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1911 .45's

It's rather interesting that you claim one thing but virtually ever single knowledgable training program be it military or law enforcement has moved on from the old single or controlled pair engagements to 4 to 6 round strings with the M4. Why if the 556 has this great stopping power that you claim does it require so many rounds.

Who says it "requires so many rounds?" Wise shooting doctrine has always been to shoot until the threat is terminated. Extra rounds fired in a burst are insurance. Nothing wrong with that.

I also like the way you categorize the mysterious "training programs" that you mention. You say, and I quote, "virtually ever single knowledgable training program."

So........if they disagree with you they're not "knowledgable?"

Sort of cements your claim, I guess.

:mrgreen:

The "one thing" that I claimed was that the .223 has a record of excellence in stopping power.

That is correct and substantiated by the links I gave you.
 
Now why am I not surprised almost 300 posts into this debate that many of you are still arguing?

For some reason, the 1911 .45 is a very polarizing weapon.

Has been for a long time.

First of all......this, after all, IS a debate forum.

:)

Second......somehow, the .223 has now entered the debate.

The more the merrier, I guess.

:mrgreen:
 
NO, we are agreed 100%...for me personally. I love my 1911, and can shoot it with 230, 250 or 200 grain loads. Matters not.

I also love my S&W Model 625-8 revolver in .45 ACP. With full moon clips I can reload it faster than my 1911....and with .45 Auto Rim ammo it is a poor man's magnum. You can really stoke up that auto rim case pretty hot.

Gotta love the classic Smiths.......even moreso if chambered in a classic caliber.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
 
My Springfield TRP Operator 1911 with Trijicon RMR and Blackhawk Serpa OWB holster

TRP 1911.jpg
 
That's crap. no standard pistol has above a 65% first shot stopping ratio. Not in the Evan Marshall study, not in the FBI's multiple studies. Where the 45 ACP has an advantage over the 9mm is when one is limited to FMJ and dealing with adversaries who aren't wearing body armor or heavily padded clothing. The best stopping pistol cartridge (no, I am not including stuff found only in heavy hunting revolvers like the 460 or 500) in the Marshall studies was the hot 357 125 grain JHP. but in more current studies with more modern ammo shows almost no difference between 9, 40 and 45. and as someone who shot Distinguished expert on the US Marshals' Service qualification course with several handguns including an M9, A Sig 226, CZ 75, Glock 17 and 22 (then the FBI issue, the 17 was the USMS issue) and a 1911 (as well as a SW 686 revolver), the GLOCK is probably the easiest to shoot accurately by most people since it doesnt have that long heavy first shot trigger pull that the M9 and the SIG have, and it has less recoil than the 1911. The CZ is the best of the lot for accuracy though.

and GLOCKS last a long time . I have two that have over 30,000 rounds through them and no parts have been replaced save the barrel so I can shoot lead hand Loads.

I was reading this thread thinking about different scenarios and the difference between military and LEOs and in this whole discussion you make the first mention of the difference of FMJ and clothing and how it relates. You are also the first one to mention the Evan Marshall studies. How does one study ballistics and not know about the Evan Marshall studies?
 
Am I the only one who prefers a plain old school GI model? I guess I just want one for collection.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Am I the only one who prefers a plain old school GI model? I guess I just want one for collection.

I have a few of the current production Remingtons and they are very "old school" in style and superb in fit, finish and function.
 
My Springfield TRP Operator 1911 with Trijicon RMR and Blackhawk Serpa OWB holster

View attachment 67205699

You forgot to even acknowledge the CRKT pointing thingy next the 1911, those fold up types are for concealment and only carried by someone looking to poke someone, gotta license for that thing?

Just kidding, I have more than a couple of sharp pointing things, including several CRKT's, folders and fixed, my favorites are my Shrill, Saker and best if all my Clever Girl, Wicked Girl is more like it.
 
Originally Posted by TurtleDude

"That's crap. no standard pistol has above a 65% first shot stopping ratio. Not in the Evan Marshall study...."

nonobaddog said:

I was reading this thread thinking about different scenarios and the difference between military and LEOs and in this whole discussion you make the first mention of the difference of FMJ and clothing and how it relates. You are also the first one to mention the Evan Marshall studies. How does one study ballistics and not know about the Evan Marshall studies?

No, no.......I've mentioned the Evan study.

Strangely enough, TurtleDude appears to be confused about what it found.

The Marshall book gave the .45 ACP a 96% ratio......tied with the 125 grain .357 Magnum......exceeded only by the .223 Remington and .308 Winchester.

Federal 308 168 gr Match 112 110 98% 0" 24.9"
Remington 223 69 gr JHP 40 39 98% 0.32" 16.9"
Federal 357 Magnum 125 gr JHP 641 615 96% 0.74" 11.1"
Federal 45 ACP 230 gr HS 173 166 96% 0.76" 13.9"
PMC 30-30 150 gr SF 44 42 95% 0.53" 19.6"
Remington 40 S&W 165 gr GS 146 137 94% 0.7" 13.9"
Remington 45 ACP +P 185 gr JHP 77 71 92% 0.74" 12.9"
Winchester 44 Magnum 210 gr JHP 71 65 92% 0.81" 16.3"
Federal 357 SIG 125 gr JHP 24 22 92% 0.62" 12.3"
Federal 9 mm +P+ 115 gr JHP 189 172 91% 0.71" 13.9"

Stopping Power
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by TurtleDude



nonobaddog said:



No, no.......I've mentioned the Evan study.

Strangely enough, TurtleDude appears to be confused about what it found.

The Marshall book gave the .45 ACP a 96% ratio......tied with the 125 grain .357 Magnum......exceeded only by the .223 Remington and .308 Winchester.

Federal 308 168 gr Match 112 110 98% 0" 24.9"
Remington 223 69 gr JHP 40 39 98% 0.32" 16.9"
Federal 357 Magnum 125 gr JHP 641 615 96% 0.74" 11.1"
Federal 45 ACP 230 gr HS 173 166 96% 0.76" 13.9"
PMC 30-30 150 gr SF 44 42 95% 0.53" 19.6"
Remington 40 S&W 165 gr GS 146 137 94% 0.7" 13.9"
Remington 45 ACP +P 185 gr JHP 77 71 92% 0.74" 12.9"
Winchester 44 Magnum 210 gr JHP 71 65 92% 0.81" 16.3"
Federal 357 SIG 125 gr JHP 24 22 92% 0.62" 12.3"
Federal 9 mm +P+ 115 gr JHP 189 172 91% 0.71" 13.9"

Stopping Power
What's interesting is that study's findings differ greatly from the much larger FBI study. Wonder why that is.
Or who I should trust. The FBI or someone selling a book.
 
What's interesting is that study's findings differ greatly from the much larger FBI study. Wonder why that is.
Or who I should trust. The FBI or someone selling a book.

Considering that the FBI covered for the criminal Hillary.........
 
What's interesting is that study's findings differ greatly from the much larger FBI study. Wonder why that is.
Or who I should trust. The FBI or someone selling a book.

Got a link to your FBI "study?"
 
I have a few of the current production Remingtons and they are very "old school" in style and superb in fit, finish and function.

M1911 or A1 old school?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I love my 1911's. I've got three, each set up differently.

A lot of people like Glocks around here. Even though 1911's are my first choice, I have other firearms also. I just purchased a Sig Sauer P226 Legion and put a Surefire X300 tactical light on it. It has night sights, etc. Navy Seals have used Sig P226's for years. I prefer Sigs to Glocks. Here's the P226 Legion.

Sig P226 Legion.jpg
 
I love my 1911's. I've got three, each set up differently.

A lot of people like Glocks around here. Even though 1911's are my first choice, I have other firearms also. I just purchased a Sig Sauer P226 Legion and put a Surefire X300 tactical light on it. It has night sights, etc. Navy Seals have used Sig P226's for years. I prefer Sigs to Glocks. Here's the P226 Legion.

View attachment 67206513
Sig makes a good gun and you are right SEALs use them. Of course they are all switching to Glocks now but the 226 is still a fine gun.
 
My Springfield TRP Operator (Tactical) with Valkyrie Dynamics compensator and Punisher grips. I've since upgraded those grips with a better grade of Punisher grips.

Springfield Punisher.jpg
 
I own 2 (standard) 1911's from Springfield Armory. I love the lack of muzzle flip. Easy to re-acquire the target. Had 5 lbs of Unique sitting in the cabinet, so about 7grains (if I remember right) of that is what I load up over a 230 grain LRN bullet.
 
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