Navy weapons

kanabco · Sep 9, 2016

I am starting this topic because of a lot of opinions that have been issued in the LCS post about it's defense.
Let's begin with anti-missile defense.
I have heard many who think the Gatling gun is the gnats ass but it is not. The Phalnax CWIS is old tech.
You cannot shoot a modern missile out of the sky with one. It is too slow.
An incoming missile is traveling so fast that even if you hit it with a round or two you just bust it apart 100 yards away and like an asteroid heading for earth, if you break it up it just becomes a couple hundred smaller pieces traveling at the same speed. Kinetic energy will do great damage to the ship with the CWI.
Also don't forget the incoming missile is programed to zig-zag the last mile or two making it next to impossible to hit with a bullet.

So the best defense is another missle. One that does not issue a signature that the incoming can see.... like infrared guidance.

That would be the RIM-116. It can blow an in-coming into a thousand pieces miles away. This why the navy is eliminating the CWI and replacing it with RIMs.

The LCS ships and all other modern ships have a lot of these.

Mark F · Sep 9, 2016

Mk 15 was intended as a interim system pending the development of RIM-116 RAM, which was more than a decade late, so Mk 15 ended up being far more widely deployed than originally intended. Mk 15 does at least have the advantage of being able to be bolted down almost anyplace there is available deck space and unlike the original RIM-116 can operate fully independently from a ships own CDS,... ideal for ships that do not have a CDS like auxiliaries and amphibs. But now SeaRAM can fulfill that role. If the topic of discussion is the weaponry of LCS though I'm not sure why we are even discussing Mk 15 as the LCS carry RAM and SeaRAM respectively for missile defense and 57 mm and 30 mm guns for engaging surface targets, which makes Mk 15 rather redundant. Mk 15 is being re-roled with a primary task of engaging surface targets on those ships which retain it.

Lutherf · Sep 9, 2016

kanabco said:
I am starting this topic because of a lot of opinions that have been issued in the LCS post about it's defense.
Let's begin with anti-missile defense.
I have heard many who think the Gatling gun is the gnats ass but it is not. The Phalnax CWIS is old tech.
You cannot shoot a modern missile out of the sky with one. It is too slow.
An incoming missile is traveling so fast that even if you hit it with a round or two you just bust it apart 100 yards away and like an asteroid heading for earth, if you break it up it just becomes a couple hundred smaller pieces traveling at the same speed. Kinetic energy will do great damage to the ship with the CWI.
Also don't forget the incoming missile is programed to zig-zag the last mile or two making it next to impossible to hit with a bullet.

So the best defense is another missle. One that does not issue a signature that the incoming can see.... like infrared guidance.

That would be the RIM-116. It can blow an in-coming into a thousand pieces miles away. This why the navy is eliminating the CWI and replacing it with RIMs.

The LCS ships and all other modern ships have a lot of these.

When I visited the Missouri all they had were M2's on the gunwale. This should be a nice improvement though, likely, less fun.

Gaius46 · Sep 9, 2016

kanabco said:
I am starting this topic because of a lot of opinions that have been issued in the LCS post about it's defense.
Let's begin with anti-missile defense.
I have heard many who think the Gatling gun is the gnats ass but it is not. The Phalnax CWIS is old tech.
You cannot shoot a modern missile out of the sky with one. It is too slow.
An incoming missile is traveling so fast that even if you hit it with a round or two you just bust it apart 100 yards away and like an asteroid heading for earth, if you break it up it just becomes a couple hundred smaller pieces traveling at the same speed. Kinetic energy will do great damage to the ship with the CWI.
Also don't forget the incoming missile is programed to zig-zag the last mile or two making it next to impossible to hit with a bullet.

So the best defense is another missle. One that does not issue a signature that the incoming can see.... like infrared guidance.

That would be the RIM-116. It can blow an in-coming into a thousand pieces miles away. This why the navy is eliminating the CWI and replacing it with RIMs.

The LCS ships and all other modern ships have a lot of these.

Isn't the intent of Gatling gun styled CWIS systems to act as a last ditch defense?

Glen Contrarian · Sep 9, 2016

kanabco said:
I am starting this topic because of a lot of opinions that have been issued in the LCS post about it's defense.
Let's begin with anti-missile defense.
I have heard many who think the Gatling gun is the gnats ass but it is not. The Phalnax CWIS is old tech.
You cannot shoot a modern missile out of the sky with one. It is too slow.
An incoming missile is traveling so fast that even if you hit it with a round or two you just bust it apart 100 yards away and like an asteroid heading for earth, if you break it up it just becomes a couple hundred smaller pieces traveling at the same speed. Kinetic energy will do great damage to the ship with the CWI.
Also don't forget the incoming missile is programed to zig-zag the last mile or two making it next to impossible to hit with a bullet.

So the best defense is another missle. One that does not issue a signature that the incoming can see.... like infrared guidance.

That would be the RIM-116. It can blow an in-coming into a thousand pieces miles away. This why the navy is eliminating the CWI and replacing it with RIMs.

The LCS ships and all other modern ships have a lot of these.

The most modern missiles may indeed be too fast for CIWS...but MOST missiles out there are not the "most modern" missiles. It would be a great mistake to get rid of CIWS for the RIM-116 - it would be far wiser to keep both. Why? Because if the RIM-116 misses (and it's quite literally like trying to hit a bullet with another bullet), the CIWS (and electronic countermeasures) might be all that's left to defend the ship.

kanabco · Sep 10, 2016

Mark F said:
Mk 15 was intended as a interim system pending the development of RIM-116 RAM, which was more than a decade late, so Mk 15 ended up being far more widely deployed than originally intended. Mk 15 does at least have the advantage of being able to be bolted down almost anyplace there is available deck space and unlike the original RIM-116 can operate fully independently from a ships own CDS,... ideal for ships that do not have a CDS like auxiliaries and amphibs. But now SeaRAM can fulfill that role. If the topic of discussion is the weaponry of LCS though I'm not sure why we are even discussing Mk 15 as the LCS carry RAM and SeaRAM respectively for missile defense and 57 mm and 30 mm guns for engaging surface targets, which makes Mk 15 rather redundant. Mk 15 is being re-roled with a primary task of engaging surface targets on those ships which retain it.

I can't find it on this site but elsewhere someone was dissing the new LCS because they "didn't even have CWIS at all. Again, the Navy is not using them for missile defense any longer because they are ineffective against new tech.

Mark F · Sep 10, 2016

kanabco said:
I can't find it on this site but elsewhere someone was dissing the new LCS because they "didn't even have CWIS at all. Again, the Navy is not using them for missile defense any longer because they are ineffective against new tech.

That's when you know you are dealing with someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. RIM-116 is a close-in weapon system designed specifically (and almost exclusively) for short-range self-defense against inbound anti-ship missiles. If one follows the history one knows that Mk 15 was just a quick thrown-together interim system to fill the gap between the cancellation of Sea Mauler and the service entry of the real CIWS, RIM-116. Mk 15 just carried on a lot longer than it should and some folks got the mistaken impression that is what a CIWS is supposed to be.

I never understood the affinity some folks have for Mk 15. It can only track and engage one target at a time and 20 mm didn't work against the Kamikaze in 1944-45 so last-ditch or not, it wouldn't be my first choice for defending against high-speed missiles now. Goalkeeper was quite frankly much more capable (more than double the effective range, ability to track IIRC 6 targets and prioritize engagement) but heavy, expensive and required a deck and a half of penetration so a ship carrying it had to be designed to carry it. And let us not forget that CIWS - be it gun or missile - is the last line of defense against hostile anti-ship missiles, not the first, not the primary. Its the everything else - evasive maneuvers, chaff, jamming, area air defense - has failed alternative. Again, it is much like the 20 mm Oerlikon of WW2 - if you hear the CIWS light up, dive for cover.

Anyone have any knowledge of the capabilities of the FCS used for 57 mm control on LCS? I'm guessing it uses either the navigation radar and/or a simple electro-optical sight which would pretty much limit it to engagement of surface targets. One of the very long list of head scratchers in the LCS program.

PirateMk1 · Sep 13, 2016

Mark F said:
That's when you know you are dealing with someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. RIM-116 is a close-in weapon system designed specifically (and almost exclusively) for short-range self-defense against inbound anti-ship missiles. If one follows the history one knows that Mk 15 was just a quick thrown-together interim system to fill the gap between the cancellation of Sea Mauler and the service entry of the real CIWS, RIM-116. Mk 15 just carried on a lot longer than it should and some folks got the mistaken impression that is what a CIWS is supposed to be.

I never understood the affinity some folks have for Mk 15. It can only track and engage one target at a time and 20 mm didn't work against the Kamikaze in 1944-45 so last-ditch or not, it wouldn't be my first choice for defending against high-speed missiles now. Goalkeeper was quite frankly much more capable (more than double the effective range, ability to track IIRC 6 targets and prioritize engagement) but heavy, expensive and required a deck and a half of penetration so a ship carrying it had to be designed to carry it. And let us not forget that CIWS - be it gun or missile - is the last line of defense against hostile anti-ship missiles, not the first, not the primary. Its the everything else - evasive maneuvers, chaff, jamming, area air defense - has failed alternative. Again, it is much like the 20 mm Oerlikon of WW2 - if you hear the CIWS light up, dive for cover.

Anyone have any knowledge of the capabilities of the FCS used for 57 mm control on LCS? I'm guessing it uses either the navigation radar and/or a simple electro-optical sight which would pretty much limit it to engagement of surface targets. One of the very long list of head scratchers in the LCS program.

I believe its the Boffers system and is fully integrated with ship systems and comes with programmable munitions. Very sophisticated guns. We are looking at the 40mm chain gun version for a CAS platform.

Mark F · Sep 13, 2016

PirateMk1 said:
I believe its the Boffers system and is fully integrated with ship systems and comes with programmable munitions. Very sophisticated guns. We are looking at the 40mm chain gun version for a CAS platform.

The only mention I can find anywhere for fire control is to a small optical sight, possibly TV only - not even a full electro-optical director with FLIR and laser rangefinder and certainly not radar. That means pretty much surface fire and helicopters only. A glaring omission IMHO. Other navies would use a more sophisticated EO director like TMX-K or STING EO.