ourselves going out on a limb and sawing it off behind us.

A fair analogy. I rather doubt that any significant action is taken without support for it from a number of allies in theater, because, as you correctly pointed out, It's their neighborhood. It's their country on the line.

Suffice it to say that further appeasement isn't an option. Look where its gotten the region to date. Further appeasement is only going to make the situation worse.
 
Isn't that just another way of saying that the President is writing checks that the military is unable to cash?

Secretary Mattis thinks our defense is depleted as a result of sequestration. I think he's correct. So far, Trump hasn't written any checks, so one could also say that Trump is putting pressure on Congress to step up to the plate and fully fund our military. Maybe they are the ones who need to write a check or two. It took over a decade for the military to reach it's current state, and it may take that long - or longer - to get it back up to speed.
 
A fair analogy. I rather doubt that any significant action is taken without support for it from a number of allies in theater, because, as you correctly pointed out, It's their neighborhood. It's their country on the line.

Suffice it to say that further appeasement isn't an option. Look where its gotten the region to date. Further appeasement is only going to make the situation worse.

I agree, but I have to point out that if Kim can land a nuke on our western coast, it's our country on the line too. That includes Hawaii, Guam and our other Pacific bases.
 
I agree, but I have to point out that if Kim can land a nuke on our western coast, it's our country on the line too. That includes Hawaii, Guam and our other Pacific bases.

True, hence the US is in the middle of the situation, and rightfully so.

If NK lobs a nuke and even comes close, there'll be hell to pay, and rightfully so. Therefore, I don't think that Kim Yong-un is that stupid to actually execute that act.

In the regime's history, it's been 50 some years or so of developing weapons, showing them off, and making economic demands, getting those concessions, and developing even more capable weapons to demand even more concessions.

It would logically follow that he expects the same pattern to continue, except that this president isn't playing that game, and nor should he.
Looks where that pattern has gotten the region? AN ever more belligerent and threatening NK. Enough of that already. Time to neuter NK and Kim Yong-un for a longer term basis.
 
True, hence the US is in the middle of the situation, and rightfully so.

If NK lobs a nuke and even comes close, there'll be hell to pay, and rightfully so. Therefore, I don't think that Kim Yong-un is that stupid to actually execute that act.

In the regime's history, it's been 50 some years or so of developing weapons, showing them off, and making economic demands, getting those concessions, and developing even more capable weapons to demand even more concessions.

It would logically follow that he expects the same pattern to continue, except that this president isn't playing that game, and nor should he.
Looks where that pattern has gotten the region? AN ever more belligerent and threatening NK. Enough of that already. Time to neuter NK and Kim Yong-un for a longer term basis.

The Korean Peninsula should be nuclear free. I think China would want that. NK is their child, no matter how inconvenient that truth is for China at times.
 
The Korean Peninsula should be nuclear free. I think China would want that. NK is their child, no matter how inconvenient that truth is for China at times.

I agree. The Korean Peninsula should be nuclear weapon free. Have all the electrical generation you want. That's fine by me. Nothing weapons grade, and nothing that can produce weapons grade, such as a breeder.

NK isn't China's child, and if you wanted to use that analogy, then it'd be a very temperamental toddler used to throwing an tantrum and getting it's way.

Even such a child has to grow up and find out the world doesn't work that way.

Whether China can help that realization along, and will help that realization along, now that's the real question, especially so if they can achieve that before Kim Yung-un lobs a live nuclear warhead someplace.

Once that's done, I do believe the responses will be from the national autonomic nervous system, and not the conscious nervous system.
 
I think it's more a function of the military being asked to do too much for too long... maintenance and training get pushed to the side when operational costs take precedence.

But there comes a point where no amount of maintenance will help. The equipment is simply old.

There is a reason companies like FedEx and UPS generally replace their vehicles after 5 years. It literally gets to the point where maintaining the older equipment takes more work (and ultimately money) than simply replacing them. And that is the point we are at now. As soon as we fix one part, another part breaks.

And for a great deal of this equipment, it has not been made in decades. So we are paying civilian contractors to "re-manufacture" the old parts, which is never as good as the original. And by now, a great many coming back as replacement parts have been rebuilt 4 and 5 times.

One of my Privates and I walked the motor pool this weekend to inspect the M-998 HMMWVs (we had 5 of them). And I asked him to point out the ones that were younger than he was. He thought I was pulling his leg (he is 22), until after checking all 5, the newest one was built in 1989 (the oldest in 1986).

Yes, maintenance can be pushed back. But you can also only push back actual replacement for only so long.

Fighting Islamic extremism doesn't require a big conventional footprint, though. It's not like a big Reagan-style Cold War military waiting for the Soviets to cross over into the Fulda Gap with nothing to fill the time but train and do maintenance. We need a military that's lean, mean, and dispersed. That means more emphasis on intelligence and surveillance, logistical support and pinpoint raids by Special Forces... and probably less emphasis on more traditional muscle-bound conventional options like armored, artillery, and infantry units.

Most of the equipment in use during the early Reagan era was younger than what the military is expected to use today.

For example, the M1A1 was built from 1980-1996. That means the newest one is 21 years old, the oldest one is 37 years old.

Now let's pick a year from the first Reagan administration, say 1983. What was the main battle tank at that point?

Well, that would be some variant of the M60 Pershing. First fielded in 1961. By 1983, they were 22 years old.

Just think about what that means. The oldest M60 Tank at about the half-way point of Reagan's first term were the age of the newest M1A1 tank in use today.

And no, we do not need a military that's "lean and mean". We have tried that, and it has failed. Lean and mean means that you do not have the manpower and equipment for any kind of sustained operations. That is why even to this day your average PATRIOT crewman spends 1 in 3 years deployed. And people have been getting completely burned out doing 3 deployments in 6 years.

And when equipment breaks down or is lost, there is not enough to replace it so we have holes in our equipment rosters.

Agreed... now we come to the crux of the matter. How much ought we be spending on National Defense? I've done a little analysis on Federal Budgets going back to the Carter Administration, and here is how average spending (by function) as a percentage of GDP looked for each Administration (with the Trump Administration's projections going forward):

Ahhhh, the Robert MacNamera Bean Counting School of Defense.

You know how well that worked out last time, right?

I actually think this strategic shift is what is behind Trump's amping up the pressure on North Korea. On one hand, he's escalating the tensions in the region, but on the other, he's doing nothing to increase our military capabilities in the region.

You have not seen the increased deployments in the region? The increasing of both THAAD and PATRIOT in Japan and South Korea? The increased Naval presence in the region?

But yes, there is little he is really doing to increase the military or military presence. And that is simply because he can't.

He is still working off of the last budget of the Obama Administration.

It is not until next year that he can really start to make changes in budget, allocation, and manpower. Until then, he is stuck using what he was left by the last administration. That is why a great many (like me) have delayed reenlisting until now, to see what the new budget would allow.
 
Why we must raise defense spending
Robert J. Samuelson · Editorial-Opinion · Dec 10, 2017

The Pentagon and the welfare state have been locked in brutal combat for decades, and the Pentagon has gotten clobbered. Protecting the country was once the first obligation of government. No more. Welfare programs — Social Security, Medicare, food stamps and other benefits — dwarf defense spending. As a result, we have become more vulnerable.
Here is the assessment of Mackenzie Eaglen, a defense specialist at the right-leaning American Enterprise Institute:
“The United States now fields a military that could not meet even the requirements of a benign Clinton-era world. The services have watched their relative overmatch and capacity decline in almost every domain of warfare . . . for nearly two decades. As rival nation-states have accelerated their force development, the Department of Defense has stalled out, creating a dangerous window of relative military advantage for potential foes. . . . While the United States continues to field the best military personnel in the world, policy makers have asked them to do too much with too little for too long.”. . . .
In the competition for scarce public funds, the military-industrial complex is at a distinct disadvantage with the welfare state, an essential and permanent part of our social fabric. No one is going to dismantle it. But the favoritism toward the welfare state weakens the military. It is time to recognize and rectify this bias because it poses a fundamental threat to our collective well-being.
 
I had thought of starting a thread but decided to insert John McCain at this thread for a couple of reasons.

One is that the event is a celebration of Sen. McCain the lifelong public servant so that is what it should always remain. The award and honors given Sen. McCain should not become a thread about John McCain's strengths and weaknesses but, rather, to recognize his service to the country and our people over a lifetime.

John McCain comes from a Navy family, is a grad of USNA Annapolis, was a POW; retired with the rank of Captain. Elected from his state to the U.S. House, U.S. Senate and is currently chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee. Sen. McCain was nominated by his party to be Potus.



Army Chief of Staff Salutes Senator McCain In Special Military Honors Celebration

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Army Chief of Staff General Mark A. Milley salutes Senator John McCain at Ft. Myer Va., during a special honors presentation November 17, 2017. Gen. Milley recognized Sen. John S. McCain for his 60 plus years of outstanding dedicated service to the nation and the U.S. military in an Army Tattoo, "Salute from the Chief", on Joint Base Myer-Henderson Hall, performed by the 3rd Infantry Regiment The Old Guard of the Army. (Photo Credit: U.S. Army photo by John Martinez)


JOINT BASE MYER-HENDERSON HALL, Va. -- The Army recognized Sen. John S. McCain for his efforts in strengthening America's national security, eliminating wasteful government spending, and assisting in government reform.

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Sen. McCain gives the grateful capacity audience his thumbs up after receiving salute by the Army 3rd Infantry Regiment Commander in Chief Guard, Conmy Hall at Ft. Myer in suburban Washington. The Commander in Chief Guard replicates Gen. Washington's select personal guard during the War of Independence.


Chief of Staff of the Army Gen. Mark A. Milley presented McCain with the Outstanding Civilian Service Medal for his lifetime in service to America, both as a representative for the people of Arizona in the U.S. Congress and as a retired U.S. Navy captain.

https://www.army.mil/article/196980


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Photos of the John McCain Awards Tattoo at Ft. Myer:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/theoldguard/sets/72157690621462056/
 
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