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The United States should withdraw from NATO

Kelfuma

Kelfuma

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Alright, let's get the USA out of NATO ASAP. Seriously, what do we owe those damn secularists who started TWO world wars?! That WE had to clean up?!

Donald Trump may be an idiot, but at least he's an honest idiot (pretty much bad at lying too). He's right about a few things and one thing is that NATO is a complete waste of US military resources. Russia could invade half of Europe for all I care. Hell, a war might even help our economy (see what happened to the Great Depression once WWII began and then the postwar period; we had a goddamn baby boom).
 
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Kelfuma said:
Alright, let's get the USA out of NATO ASAP. Seriously, what do we owe those damn secularists who started TWO world wars?! That WE had to clean up?!

Donald Trump may be an idiot, but at least he's an honest idiot (pretty much bad at lying too). He's right about a few things and one thing is that NATO is a complete waste of US military resources. Russia could invade half of Europe for all I care. Hell, a war might even help our economy (see WWII and postwar period).
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Being bad at lying makes one 'honest?'
 
Kelfuma said:
Alright, let's get the USA out of NATO ASAP. Seriously, what do we owe those damn secularists who started TWO world wars?! That WE had to clean up?!

Donald Trump may be an idiot, but at least he's an honest idiot (pretty much bad at lying too). He's right about a few things and one thing is that NATO is a complete waste of US military resources. Russia could invade half of Europe for all I care. Hell, a war might even help our economy (see WWII and postwar period).
Click to expand...

I hate NATO because they look for the US to fix EVERYTHING. Russia's being mean? Send the majority of US troops. Europe wants to know how to handle extremism? We have three battle units training them for decades. Who foots the biggest bills? The US.

NATO was a great idea originally and has turned into Europe being the whiney younger brother who wants the big tough older brother (US) to fight all his stupid battles.
 
Kelfuma said:
Alright, let's get the USA out of NATO ASAP. Seriously, what do we owe those damn secularists who started TWO world wars?! That WE had to clean up?!

Donald Trump may be an idiot, but at least he's an honest idiot (pretty much bad at lying too). He's right about a few things and one thing is that NATO is a complete waste of US military resources. Russia could invade half of Europe for all I care. Hell, a war might even help our economy (see what happened to the Great Depression once WWII began and then the postwar period; we had a goddamn baby boom).
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No he isn't. He's a lying idiot.

Trump's lied I don't know how many times now. Just look at this giant list of false statements from Trump:

All False statements involving Donald Trump | PolitiFact
 
Kelfuma said:
That's just a good example of how honest of a bad liar he is. So obvious, that everyone ought to expect him to lie.
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Honesty means telling the truth. It is the opposite of lying.
 
Kelfuma said:
Alright, let's get the USA out of NATO ASAP. Seriously, what do we owe those damn secularists who started TWO world wars?! That WE had to clean up?!

Donald Trump may be an idiot, but at least he's an honest idiot (pretty much bad at lying too). He's right about a few things and one thing is that NATO is a complete waste of US military resources. Russia could invade half of Europe for all I care. Hell, a war might even help our economy (see what happened to the Great Depression once WWII began and then the postwar period; we had a goddamn baby boom).
Click to expand...

Just to play a pro-NATO devil's advocate here, even if we stay in and continue to support NATO, we need to kick Turkey the hell out of it. We have no business being in such an alliance with them.
 
Fishking said:
Just to play a pro-NATO devil's advocate here, even if we stay in and continue to support NATO, we need to kick Turkey the hell out of it. We have no business being in such an alliance with them.
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WHOSE IDEA WAS IT TO INVITE ISLAMISTS??!!! God damn genius I say!! A master move for the ages.
 
Kelfuma said:
WHOSE IDEA WAS IT TO INVITE ISLAMISTS??!!! God damn genius I say!! A master move for the ages.
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Well, Turkey did have somewhat of a recent history of being somewhat secular, which was a role played by the military. The military would step in and correct the ship, when it started leaning too theocratic. Well, the military coup failed this time and that was basically the last gasp chance of Turkey being anything close to having a respectable government. This has been somewhat of a recent development and, as it stand now, they need to be removed.
 
Well this is going well............:coffeepap
 
Kelfuma said:
Alright, let's get the USA out of NATO ASAP. Seriously, what do we owe those damn secularists who started TWO world wars?! That WE had to clean up?!

Donald Trump may be an idiot, but at least he's an honest idiot (pretty much bad at lying too). He's right about a few things and one thing is that NATO is a complete waste of US military resources. Russia could invade half of Europe for all I care. Hell, a war might even help our economy (see what happened to the Great Depression once WWII began and then the postwar period; we had a goddamn baby boom).
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I agree, but it will be a very cold day in hell before TPTB let that happen.
 
Fishking said:
Just to play a pro-NATO devil's advocate here, even if we stay in and continue to support NATO, we need to kick Turkey the hell out of it. We have no business being in such an alliance with them.
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I was just about to post the same thing while reading through the thread. Turkey should never have been allowed into NATO. They're a tinderbox and I don't want us in a treaty to go to war with Russia because of Turkey.

And I don't mind us being in NATO. It's good to have friends. But I don't like us having to pay for everyone else's defense while they spend their own tax money on social programs because we're footing the bill to defend everyone. A good way to remedy this would be to pull our troops out of Europe and say, "We'll still be on your side if something happens, but if you don't want the Ruskies steamrolling through Europe, perhaps you could build up your own forces a bit."
 
Kelfuma said:
Alright, let's get the USA out of NATO ASAP. Seriously, what do we owe those damn secularists who started TWO world wars?! That WE had to clean up?!

Donald Trump may be an idiot, but at least he's an honest idiot (pretty much bad at lying too). He's right about a few things and one thing is that NATO is a complete waste of US military resources. Russia could invade half of Europe for all I care. Hell, a war might even help our economy (see what happened to the Great Depression once WWII began and then the postwar period; we had a goddamn baby boom).
Click to expand...

that is why no one takes the right seriously about economics or the law.
 
Kelfuma said:
Alright, let's get the USA out of NATO ASAP. Seriously, what do we owe those damn secularists who started TWO world wars?! That WE had to clean up?!

Donald Trump may be an idiot, but at least he's an honest idiot (pretty much bad at lying too). He's right about a few things and one thing is that NATO is a complete waste of US military resources. Russia could invade half of Europe for all I care. Hell, a war might even help our economy (see what happened to the Great Depression once WWII began and then the postwar period; we had a goddamn baby boom).
Click to expand...

This is one-sided. The U.S. has invested heavily in Europe, before WWII but especially in the aftermath with the Marshall Plan. Europe's economic reconstruction under our purview greatly aided our economic power in the world, and gave us military access to defend against Russia. If the U.S. hadn't aided the reconstruction of Europe, the Soviets probably would've taken over the whole continent.

It's true that Europe continues to enjoy high culture because of defense treaties with us. They have a cultural superiority that exists at our behest in a way, and they have a penchant for starting conflicts that we end up finishing. But you're acting like it's a one-way relationship. The relationship is symbiotic. We have a vested interest in the neo-liberal unification of Europe, economically speaking. (I'm not saying I support that, but I'm talking realpolitik here.)

If Europe were to be lost tomorrow or absorbed into a non-democratic power, it would represent a huge shift in the balance of power and would put a lot of our assets, economic and geopolitical, in grave risk. Europe is a major launching point into many other domains such that its security is our security.
 
Brewdog said:
I was just about to post the same thing while reading through the thread. Turkey should never have been allowed into NATO. They're a tinderbox and I don't want us in a treaty to go to war with Russia because of Turkey.

And I don't mind us being in NATO. It's good to have friends. But I don't like us having to pay for everyone else's defense while they spend their own tax money on social programs because we're footing the bill to defend everyone. A good way to remedy this would be to pull our troops out of Europe and say, "We'll still be on your side if something happens, but if you don't want the Ruskies steamrolling through Europe, perhaps you could build up your own forces a bit."
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Yup...everyone gets to spend so much money on social programs because they aren't really responsible for their defense, we are. As far as Turkey, they had a decent recent history of running things fairly well, with the military playing a secular check on the government but their last gasp in this failed coup was the end of that. They are now a failed state, as far as defining a successful one as being somewhat moderate and have a basic level of rights.
 
Kelfuma said:
Alright, let's get the USA out of NATO ASAP. Seriously, what do we owe those damn secularists who started TWO world wars?! That WE had to clean up?!

Donald Trump may be an idiot, but at least he's an honest idiot (pretty much bad at lying too). He's right about a few things and one thing is that NATO is a complete waste of US military resources. Russia could invade half of Europe for all I care. Hell, a war might even help our economy (see what happened to the Great Depression once WWII began and then the postwar period; we had a goddamn baby boom).
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Patton said there are 2 basic truisms in war. you make the other guy die for his country and you fight on the other guys dirt. that is why we need to be in NATO. yes europeans have a love of war but our national defense relys on being in europe.
 
katzgar said:
Patton said there are 2 basic truisms in war. you make the other guy die for his country and you fight on the other guys dirt. that is why we need to be in NATO. yes europeans have a love of war but our national defense relys on being in europe.
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I'm not really against our membership in NATO, but my objection is that the organization has certainly grown too big for its britches. And it has become dishonest and provocative with Russia.

Its activities have become not much more than illegitimate regime change and military aggression.
 
Thoreau72 said:
I'm not really against our membership in NATO, but my objection is that the organization has certainly grown too big for its britches. And it has become dishonest and provocative with Russia.

Its activities have become not much more than illegitimate regime change and military aggression.
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Says the guy who thinks was non radioactive non exploding mini-nukes that exploded and emitted radiation that brofght down the twin towers along with tons of nanothermite and laser cannon balls
 
TheGoverness said:
And that's why your voting/supporting Trump? Because he's just really ****ing stupid?
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TBH it would not surprise me if some people voted for Trump for that very reason. And they're gonna get what they asked for; Trump may become the biggest troll president ever.
 
What possible good does being part of NATO do for America? Russia is no longer a conventional threat to America or Europe as a whole. The Warsaw Pact is LONG gone. NATO is now just an EU Defense Organization. And America should stay away from that quagmire.

Besides, if NATO ever really needed America, does anyone seriously think they will not welcome them back, arms wide open?

America being part of NATO is silly with the Soviet Union no more.
 
Even if we stay in NATO, we need someone that will stand up and say America is no longer big brother to the rest of the world. We have too many problems at home to deal with to be picking up the rest of the world's issues. I still find it ridiculous we are throwing away billions of dollars to help all of these other countries when we can't even take care of our own veterans here. I am disgusted with American foreign policy and have been for years.
 
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