Pentagon: North Korean Missiles Can Reach The United States

ecofarm said:

Oh, please! Are you now talking tough for the Iranian regime?

hahahaha


Look, dude, no matter what BS you might invent and no matter how inane, groundless and senseless your assessment may be, the fact remains:

Iran does not have the right to "participate in the arms race" and it will be bombed.

Click to expand...

They did not succumb to sanctions. Up the ante.

RDS said:

They did not succumb to sanctions. Up the ante.

Click to expand...

What are you talking about? There is no doubt, whatsoever, that the US and/or Israel will bomb Iran.

This is not a "good thing". This is not something that anyone wants. But this is something that everyone can see will happen.

ecofarm said:

What are you talking about? There is not doubt, whatsoever, that the US and/or Israel will bomb Iran.

This is not a "good thing". This is not something that anyone wants. But this is something that everyone can see will happen.

Click to expand...

Like I said earlier - walk the talk.

RDS said:

Like I said earlier - walk the talk.

Click to expand...

Like I said earlier, everyone (except you) knows this will happen.

ecofarm said:

Like I said earlier, everyone (except you) knows this will happen.

Click to expand...

Buy time first to fix that anti-missile system.

RDS said:

Buy time first to fix that anti-missile system.

Click to expand...

This is stupid. You're pretending to provoke the inevitable.

Time to start the aggressive regime undermining campaign of the 1950s/cold war. Why escalate with military? We got plenty of playbooks to dust off on spycraft.

Simple. Start a civil war. Give a general some power and wait. Then give some other people weapons. Let it all break loose.

Unless Kim is just bat**** insane, he will not attack the US. He will make overtures...he will threaten...he will launch a few more missiles to show how dangerous he is. If he doesn't get the desired result he would far more likely attack South Korea with a volley of conventional missiles and blame it on the US. And under the current situation, he would probably get away with it.

Bombing Iran is simple and straight foward. That would not deny Iran the ability to conduct further urnaioum enrichment. You can't bomb their knowledge.

samsmart said:

If the US was to engage in such military operations, the PRC would intervene on North Korea's behalf in order to maintain a buffer state on the Korean Peninsula. In which case there would be war between the US and the PRC. Which would be quite catastrophic.

Click to expand...

To be honest, I wonder how quick China would be to jump in on the side of North Korea once again.

Remember, they did so once before, and basically had their keisters handed to them because of it. And at that time, their economy was not dependent on export like it is today. If North Korea attacked South Korea again, it would once again not be a US operation (although the US would likely provide most of the firepower), but a UN operation. I would expect it would follow along these lines:

1. The US quickly mobilizes it's forces and responds to the conflict.
2. The UN starts having emergency meetings, issues a condemnation.
3. NATO mobilizes and responds to the conflict.
4. The UN has more meetings, issues an ultimatum.
5. Australia and other nations will respond to the conflict.
6. The UN finally gets involved, and more forces come to the aid of South Korea.

And considering the buying power of the US (not to mention the NATO nations and others that would likely come to help), the PRC will likely sit it out other then providing some covert aid. This is no longer 1950, and do not expect China to send 1.3 million troops into the grinder. And if they were foolish enough to try, expect nation after nation to place an internal embargo on China and see most of their trade come to a crashing halt.

China knows this, and they are not stupid. If they do assist N. Korea, it would be along the lines that the Soviets did 60 years ago. Some equipment, some advisors, maybe some pilots, but that is about all. They simply have to much to loose this time.

ecofarm said:

I disagree. China interfering could risk a cancellation of debt, which would end the state of China almost immediately.

Click to expand...

That would be nothing to the effect of the loss almost immediately of over 1/3 of their import-export market. And since there are many other nations that would likely jump in as well (NATO for one), China would soon be almost completely crippled economically.

Most do not realize the house of cards that China has built itself. The majority of their economy is based upon taking or importing raw materials, and exporting finished products. The US alone is almost 1/3 of that figure, and Europe is another 1/3. So with the US and a big chunk of NATO involved in a conflict with China, do you think they will continue to trade with China?

There is an old saying, "If you owe the bank $100 that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that's the bank's problem."

In 1950, China could alienate most of the world, because their economy was small and almost entirely internal. 60 years later this is no longer the case, their economy is almost entirely dependent on foreign trade. And none of this "trade" is of critical importance to the rest of the world. COSCO furniture, ePhones, and lots of other consumer and light-luxury goods that a nation can do without and other nations can build.

Compared to what they would loose in trade and asset removal and "brain drain", the loss of "debt cancellation" is nothing.

TheDemSocialist said:

If they can it really doesnt worry me. If they hit our country they will be gone in a heartbeat. They are stupid but they are not that crazy. Plus we have damn good anti missile defense system form my understanding.

Click to expand...

Well, yes and no. Yes and no.

We have among the best missile-defense systems in the world. But are they where they need to be to do any good?

At this time, we essentially have 3.5 "Missile Defense Systems".

1. Aegis, aboard our Guided Missile Cruisers and Destroyers. However, these have to be in the right place to be used, with the missiles going to locations where they can actually intercept them.
2. Ground-Based Midcourse Defense. These are the missiles at Vandenberg California and Ft. Greely Alaska. However, these are both only test facilities, not constantly manned, and not always operational.
3. PATRIOT, but these are short-range systems. You have to have the Batteries within roughly 40 miles of the intended target, and they can only fire at almost the last possible moment.
3.5. THAAD, basically "PATRIOT on steroids", needs to be within around 100 miles of the target.

And that's really it. Over the last 4 years most of our missile defense systems have been cancelled, decreased, mothballed, or placed on permanent hold. This is because these systems are a frequent target in the "Bullets Vs. Butter" debate.

16 June 2009: Lawmakers are demanding to know why the president's proposed 2010 defense budget cuts missile defense by $1.2 billion and does not provide any funds for the European missile defense shield as Iran and North Korea defy the international community with missile testing.

Click to expand...

Lawmakers Question Obama's Missile Defense Cuts | Fox News

"I will cut investments in unproven missile defense systems, I will not weaponize space. I will slow our development of future combat systems…"

Click to expand...

Candidate Obama in 2008





Our missile defense system is a great system, but it has some serious issues. We have been mothballing viable systems, and even operational systems. What we have is only effective in certain areas, and not at all in others. And much of what we do have is not in an operational status (mostly related to maintenance issues).

stonewall50 said:

Simple. Start a civil war. Give a general some power and wait. Then give some other people weapons. Let it all break loose.

Click to expand...

Sounds nice.

To bad you never know what you may end up with after the dust falls.

Are you willing to be responsible for a repeat of the Iraqi mass graves if it fails?

If it works, do you want to see a possibly even more fanatical government take it's place? It is easy to start a civil war, much harder to guide it. Remember, some in "The West" gave initial support to the Bolsheviks and National Socialists in Russia and Germany, because either one was seen as an improvement over the current or other potential groups. And look how those decisions turned out.

I mean, look at that wonderful Civil War in Cambodia a few decades ago. I sure as hell do not ever want to see a repeat of anything like that.

Oozlefinch said:

Compared to what they would loose in trade and asset removal and "brain drain", the loss of "debt cancellation" is nothing.

Click to expand...

2012, the US bought 110b from China. The debt is over 1t. The debt is 10 times what China gets in a year from the US, the interest on that debt is ~30% of annual trade?

ecofarm said:

2012, the US bought 110b from China. The debt is over 1t. The debt is 10 times what China gets in a year from the US, the interest on that debt is ~30% of annual trade?

Click to expand...

This is "debt" in the form of long term loans. mostly in the exact same "T-Bills" that corporations and individuals buy in the US and other nations. It is not like China is loaning money as a bank would. They are buying essentially bonds. They can't be "called in" the way a bank calls in a loan. And yes, you can cash in a T-bill or bond early, but you take a tremendous hit when you do so (try turning in a 20 years Savings Bond after 3 years and you will see what I mean).

But the loss of trade has a trickle-down effect that is much more disastrous. The loss of US trade would mean that effectively 33%+ of Chinese employees are suddenly without work. Corporations pulling out (think Apple) means that they not only loose this business with the US, but the rest of the world. Just think of how many US Corporations do business in China that goes out to the rest of the world (Apple, Dell, HP, Intel, IBM, AMD, etc, etc, etc). The sudden departure of these corporations would be devastating to the Chinese economy, both external and internal.

An Apple pulling out of China does not just effect the 30% of those sales that go to the US, but 100% of their sales that to all over the world. And do not expect it to just be the US. I expect half of Europe and big chunks of Asia would also follow. Samsung, Goldstar, Sony, Hatachi, Nintendo, Electrolux, LG, Siemens, the list just goes on and on.

And expect a great many countries to do it just for purely internal reasons. A lot of companies are now stuck dealing with China, if they like it or not. Given a casus belli, I suspect many would happily leave China and bring those jobs back home, or to other countries where they are more distributed and less likely to turn against them. I have long suspected that a lot of the "Economic Funk" of Europe is due to the exporting of a lot of jobs, 1% here, 4% there. Bringing just 10-20% of those jobs back home from China would likely be a windfall to their local economies.

RDS said:

Bombing Iran is simple and straight foward. That would not deny Iran the ability to conduct further urnaioum enrichment. You can't bomb their knowledge.

Click to expand...

No but you can kidnap it.

Excon said:

Yes they are a threat.
One you obviously don't get.

Click to expand...

Cool, they can make a rocket go up without disintegrating. There's a lot more to an effective ICBM than just going up. Things like a guidance system for sub-orbital flight, and reentry. Then there's our defense systems, and the fact that they face annihilation if they launch such a strike on anyone.

I lived in South Korea for two years, I fully understand the threat they pose. That threat doesn't involve an assault on the continental United States.

Surtr said:

Cool, they can make a rocket go up without disintegrating. There's a lot more to an effective ICBM than just going up. Things like a guidance system for sub-orbital flight, and reentry. Then there's our defense systems, and the fact that they face annihilation if they launch such a strike on anyone.

I lived in South Korea for two years, I fully understand the threat they pose. That threat doesn't involve an assault on the continental United States.

Click to expand...

Unless you lived there after they obtained it, you lived there when they didn't have the capability. Just as I lived there when they didn't have the capability. BFD!
My step mother is Korean. So what?
You want to compare our sizes too?



They have the capability now to reach our shores. They are a direct threat.


And it is only a matter of time for them to become an even greater threat.

Oozlefinch said:

This is "debt" in the form of long term loans. mostly in the exact same "T-Bills" that corporations and individuals buy in the US and other nations. It is not like China is loaning money as a bank would. They are buying essentially bonds. They can't be "called in" the way a bank calls in a loan. And yes, you can cash in a T-bill or bond early, but you take a tremendous hit when you do so (try turning in a 20 years Savings Bond after 3 years and you will see what I mean).

Click to expand...

They're getting some kind of payments, in actual cash, right? At least the interest, I presume. That is ~30%? of the total trade US to China. You noted the trade loss (I'll presume Europe stays out of a minor/indirect conflict). That trade, 2012, was ~110b. The interest alone on ~1.2t+ is what I presume China is paid in cash, as interest on debt.

Are you gonna tell me we never give them actual cash payment on debt? They can't be that gullible.

Goshin said:

So far, I see exactly two people on this thread who have a clue.


I have to wonder if it has something to do with having grown up during the Cold War, doing Civil Defense drills in school, all in deadly earnest.

Click to expand...

I think you got that one right. The duck-and-cover drills definitely left an impression.

RDS said:

They maybe rogue nations both N. Korea and Iran. They have the right to participate in the arms race.

Click to expand...

That makes as much sense as letting a certified whack-job carry a machine gun into a schoolyard.

Virtually no chance NK launches nukes against America.

They do and they will be obliterated within an hour.

They know it.

People worried about the 'Godless Soviets' 30+ years ago...and they didn't launch either.

Dictators love one thing more then power...nothing.

And they are not about to throw it away by committing suicide.

Odds of NK or Iran or any other country launching nukes at America are so extreme that it's not worth calculating.

DA60 said:

Virtually no chance NK launches nukes against America.

They do and they will be obliterated within an hour.

They know it.

People worried about the 'Godless Soviets' 30+ years ago...and they didn't launch either.

Dictators love one thing more then power...nothing.

And they are not about to throw it away by committing suicide.

Odds of NK or Iran or any other country launching nukes at America are so extreme that it's not worth calculating.

Click to expand...

Your opinion has been duly noted. Since your opinion on other matters has also been duly noted, this one (along with all the others) has also been duly dismissed.

Goshin said:

Your opinion has been duly noted. Since your opinion on other matters has also been duly noted, this one (along with all the others) has also been duly dismissed.

Click to expand...

Good, since I have virtually no respect for your posts - ignore away.


BTW - typical Goshin retort...long on emotion and nonsense.

Short on links to facts to prove his point.

DA60 said:

Good, since I have virtually no respect for your posts - ignore away.

Click to expand...

Alas, my heart fair breaks... :lol:

RDS said:

N. Korea is not an easy prey unlike Iraq and Afghanistan.

Click to expand...

Those people are insane. They talk like insane people. They behave like insane people. I had a patient once who was known for trashing the offices of her providers. She trashed my office one day. I had a lot of plants in it and there wasn't one inch on the sofa, chairs, floor, or my desk that didn't have flower pot dirt on it. But she didn't damage one certificate or mess up anything costly. That is N Korea. They will lob a nuke at the US, but they will make it hit where nothing is really harmed except the air. When that happens, we blow them off the planet.