Presidents/civilians and saluting

Skeptic Bob · Jan 22, 2017

So I noticed during the military review Trump was saluting the Flag as opposed to placing his hand over his heart, as Pence did. I had never seen that. Generally the only people who salute the Flag are military or other uniformed people like police, but only in uniform.

Generally you only see the President salute when returning a salute. So after I saw Trump do that I did some googling. Apparently Presidents saluting at all is a recent tradition that appears to have begun with Reagan. Reagan was the first to return the salutes. Later Presidents continued the tradition. So I guess if Trump wants to start the tradition of Presidents saluting the Flag then that is his prerogative. But it just feels a little weird to me. Maybe because I served in the Army 20 years and am set in my ways.

And on a related note, it has never been clear cut which civilians should be saluted by military members. When I was in the Army the regs said the only civilian you were required to salute was the Presidents. But when googling I found an order from the Secretary of the Air Force ordering all Airmen to salute the President, VP, SECDEF, and Service Secretaries as well.

And when I worked in embassies the Marine Security Guards would often salute the Ambassador when he or she first entered the embassy that day.

I don't want this thread to become politicized. I just thought it would be fun to discuss everyone's different opinions and interpretations on who should be saluting whom.

AlbqOwl · Jan 23, 2017

BrewerBob said:
So I noticed during the military review Trump was saluting the Flag as opposed to placing his hand over his heart, as Pence did. I had never seen that. Generally the only people who salute the Flag are military or other uniformed people like police, but only in uniform.

Generally you only see the President salute when returning a salute. So after I saw Trump do that I did some googling. Apparently Presidents saluting at all is a recent tradition that appears to have begun with Reagan. Reagan was the first to return the salutes. Later Presidents continued the tradition. So I guess if Trump wants to start the tradition of Presidents saluting the Flag then that is his prerogative. But it just feels a little weird to me. Maybe because I served in the Army 20 years and am set in my ways.

And on a related note, it has never been clear cut which civilians should be saluted by military members. When I was in the Army the regs said the only civilian you were required to salute was the Presidents. But when googling I found an order from the Secretary of the Air Force ordering all Airmen to salute the President, VP, SECDEF, and Service Secretaries as well.

And when I worked in embassies the Marine Security Guards would often salute the Ambassador when he or she first entered the embassy that day.

I don't want this thread to become politicized. I just thought it would be fun to discuss everyone's different opinions and interpretations on who should be saluting whom.

I don't know who started the tradition of the President saluting, but I know it goes back as far at least as Truman. The President is Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. So it seems to me, he is entitled to salute whatever he wants to salute.

justabubba · Jan 23, 2017

BrewerBob said:
So I noticed during the military review Trump was saluting the Flag as opposed to placing his hand over his heart, as Pence did. I had never seen that. Generally the only people who salute the Flag are military or other uniformed people like police, but only in uniform.

Generally you only see the President salute when returning a salute. So after I saw Trump do that I did some googling. Apparently Presidents saluting at all is a recent tradition that appears to have begun with Reagan. Reagan was the first to return the salutes. Later Presidents continued the tradition. So I guess if Trump wants to start the tradition of Presidents saluting the Flag then that is his prerogative. But it just feels a little weird to me. Maybe because I served in the Army 20 years and am set in my ways.

And on a related note, it has never been clear cut which civilians should be saluted by military members. When I was in the Army the regs said the only civilian you were required to salute was the Presidents. But when googling I found an order from the Secretary of the Air Force ordering all Airmen to salute the President, VP, SECDEF, and Service Secretaries as well.

And when I worked in embassies the Marine Security Guards would often salute the Ambassador when he or she first entered the embassy that day.

I don't want this thread to become politicized. I just thought it would be fun to discuss everyone's different opinions and interpretations on who should be saluting whom.

i am in your old school camp

it seems that the presidents who never served are the ones who do not understand the saluting protocol

Skeptic Bob · Jan 23, 2017

AlbqOwl said:
I don't know who started the tradition of the President saluting, but I know it goes back as far at least as Truman. The President is Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. So it seems to me, he is entitled to salute whatever he wants to salute.

I can't find any photos of Truman saluting, except for one where he is returning the salute of a little child. If you know of one I would love a link as all my searching indicates Reagan was the first.

vesper · Jan 23, 2017

Here is a link that might clear things up.

http://armedforcesmuseum.com/history-of-the-military-salute/

Lutherf · Jan 23, 2017

BrewerBob said:
So I noticed during the military review Trump was saluting the Flag as opposed to placing his hand over his heart, as Pence did. I had never seen that. Generally the only people who salute the Flag are military or other uniformed people like police, but only in uniform.

Generally you only see the President salute when returning a salute. So after I saw Trump do that I did some googling. Apparently Presidents saluting at all is a recent tradition that appears to have begun with Reagan. Reagan was the first to return the salutes. Later Presidents continued the tradition. So I guess if Trump wants to start the tradition of Presidents saluting the Flag then that is his prerogative. But it just feels a little weird to me. Maybe because I served in the Army 20 years and am set in my ways.

And on a related note, it has never been clear cut which civilians should be saluted by military members. When I was in the Army the regs said the only civilian you were required to salute was the Presidents. But when googling I found an order from the Secretary of the Air Force ordering all Airmen to salute the President, VP, SECDEF, and Service Secretaries as well.

And when I worked in embassies the Marine Security Guards would often salute the Ambassador when he or she first entered the embassy that day.

I don't want this thread to become politicized. I just thought it would be fun to discuss everyone's different opinions and interpretations on who should be saluting whom.

I saluted officers and Presidents....and some guy in Honduras that had all kinds of stuff on his uniform that may or may not have been indicative of rank but it was impressive enough that I saluted.

As far as civilians saluting stuff, I'm not particularly concerned as long as they are showing respect. If, during the National Anthem (or Taps) a civilian chooses to salute instead of put their hand over their heart I don't care in the least. If they're talking on their phone or taking a selfie I get pissed off.

AlbqOwl · Jan 23, 2017

BrewerBob said:
I can't find any photos of Truman saluting, except for one where he is returning the salute of a little child. If you know of one I would love a link as all my searching indicates Reagan was the first.

I don't have a photo sorry. I just recall a passage from a Truman biography I read years ago. Truman was thrust into the Presidency upon the death of FDR and had no training in the protocols. And he recalls coming upon a young military guy--don't remember what service--who came to attention and snapped him a salute. As I recall it, Truman at first didn't know how to handle that, but figured he was Commander in Chief so he snapped a salute back to him. Truman was in active duty in WWI so probably had his salute down pretty well.

I don't remember which biography the passage was in.

But one of my favorite Truman quotes was this one:

When you get to be President, there are all those things, the honors, the twenty-one gun salutes, all those things. You have to remember it isn’t for you. It’s for the Presidency.

vesper · Jan 23, 2017

BrewerBob said:
So I noticed during the military review Trump was saluting the Flag as opposed to placing his hand over his heart, as Pence did. I had never seen that. Generally the only people who salute the Flag are military or other uniformed people like police, but only in uniform.

Generally you only see the President salute when returning a salute. So after I saw Trump do that I did some googling. Apparently Presidents saluting at all is a recent tradition that appears to have begun with Reagan. Reagan was the first to return the salutes. Later Presidents continued the tradition. So I guess if Trump wants to start the tradition of Presidents saluting the Flag then that is his prerogative. But it just feels a little weird to me. Maybe because I served in the Army 20 years and am set in my ways.

And on a related note, it has never been clear cut which civilians should be saluted by military members. When I was in the Army the regs said the only civilian you were required to salute was the Presidents. But when googling I found an order from the Secretary of the Air Force ordering all Airmen to salute the President, VP, SECDEF, and Service Secretaries as well.

And when I worked in embassies the Marine Security Guards would often salute the Ambassador when he or she first entered the embassy that day.

I don't want this thread to become politicized. I just thought it would be fun to discuss everyone's different opinions and interpretations on who should be saluting whom.

If you truly didn't want this thread to be politicized, you would have done your own homework on the history of the salute.

Skeptic Bob · Jan 23, 2017

vesper said:
If you truly didn't want this thread to be politicized, you would have done your own homework on the history of the salute.

I am familiar with the history of the salute. But there are several situations not covered by regulations and hence may be treated differently by different people. So since you weren't paying attention, let me restate the purpose of this thread.

I just thought it would be fun to discuss everyone's different opinions and interpretations on who should be saluting whom.

I'm sorry if you are incapable of doing something as simple as that without politicizing it.

Kal'Stang · Jan 23, 2017

BrewerBob said:
So I noticed during the military review Trump was saluting the Flag as opposed to placing his hand over his heart, as Pence did. I had never seen that. Generally the only people who salute the Flag are military or other uniformed people like police, but only in uniform.

Generally you only see the President salute when returning a salute. So after I saw Trump do that I did some googling. Apparently Presidents saluting at all is a recent tradition that appears to have begun with Reagan. Reagan was the first to return the salutes. Later Presidents continued the tradition. So I guess if Trump wants to start the tradition of Presidents saluting the Flag then that is his prerogative. But it just feels a little weird to me. Maybe because I served in the Army 20 years and am set in my ways.

And on a related note, it has never been clear cut which civilians should be saluted by military members. When I was in the Army the regs said the only civilian you were required to salute was the Presidents. But when googling I found an order from the Secretary of the Air Force ordering all Airmen to salute the President, VP, SECDEF, and Service Secretaries as well.

And when I worked in embassies the Marine Security Guards would often salute the Ambassador when he or she first entered the embassy that day.

I don't want this thread to become politicized. I just thought it would be fun to discuss everyone's different opinions and interpretations on who should be saluting whom.

Depending on whats going on I'll either salute the flag or cover my heart with my hand/hat. I've never served. To me it is a sign of respect. On clear nights I'll even sometimes snap a salute towards the moon knowing that there's a flag up there and also knowing that not many people would consider doing so. I figure that it deserves a little respect from time to time also.

vesper · Jan 23, 2017

BrewerBob said:
I am familiar with the history of the salute. But there are several situations not covered by regulations and hence may be treated differently by different people. So since you weren't paying attention, let me restate the purpose of this thread.

I'm sorry if you are incapable of doing something as simple as that without politicizing it.

Oh I was paying attention alright and even able to read between your lines.

VanceMack · Jan 23, 2017

He is the commander in chief. It would not be inappropriate for him to salute.

Also..about 4 years ago there was a protocol change regarding retired servicemembers. It is now considered appropriate for retired servicemen and women to salute, even in civilian clothes. Its taken me a while to get used to going back to the salute vs the hand over the heart.

Skeptic Bob · Jan 23, 2017

VanceMack said:
He is the commander in chief. It would not be inappropriate for him to salute.

Also..about 4 years ago there was a protocol change regarding retired servicemembers. It is now considered appropriate for retired servicemen and women to salute, even in civilian clothes. Its taken me a while to get used to going back to the salute vs the hand over the heart.

Yeah, that new protocol came out right as I was retiring. I tend to only take advantage of it if I am at a military oriented event as I don't like to draw attention to myself. Hmm. Makes me wonder if people like Senator McCain are now taking advantage of it. I was at an embassy event with McCain back around 2006 in Cambodia and he wasn't saluting. Though I did salute him coming off the plane because I was in uniform and it felt like the right thing to do.

Chomsky · Jan 23, 2017

I'm a civilian that never served. I do not salute. It strikes me as inappropriate for a civilian to salute. I'll save that gesture for the guys that earned it.

But I very proudly & honorably place my hand over my heart during the anthem or pledge, and you'll never see a hat on my head then, either.

Redress · Jan 23, 2017

Lutherf said:
I saluted officers and Presidents....and some guy in Honduras that had all kinds of stuff on his uniform that may or may not have been indicative of rank but it was impressive enough that I saluted.

As far as civilians saluting stuff, I'm not particularly concerned as long as they are showing respect. If, during the National Anthem (or Taps) a civilian chooses to salute instead of put their hand over their heart I don't care in the least. If they're talking on their phone or taking a selfie I get pissed off.

You got to meet presidents while serving? Way cool! I got to (very briefly) meet Vice President Quayle(who came off as kinda cool actually), but no presidents.

And kinda like you said: as long as the president is not acting like a douche, I am not going to worry about whether he salutes or whatever. Just not a big deal to me.

Lutherf · Jan 23, 2017

Redress said:
You got to meet presidents while serving? Way cool! I got to (very briefly) meet Vice President Quayle(who came off as kinda cool actually), but no presidents.

And kinda like you said: as long as the president is not acting like a douche, I am not going to worry about whether he salutes or whatever. Just not a big deal to me.

Reagan landed at our base. Meeting him is probably overstating the facts but I did get to see him get off the plane and stood crowd control as he drove off base.

RetiredUSN · Jan 23, 2017

Civilians get a pass with me as far as honors go. Many just don't understand the etiquette and protocols.

Obama's supposed goof of not saluting the young Marine was actually a "act of class" when he realized what he did, and immediately came back off the Helo and saluted him.

apdst · Jan 24, 2017

BrewerBob said:
So I noticed during the military review Trump was saluting the Flag as opposed to placing his hand over his heart, as Pence did. I had never seen that. Generally the only people who salute the Flag are military or other uniformed people like police, but only in uniform.

Generally you only see the President salute when returning a salute. So after I saw Trump do that I did some googling. Apparently Presidents saluting at all is a recent tradition that appears to have begun with Reagan. Reagan was the first to return the salutes. Later Presidents continued the tradition. So I guess if Trump wants to start the tradition of Presidents saluting the Flag then that is his prerogative. But it just feels a little weird to me. Maybe because I served in the Army 20 years and am set in my ways.

[/b]And on a related note, it has never been clear cut which civilians should be saluted by military members. When I was in the Army the regs said the only civilian you were required to salute was the Presidents[/b]. But when googling I found an order from the Secretary of the Air Force ordering all Airmen to salute the President, VP, SECDEF, and Service Secretaries as well.

And when I worked in embassies the Marine Security Guards would often salute the Ambassador when he or she first entered the embassy that day.

I don't want this thread to become politicized. I just thought it would be fun to discuss everyone's different opinions and interpretations on who should be saluting whom.

The President, Vice President, members of Congress, the SecDef all rate a salute.

Skeptic Bob · Jan 24, 2017

apdst said:
The President, Vice President, members of Congress, the SecDef all rate a salute.

Members of Congress? That's a new one to me. I dealt with dozens of CODELs in my embassy days and the only ones I, or the Field and Flag grade officers around me, ever saluted were Senators McCain and Inouye. McCain because he was a retired military officer and POW, and Inouye because he was a MoH recipient. Granted, technically you are only supposed to salute MoH recipients when they are wearing the Medal, but most military folks ignore that rule/guideline.

So are you saying the rule is to salute members of Congress or that's the way it should be?

If you think they should be then why not SCOTUS Justices?

apdst · Jan 24, 2017

BrewerBob said:
Members of Congress? That's a new one to me. I dealt with dozens of CODELs in my embassy days and the only ones I, or the Field and Flag grade officers around me, ever saluted were Senators McCain and Inouye. McCain because he was a retired military officer and POW, and Inouye because he was a MoH recipient. Granted, technically you are only supposed to salute MoH recipients when they are wearing the Medal, but most military folks ignore that rule/guideline.

So are you saying the rule is to salute members of Congress or that's the way it should be?

If you think they should be then why not SCOTUS Justices?

I was told that Congress critters do, but never looked it up. The advice I got as a private was, "when in doubt, whip it out". I met exactly zero civilians that rated salutes in 13 years...lol

Casper · Jan 24, 2017

AlbqOwl said:
I don't know who started the tradition of the President saluting, but I know it goes back as far at least as Truman. The President is Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. So it seems to me, he is entitled to salute whatever he wants to salute.

Agreed.

Skeptic Bob · Jan 24, 2017

apdst said:
I was told that Congress critters do, but never looked it up. The advice I got as a private was, "when in doubt, whip it out". I met exactly zero civilians that rated salutes in 13 years...lol

Yeah, before I got into the embassy program it never came up for me either. But after that I fell back on the good ol' "When in doubt, whip it out" rule of thumb quite often. Not so much with civilians, but with foreign military officers. And it didn't help that most of them didn't know what a Warrant Officer is.

I just remembered one other civilian I saluted. When I was stationed in Mexico City I was at the airfield coordinating aircraft services for the arrival of SECSTATE Colin Powell. After he was greeted by the Ambassador he headed toward the awaiting motorcade. I saluted him when he approached because he will always be General Powell to me. He returned my salute and came straight to me and began talking to me. I was just an E-5 at the time. Pissed the State Department GS-13s and 14s off that were there who then had to wait on lil' ol' me.

Skeptic Bob · Jan 24, 2017

RetiredUSN said:
Civilians get a pass with me as far as honors go. Many just don't understand the etiquette and protocols.

Obama's supposed goof of not saluting the young Marine was actually a "act of class" when he realized what he did, and immediately came back off the Helo and saluted him.

Agreed. I chastised some of my FB friends who were giving Melanie Trump a hard time for not placing her hand over her heart when the Colors passed at the military review. But look at her? (0:43 mark)

She obviously just didn't know what to do. Not only is she a civilian but she is a civilian who didn't grow up here. She is standing solemnly at attention doing the best she knows how to do. I'm sure if she saw the VP and Second Lady placing their hands over their hearts she would have done the same. Out of the corner of her eye she would have just seen her husband saluting and she probably thought to herself, "Well, I know I'm not supposed to do that." She is going to have a steeper learning curve than probably any First Lady before her. I'm willing to cut her some slack.

apdst · Jan 24, 2017

BrewerBob said:
Yeah, before I got into the embassy program it never came up for me either. But after that I fell back on the good ol' "When in doubt, whip it out" rule of thumb quite often. Not so much with civilians, but with foreign military officers. And it didn't help that most of them didn't know what a Warrant Officer is.

I just remembered one other civilian I saluted. When I was stationed in Mexico City I was at the airfield coordinating aircraft services for the arrival of SECSTATE Colin Powell. After he was greeted by the Ambassador he headed toward the awaiting motorcade. I saluted him when he approached because he will always be General Powell to me. He returned my salute and came straight to me and began talking to me. I was just an E-5 at the time. Pissed the State Department GS-13s and 14s off that were there who then had to wait on lil' ol' me.

I went to school at Aberdeen Proving Grounds. There were tons of foreign military training personel there. There was this one NCO from who-the-hell-knows-where there that had so much **** on his epaulettes that everyone assumed he was an officer. He got saluted so much, that saluting him became a running joke.

JohnPaul · Jan 24, 2017

Kal'Stang said:
Depending on whats going on I'll either salute the flag or cover my heart with my hand/hat. I've never served. To me it is a sign of respect. On clear nights I'll even sometimes snap a salute towards the moon knowing that there's a flag up there and also knowing that not many people would consider doing so. I figure that it deserves a little respect from time to time also.

Very good. I'll remember that.

Presidents/civilians and saluting

Skeptic Bob

AlbqOwl

justabubba

long standing member

Skeptic Bob

vesper

Lutherf

AlbqOwl

vesper

Skeptic Bob

Kal'Stang

vesper

VanceMack

Less like the tiger...more like the lion.

Skeptic Bob

Chomsky

Social Democrat

Redress

Liberal Fascist For Life!

Lutherf

RetiredUSN

apdst

Skeptic Bob

apdst

Casper

Skeptic Bob

Skeptic Bob

apdst

JohnPaul

Active member