Yemen Has Become the Graveyard of the Obama Doctrine

Rogue Valley · Sep 24, 2016

Yemen Has Become the Graveyard of the Obama Doctrine

The human costs of facilitating Saudi Arabia’s proxy war have been enormous, and there’s no end in sight....

Abbazorkzog · Sep 24, 2016

Simpleχity;1066348938 said:
Yemen Has Become the Graveyard of the Obama Doctrine

The human costs of facilitating Saudi Arabia’s proxy war have been enormous, and there’s no end in sight....

I wish there was a dislike button. We shouldn't be in Yemen fighting Saudi Arabia's war for them in the first place, we're not mercenaries fighting for snake oil salesmen - and I wish our government would quit treating our men and women in uniform like that. Some of them are good friends of mine.

quote-military-men-are-just-dumb-stupid-animals-to-be-used-as-pawns-in-foreign-policy-henry-a-kissinger-39-91-50.jpg

Utterly inexcusable.
(By the way, can I put a link to this thread in my signature so others can see it?)

joG · Sep 24, 2016

Simpleχity;1066348938 said:
Yemen Has Become the Graveyard of the Obama Doctrine

The human costs of facilitating Saudi Arabia’s proxy war have been enormous, and there’s no end in sight....

Let's worry about Syria first and not let other issues obfuscate the priorities.

Tanngrisnir · Sep 24, 2016

Actually, from how it was described, albeit incredibly briefly, The Obama Docrtine sounded spot-on. I can't disagree with its assumptions/premises.

The failure, and utter failure, was in failing to follow it and walk it like he talked it.

Unfortunately, that describes every POTUS of the Modern Era.

Abbazorkzog · Sep 24, 2016

joG said:
Let's worry about Syria first and not let other issues obfuscate the priorities.

Syria is just a massive ****show. I can't see it ending well. I doubt Syria will even exist after all is said and done.

joG · Sep 24, 2016

Abbazorkzog said:
Syria is just a massive ****show. I can't see it ending well. I doubt Syria will even exist after all is said and done.

The situation does have the feel about it that this nation's boarders drawn by the global powers of the 19th century might be redrawn, probably along ancient tribal ones.

braindrain · Sep 24, 2016

Abbazorkzog said:
I wish there was a dislike button. We shouldn't be in Yemen fighting Saudi Arabia's war for them in the first place, we're not mercenaries fighting for snake oil salesmen - and I wish our government would quit treating our men and women in uniform like that. Some of them are good friends of mine.

Utterly inexcusable.
(By the way, can I put a link to this thread in my signature so others can see it?)

You do realize that quote was almost assuredly never said by Kissinger don't you?

PoS · Sep 24, 2016

braindrain said:
You do realize that quote was almost assuredly never said by Kissinger don't you?

Actually he did. It's been documented by Bob Woodward and never denied by Kissinger.

FieldTheorist · Sep 24, 2016

Abbazorkzog said:
I wish there was a dislike button. We shouldn't be in Yemen fighting Saudi Arabia's war for them in the first place, we're not mercenaries fighting for snake oil salesmen - and I wish our government would quit treating our men and women in uniform like that. Some of them are good friends of mine.

Utterly inexcusable.
(By the way, can I put a link to this thread in my signature so others can see it?)

That quote has a questionable provenance, so I'll give a different quote:

Once you’ve been to Cambodia, you’ll never stop wanting to beat Henry Kissinger to death with your bare hands. You will never again be able to open a newspaper and read about that treacherous, prevaricating, murderous scumbag sitting down for a nice chat with Charlie Rose or attending some black-tie affair for a new glossy magazine without choking. Witness what Henry did in Cambodia – the fruits of his genius for statesmanship – and you will never understand why he’s not sitting in the dock at The Hague next to Milošević. While Henry continues to nibble nori rolls & remaki at A-list parties, Cambodia, the neutral nation he secretly and illegally bombed, invaded, undermined, and then threw to the dogs, is still trying to raise itself up on its one remaining leg.

--Anthony Bourdain, A Cook's Tour: In Search of the Perfect Meal (2001), p. 162

Only I would add that one shouldn't limit their outrage to Cambodia.

FieldTheorist · Sep 24, 2016

PoS said:
Actually he did. It's been documented by Bob Woodward and never denied by Kissinger.

According to Wikipedia, he has denied saying it (although they don't give a source, so take it for what that's worth).

But let's be honest: Whether he said it or not, he ****ing believes what this quote says, and his actions show it.

EDIT: On the other hand, I've seen a lot of website who say that he never denied saying it, so who knows.

braindrain · Sep 24, 2016

PoS said:
Actually he did. It's been documented by Bob Woodward and never denied by Kissinger.

It seems there is quite a bit of doubt that he did or not. It was relayed to Woodward third hand by someone who disliked Kissinger. So not exactly what I would call documented.

Gaugingcatenate · Sep 24, 2016

FieldTheorist said:
That quote has a questionable provenance, so I'll give a different quote:

Once you’ve been to Cambodia, you’ll never stop wanting to beat Henry Kissinger to death with your bare hands. You will never again be able to open a newspaper and read about that treacherous, prevaricating, murderous scumbag sitting down for a nice chat with Charlie Rose or attending some black-tie affair for a new glossy magazine without choking. Witness what Henry did in Cambodia – the fruits of his genius for statesmanship – and you will never understand why he’s not sitting in the dock at The Hague next to Milošević. While Henry continues to nibble nori rolls & remaki at A-list parties, Cambodia, the neutral nation he secretly and illegally bombed, invaded, undermined, and then threw to the dogs, is still trying to raise itself up on its one remaining leg.

--Anthony Bourdain, A Cook's Tour: In Search of the Perfect Meal (2001), p. 162

Only I would add that one shouldn't limit their outrage to Cambodia.

If Bourdain is near as far off about Kissinger as he was Milosevic, then it becomes tragically comical.

It was, still is, a messy world with evil predators out there that our leaders were more informed regarding. Some messy choices need be made. Not going to re-litigate the Cambodian decisions, but its not as cut and dried as all that. Overstepping, when our boys are in the field of battle and in our boy's favor, is always something contemplative, not always completely broad brushed contemptible.

Tigerace117 · Sep 24, 2016

FieldTheorist said:
That quote has a questionable provenance, so I'll give a different quote:

Once you’ve been to Cambodia, you’ll never stop wanting to beat Henry Kissinger to death with your bare hands. You will never again be able to open a newspaper and read about that treacherous, prevaricating, murderous scumbag sitting down for a nice chat with Charlie Rose or attending some black-tie affair for a new glossy magazine without choking. Witness what Henry did in Cambodia – the fruits of his genius for statesmanship – and you will never understand why he’s not sitting in the dock at The Hague next to Milošević. While Henry continues to nibble nori rolls & remaki at A-list parties, Cambodia, the neutral nation he secretly and illegally bombed, invaded, undermined, and then threw to the dogs, is still trying to raise itself up on its one remaining leg.

--Anthony Bourdain, A Cook's Tour: In Search of the Perfect Meal (2001), p. 162

Only I would add that one shouldn't limit their outrage to Cambodia.

Calling the Khmer Rouge a "neutral state" is a funny ****ing joke.

FieldTheorist · Sep 24, 2016

Tigerace117 said:
Calling the Khmer Rouge a "neutral state" is a funny ****ing joke.

You are aware that Operation Menu, which was Nixon and Kissinger's brutal carpet bombing of Cambodia, was what devastated the region and in no small sense is what helped the Khmer Rouge gain power because of the total state of chaos that Cambodia was in after the bombings...? This is why neoconservative foreign policy is pure idiocy. It just creates power vacuums that are filled up by worse and worse despots. (Just take our involvement with Iraq and Libya, and the creation of ISIS).

As for Cambodia being a "neutral state," the part that the Khmer Rouge controlled was obviously not neutral, but it's worth noting that the US-recognized nation of Cambodia would not fall to the Khmer Rouge until 1975, five years after Kissinger's heinous carpet bombings. So yes, the US-recognized nation of Cambodia was very much neutral.

Tigerace117 · Sep 25, 2016

FieldTheorist said:
You are aware that Operation Menu, which was Nixon and Kissinger's brutal carpet bombing of Cambodia, was what devastated the region and in no small sense is what helped the Khmer Rouge gain power because of the total state of chaos that Cambodia was in after the bombings...? This is why neoconservative foreign policy is pure idiocy. It just creates power vacuums that are filled up by worse and worse despots. (Just take our involvement with Iraq and Libya, and the creation of ISIS).

As for Cambodia being a "neutral state," the part that the Khmer Rouge controlled was obviously not neutral, but it's worth noting that the US-recognized nation of Cambodia would not fall to the Khmer Rouge until 1975, five years after Kissinger's heinous carpet bombings. So yes, the US-recognized nation of Cambodia was very much neutral.

Your own article points out the effects of Operation Menu are still highly disputed, and that the North Vietnamese had to disperse their Cambodian sanctuaries--- without which there would have been no bombing of Cambodia. So if your going to be assigning blame for it, you might as well blame the North Vietnamese, who routinely violated the sovereignty and territory of both Laos and Cambodia in an attempt to outflank South Vietnam.

ISIS is a bunch of brutal thugs, but they also are a highly overrated fighting force.

Ironically enough;

"For those in Washington who were cognizant of the Menu raids, the silence of one party came as a surprise. The Hanoi government made no protest concerning the bombings. It neither denounced the raids for propaganda purposes, nor, according to Kissinger, did its negotiators "raise the matter during formal or secret negotiations."[29] North Vietnam had no wish to advertise the presence of their forces in Cambodia, allowed by Sihanouk in return for the Vietnamese agreeing not to foment rebellion in Cambodia."

FieldTheorist · Sep 25, 2016

Tigerace117 said:
Your own article points out the effects of Operation Menu are still highly disputed, and that the North Vietnamese had to disperse their Cambodian sanctuaries--- without which there would have been no bombing of Cambodia. So if your going to be assigning blame for it, you might as well blame the North Vietnamese, who routinely violated the sovereignty and territory of both Laos and Cambodia in an attempt to outflank South Vietnam.

This is why I have a second link, which gives the testimony of an academic historian and researcher on the subject, who sheds quite a different perspective on the issue (And it's not just Operation Menu, it's "Operation Freedom Deal" that also played a role). In any case, two wrongs don't make a right --even if factions of the Cambodian government were bastards, it doesn't justify carpet bombing civilians and leading to 2 million people being dislocated and/or refugees, killing around 100,000 civilians, and obliterating the country's infrastructure, livelihoods, and jobs. We can pretend like that this didn't help the Khmer Rouge obtain power, but even if we reject that notion, it was still vicious, barbaric, and openly a war crime. You are not allowed to indiscriminately bomb civilian areas without even an attempt to hit military targets. It's worth mentioning that we bombed Cambodia (250,000 tons of high yield explosives) more intensely than we did Japan during World War II (180,000 tons of high yield explosives). Let those numbers sink in a minute.

Ironically enough;

"For those in Washington who were cognizant of the Menu raids, the silence of one party came as a surprise. The Hanoi government made no protest concerning the bombings. It neither denounced the raids for propaganda purposes, nor, according to Kissinger, did its negotiators "raise the matter during formal or secret negotiations."[29] North Vietnam had no wish to advertise the presence of their forces in Cambodia, allowed by Sihanouk in return for the Vietnamese agreeing not to foment rebellion in Cambodia."

The only thing that you're pointing out is that powerful groups suppressed the existence of the bombings for their own political expediency; that says nothing about the nature or legality of the bombings or the fact that the official state was at least on paper neutral.

Tigerace117 · Sep 25, 2016

FieldTheorist said:
This is why I have a second link, which gives the testimony of an academic historian and researcher on the subject, who sheds quite a different perspective on the issue (And it's not just Operation Menu, it's "Operation Freedom Deal" that also played a role). In any case, two wrongs don't make a right --even if factions of the Cambodian government were bastards, it doesn't justify carpet bombing civilians and leading to 2 million people being dislocated and/or refugees, killing around 100,000 civilians, and obliterating the country's infrastructure, livelihoods, and jobs. We can pretend like that this didn't help the Khmer Rouge obtain power, but even if we reject that notion, it was still vicious, barbaric, and openly a war crime. You are not allowed to indiscriminately bomb civilian areas without even an attempt to hit military targets. It's worth mentioning that we bombed Cambodia (250,000 tons of high yield explosives) more intensely than we did Japan during World War II (180,000 tons of high yield explosives). Let those numbers sink in a minute.

The only thing that you're pointing out is that powerful groups suppressed the existence of the bombings for their own political expediency; that says nothing about the nature or legality of the bombings or the fact that the official state was at least on paper neutral.

It points out that even the North Vietnamese--- the ones that you'd think would be screaming to high heaven at the slightest sign of US legality--- kept quiet. They wouldn't have done that for nothing.

As far as I can tell, there was definitely an attempt to hit military targets--- however, the nature of the US bomber fleet meant that by its very nature everything around a target was going to get plastered as well.

jdog · Oct 2, 2016

Simpleχity;1066348938 said:
Yemen Has Become the Graveyard of the Obama Doctrine

The human costs of facilitating Saudi Arabia’s proxy war have been enormous, and there’s no end in sight....

Obama does not have a military doctrine. He simply does what the military industrial complex tell him to do. The fact is that the American government and therefore the American people have lost any control over the military altogether....

Masterhawk · Oct 2, 2016

Honestly, we should cut off relations with Saudi Arabia until they quit indiscriminately bombing hospitals.

cabse5 · Oct 2, 2016

Tanngrisnir said:
Actually, from how it was described, albeit incredibly briefly, The Obama Docrtine sounded spot-on. I can't disagree with its assumptions/premises.

The failure, and utter failure, was in failing to follow it and walk it like he talked it.

Unfortunately, that describes every POTUS of the Modern Era.

What has been the Obama doctrine in the Middle East? Approval of the overthrow of Morsi in Egypt for the Muslim Brotherhood? Assist the UN in the removal of Gadaffi in Libya? Not have the US help rebels trying to overthrow Al-Assad in Syria but putting out that line in the sand about the use of chemical weapons? Facilitating the nuclear pact with Iran?

BO has particularly done two things with his actions in the Middle East:
(1) Both Sunni and Shia Muslims are further angered with the US (after Iraq).
(2) the transformation of Al-Qaeda, a Sunni Muslim hate group in the Middle East primarily the result of the Iraq War to the super venomous Sunni Muslim hate group ISIL.

I thought you guys voted for BO so he would get the US out of the Middle East. Seems like he's further entrenched the US in the Middle East with American foreign policy. Gasp, or is that the sole work of his Secretary of State Hillary Clinton?

JANFU · Oct 2, 2016

Abbazorkzog said:
Syria is just a massive ****show. I can't see it ending well. I doubt Syria will even exist after all is said and done.

1/2 million dead, the blood feuds and revenge attacks, Syria will split, with Assad holding the coast, Damascus and Aleppo. The war is at a stalemate and Aleppo will be a bloodbath and we will do nothing.

JANFU · Oct 2, 2016

cabse5 said:
What has been the Obama doctrine in the Middle East? Approval of the overthrow of Morsi in Egypt for the Muslim Brotherhood? Assist the UN in the removal of Gadaffi in Libya? Not have the US help rebels trying to overthrow Al-Assad in Syria but putting out that line in the sand about the use of chemical weapons? Facilitating the nuclear pact with Iran?

BO has particularly done two things with his actions in the Middle East:
(1) Both Sunni and Shia Muslims are further angered with the US (after Iraq).
(2) the transformation of Al-Qaeda, a Sunni Muslim hate group in the Middle East primarily the result of the Iraq War to the super venomous Sunni Muslim hate group ISIL.

I thought you guys voted for BO so he would get the US out of the Middle East. Seems like he's further entrenched the US in the Middle East with American foreign policy. Gasp, or is that the sole work of his Secretary of State Hillary Clinton?

Keeping the US for the most part out of another war in the ME.

cabse5 · Oct 2, 2016

JANFU said:
Keeping the US for the most part out of another war in the ME.

Don't worry. ISIL will come to us.

Yemen Has Become the Graveyard of the Obama Doctrine

Rogue Valley

Lead or get out of the way

Abbazorkzog

Zapatista Libertarian

joG

Tanngrisnir

Abbazorkzog

Zapatista Libertarian

joG

braindrain

PoS

Minister of Love

FieldTheorist

FieldTheorist

braindrain

Gaugingcatenate

Tigerace117

FieldTheorist

Tigerace117

FieldTheorist

Tigerace117

jdog

Masterhawk

cabse5

JANFU

Land by the Gulf Stream

JANFU

Land by the Gulf Stream

cabse5