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Rahm Emanuel to require post-high school plan to get diploma.

They passed the required courses.
no, they did not
they did not fulfill the requirement to accomplish a post graduation plan
no plan no participation trophy

They earned a diploma.
nope. they failed to meet the requirements necessary to be eligible to receive their diplomas

Simple as that.
it IS simple. they failed to meet the requirements imposed by the public school to graduate and receive a diploma

Any requirement beyond passing the courses is government intrusion.
here we agree
however, the students who failed to meet the graduation requirements - such as fulfilling the requirement to perform a post graduation assignment - rendered themselves ineligible to graduate and thus, were denied a diploma
as you noted "simple as that"
 
no, they did not
they did not fulfill the requirement to accomplish a post graduation plan
no plan no participation trophy


nope. they failed to meet the requirements necessary to be eligible to receive their diplomas


it IS simple. they failed to meet the requirements imposed by the public school to graduate and receive a diploma


here we agree
however, the students who failed to meet the graduation requirements - such as fulfilling the requirement to perform a post graduation assignment - rendered themselves ineligible to graduate and thus, were denied a diploma
as you noted "simple as that"

Well, bubba, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic. By your logic, there is no end to administrative requirements that can be levied against anyone using government services.
 
Insight into the police state. This is where liberals want to take us. Well, we're just about there.

I think a high school student should have a post graduation plan. It just shouldn't be government mandated and tied to getting that diploma. Is there no limit to government intrusion into private lives?
Actually, the basis for this policy was crafted by the Reagan administration. The problem here is that Chicago is doing this with the nuance and flexibility of a gorilla.

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That's insane.
It's a poor way to do life planning in public schools, but for about 12% of the student population, life planning has been done for about 25 years. The difference there is, we don't punish the student for not having a post-school outcome. We look at what the school is doing, instead.

Penalizing the student for what is ostensibly a systems change issue, is a very, very bad idea.

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they did NOT earn their diploma
because they failed to fulfill the school's requirement to create a post graduation plan
it's not punishment
it is no different than had they not passed the number of credits required to graduate

That is, by definition, a punishment for the student.

The inherent purpose of this is to address systemic issues within the education system by pushing the school a little more into the purview of the family. As such, the onus for proof ought not come from the family, but rather from the school.

If the idea is merely to identify a plan, the onus is on the school to collect that. The school can quickly say, for instance, "Student X has identified that they are interested in pursuing postsecondary education, perhaps in the field of A." They may be able to go further by identifying what Student X is intending to pursue as their career.

If the idea is to demonstrate that the student, by virtue of having received a public education, has a viable path to some sort of post-secondary outcome, that too ought to be on the onus of the school to provide documentation on. This is most useful for providing information about coursework student has pursued, what outlets the school has intentionally given student access to for purpose of fulfilling this plan, etc.

For monitoring and enforcement What we do for special education students we keep track of the number of students who have or do not have a "transition plan" that meets the criteria for Indicator 13. We intervene when something is going wrong with an individual student or with a school, district, or state.

What we also do is post-school outcome data analysis--Indicator 14. This has far far less to do with directly holding schools accountable than tracking the results. It can inform accountability measures, but it's primarily a data analysis measure.

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Americans in general education havent been exposed to this level of intentional results-driven accountability. As such, there are no cultural supports for something far more direct toward the student than currently exists for those that have been reared under Transition policy since about 1990. Whatever problems general education students and their families would have if what happens to special education students happens to them, it would be wise to not be even more punitive.

It would be much more prudent to see this as a quick form to fill out, for the purpose of data collection and analysis between schools, higher ed, and employers later on.

Soft touch:

Reduces the tensions between families and staff

Reduces the amount of control schools have over adolescents and parents in comparison with something special education students and their families experience.

Enables schools, districts, and if desired, state departments of education to do more self-reflection on what it feels it must do to better serve their students.

Encourages better working relationship between district and state public schools with state higher ed.

Data analysis=good public policy.

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It would be just peachy if the school were held accountable for the student being counseled on career choices and indicating what they may be interested in. I suspect they are punishing the student rather than tackle the teacher unions or school district. Withhold funding from schools whose students have no plan. But don't punish the students. Many of them, unless they're gifted, special, or trouble makers, may never see a counselor in their entire high school career. Counselors focus much more these days administering and organizing testing schedules and other administrative duties, and dealing with special ed paperwork than they ever do career counseling ordinary students.

BTW; I'm not blaming counselors; there's lots of good ones. They just get everything under the sun dumped on them.
 
It would be just peachy if the school were held accountable for the student being counseled on career choices and indicating what they may be interested in. I suspect they are punishing the student rather than tackle the teacher unions or school district. Withhold funding from schools whose students have no plan. But don't punish the students. Many of them, unless they're gifted, special, or trouble makers, may never see a counselor in their entire high school career. Counselors focus much more these days administering and organizing testing schedules and other administrative duties, and dealing with special ed paperwork than they ever do career counseling ordinary students.

BTW; I'm not blaming counselors; there's lots of good ones. They just get everything under the sun dumped on them.
[emphasis added by bubba]


you have clearly explained that we should GIVE the students a diploma even tho they have not fulfilled their academic requirements to graduate
as is indicated above, you would not cause the students to bear consequences for their failure to fulfill the school's graduation requirements
yet you would withhold funding from the school for that very same failure to do the academic work required to meet graduation requirements
the only leverage the school holds to motivate the student to complete a post graduation assessment is to deny them the graduation diploma. something you object to. but for that same failure of the students to follow thru, you want to take funds from the school ... after withdrawing the only leverage the high schools had to cause the student to complete the post graduation assessment
 
[emphasis added by bubba]


you have clearly explained that we should GIVE the students a diploma even tho they have not fulfilled their academic requirements to graduate
as is indicated above, you would not cause the students to bear consequences for their failure to fulfill the school's graduation requirements
yet you would withhold funding from the school for that very same failure to do the academic work required to meet graduation requirements
the only leverage the school holds to motivate the student to complete a post graduation assessment is to deny them the graduation diploma. something you object to. but for that same failure of the students to follow thru, you want to take funds from the school ... after withdrawing the only leverage the high schools had to cause the student to complete the post graduation assessment

I don't want to take funds from anybody. I'm just saying if you have to punish somebody, you're dead set on punishing somebody, punish the school not the student. I think the whole idea to require a plan, which will be made-up BS anyways, is a stupid idea that could only appeal to a lifelong government paper pusher with nothing better to do than think of ways to screw around with kid's lives. Jeeze, when I finished high school I had no friggin' idea what I wanted to do. I had no real life experience as yet, so I couldn't have made any type of intelligent decision, but just knew I wanted to be done with school. Man am I glad nobody forced me to choose back then. Or prevented me from receiving my diploma. If forced I would have just made up some crap. Wonder if the kid would get his diploma if he said his career plans were to join ISIS? Or a girl who aspires to be the best darn stripper ever !!! Do they now get their diplomas? Ya--hoooo !!! Of course, I'm not sure you actually need a diploma for either of those occupations.
 
I think the whole idea to require a plan, which will be made-up BS anyways, is a stupid idea that could only appeal to a lifelong government paper pusher with nothing better to do than think of ways to screw around with kid's lives. Jeeze, when I finished high school I had no friggin' idea what I wanted to do. I had no real life experience as yet, so I couldn't have made any type of intelligent decision, but just knew I wanted to be done with school. Man am I glad nobody forced me to choose back then. Or prevented me from receiving my diploma. If forced I would have just made up some crap. Wonder if the kid would get his diploma if he said his career plans were to join ISIS? Or a girl who aspires to be the best darn stripper ever !!! Do they now get their diplomas? Ya--hoooo !!! Of course, I'm not sure you actually need a diploma for either of those occupations.

It depends on the fundamental purpose behind the policy. For instance, when this was first being considered for students with disabilities, it was because early government findings saw that maybe 25-40% of all students with disabilities dropped out of school (no doubt much worse in more specific categories), between 50-75% of all persons with disabilities were unemployed, massive swaths of them had far less than desirable independent living, and so on. By about the time the policy became a federal requirement, federally-funded research discovered that a little over 14% pursued some form of postsecondary education, in comparison with students without disabilities who attended at a rate of about 55% within the first year or two of high school graduation.

If youre looking at that and going, "my God, this needs to change", you would be quite reasonable. And so, changed it did. From about 1984-1990 things substantially changed, from devising the overall structure of the policy, the bureaucracy to handle it, etc.

So, really, I am all for improvement in public education, with rigorous demands on staff. But, grasping the issue and framing it are very important for it to be seen as legitimate.

So, you folks tell me. Is general public education doing a satisfactory enough job in preparing young people for work and adult life that it doesnt need an overhaul?

If so, that's an answer. If not, which I suspect will be the case, what are we willing to do about it and how far are we comfortable with going?

It tells me a lot when the Chicago Tribune says this is unheard of, although it has been done more substantially in every public high school since the early 1990s.

I say, start slow and use this as a data collection method rather than a punitive measure toward students (which is always a bad idea) or staff. If we don't like what we see in several or more years, we can take action.

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It would be just peachy if the school were held accountable for the student being counseled on career choices and indicating what they may be interested in. I suspect they are punishing the student rather than tackle the teacher unions or school district. Withhold funding from schools whose students have no plan. But don't punish the students. Many of them, unless they're gifted, special, or trouble makers, may never see a counselor in their entire high school career. Counselors focus much more these days administering and organizing testing schedules and other administrative duties, and dealing with special ed paperwork than they ever do career counseling ordinary students.

BTW; I'm not blaming counselors; there's lots of good ones. They just get everything under the sun dumped on them.

Fyi, counselors aren't able to do special education paperwork or much of anything with those students, for that matter. Most of that is because they lack the proper education, certifications necessary to oversee such a student's case. Most of the other stuff is because they don't view them as regular students...or sometimes, regular kids in need of guidance. Its a rarity for them be at the kids IEP meetings.

In fact, with career issues, things are so compartmentalized, having counselor involvement or advisement is a rarity, at best across the country.

Due to WIOA, states across the country are improving state agency communication and cooperation.

In my state, because the VR agency needs to spend about 15% of its funds on "transition services," it has hired a number of career counselors to work with students with disabilities in developing their career goals, networking, and postsecondary education exploration. If or once those grant dollars fade away, you can see schools act as if career counselors giving career advice for students with disabilities is "beyond our capabilities." About 3/4 of all students with disabilities have minor disabilities, such as learning disabilities. So, that told me quite a bit about the limitations of sustainability of public policy in education in the 21st Century. ;)

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I don't want to take funds from anybody.
really? this is an excerpt from post #132:
Withhold funding from schools whose students have no plan.

I'm just saying if you have to punish somebody, you're dead set on punishing somebody, punish the school not the student.
you see this requirement as punishment. it is not. it is a prerequisite to be fulfilled before becoming eligible to receive one's HS diploma. not unlike requiring four years of english, two of math to include algebra, etc. demonstrating one has accomplished each of the prerequisites to earn a diploma tells the state, prospective employers, and colleges that the student has met the baseline requirements to receive a HS diploma. it has been earned; not given
if any of those prerequisites are not met - including the requirement to create a post graduation plan - the student is not eligible to graduate with an earned diploma. that is how the system has worked for many, many decades. surprised you are unfamiliar with it

I think the whole idea to require a plan, which will be made-up BS anyways, is a stupid idea that could only appeal to a lifelong government paper pusher with nothing better to do than think of ways to screw around with kid's lives.
$600 Billion is spent each year to teach our students. the state identifies what it expects the student to achieve to progress to graduation. that student has spent the past 13 years attending school to ultimately leave the public school system as an emancipated adult. the public has provided the kids with an education to provide them the skills to emerge into the work force or to higher education institutions. this is the only assignment placed upon the student for the student - NOT the state - to consider what they will do with this bundle of skills once they are graduated into the economy. many students will already have an idea what they plan to do next. some will go to college. others will join the military. many will have jobs lined up. for them, this is a crib course. they have already pondered what they will do as their next step after graduation. but there will be many others who haven't a clue what they will do. each year, they have attended school and done what the school expected of them. making independent decisions was not required to accomplish that. but next year there will be no public school. there will be a need to become self sufficient, financially. this assignment compels those students to think about what they intend to do to become independent and financially self sufficient. this is especially needed by students whose families subsist on welfare. they have not seen someone waking up in the morning to go to work to earn a living. instead, they see someone who goes to the mailbox the first of the month to receive that stipend from the state. unless we want the next generation to do the same, it makes great sense for the state to motivate the student to figure out a way to earn an income for themselves. this HS assignment kickstarts that expectation

Jeeze, when I finished high school I had no friggin' idea what I wanted to do. I had no real life experience as yet, so I couldn't have made any type of intelligent decision, but just knew I wanted to be done with school.
so, share with us, how did that not having a plan work out; what did you do?

Man am I glad nobody forced me to choose back then.
why? what is so difficult about assessing what you want to do upon leaving HS? what is so awful about pondering your future? unless you have ****ed up in school and realize that your choices are now very limited and not very encouraging. and then, while in school, the student has the resources of the school, guidance counselors and teachers, to try to figure out a better alternative

Or prevented me from receiving my diploma. If forced I would have just made up some crap.
but you would have thought about your future to some degree. and your post graduation plan would have to make sense to pass

Wonder if the kid would get his diploma if he said his career plans were to join ISIS?
my bet is his plan was to soon receive a visit from homeland security agents. a good thing

Or a girl who aspires to be the best darn stripper ever !!! Do they now get their diplomas? Ya--hoooo !!! Of course, I'm not sure you actually need a diploma for either of those occupations.
dancing is a legal occupation, so it probably would be found an acceptable post graduation prospect. less doable if she was obese, hence the opportunity for her to identify what activities she would need to pursue to become a stripper who actually earned a sustainable income

bottom line, if we fail to plan then we are probably planning to fail
something kids need to understand before leaving school
 
It strikes as odd that this wouldn't be a punishment for students if we are not considering what came beforehand, let alone the impact of the policy by virtue of a student having the misfortune of residing in the Chicago Public School district, as opposed to, say, the Springfield Public School district.

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really? this is an excerpt from post #132:


you see this requirement as punishment. it is not. it is a prerequisite to be fulfilled before becoming eligible to receive one's HS diploma. not unlike requiring four years of english, two of math to include algebra, etc. demonstrating one has accomplished each of the prerequisites to earn a diploma tells the state, prospective employers, and colleges that the student has met the baseline requirements to receive a HS diploma. it has been earned; not given
if any of those prerequisites are not met - including the requirement to create a post graduation plan - the student is not eligible to graduate with an earned diploma. that is how the system has worked for many, many decades. surprised you are unfamiliar with it


$600 Billion is spent each year to teach our students. the state identifies what it expects the student to achieve to progress to graduation. that student has spent the past 13 years attending school to ultimately leave the public school system as an emancipated adult. the public has provided the kids with an education to provide them the skills to emerge into the work force or to higher education institutions. this is the only assignment placed upon the student for the student - NOT the state - to consider what they will do with this bundle of skills once they are graduated into the economy. many students will already have an idea what they plan to do next. some will go to college. others will join the military. many will have jobs lined up. for them, this is a crib course. they have already pondered what they will do as their next step after graduation. but there will be many others who haven't a clue what they will do. each year, they have attended school and done what the school expected of them. making independent decisions was not required to accomplish that. but next year there will be no public school. there will be a need to become self sufficient, financially. this assignment compels those students to think about what they intend to do to become independent and financially self sufficient. this is especially needed by students whose families subsist on welfare. they have not seen someone waking up in the morning to go to work to earn a living. instead, they see someone who goes to the mailbox the first of the month to receive that stipend from the state. unless we want the next generation to do the same, it makes great sense for the state to motivate the student to figure out a way to earn an income for themselves. this HS assignment kickstarts that expectation


so, share with us, how did that not having a plan work out; what did you do?


why? what is so difficult about assessing what you want to do upon leaving HS? what is so awful about pondering your future? unless you have ****ed up in school and realize that your choices are now very limited and not very encouraging. and then, while in school, the student has the resources of the school, guidance counselors and teachers, to try to figure out a better alternative


but you would have thought about your future to some degree. and your post graduation plan would have to make sense to pass


my bet is his plan was to soon receive a visit from homeland security agents. a good thing


dancing is a legal occupation, so it probably would be found an acceptable post graduation prospect. less doable if she was obese, hence the opportunity for her to identify what activities she would need to pursue to become a stripper who actually earned a sustainable income

bottom line, if we fail to plan then we are probably planning to fail
something kids need to understand before leaving school

I'm not opposed to planning. We should encourage students to do so. In fact, we should go further; every high school student should be offered a series of internships in careers of their choosing. So they can develop some intelligent idea of what they may want to do. But hold a gun to their head under threat of denying them their diploma; that's beyond the pale.

What did I do after high school? I got a draft number of 4, which meant I was sure to end up in a foxhole in Vietnam. So I beat them to it and joined the Navy. Naval aviation to be specific. Got to travel, and grew up a lot. After my hitch ended, I used the GI Bill to go to college. Already had a lot of undergrad credits by way of the Navy. Ended up with two Masters and a long career teaching and building. Been to every state and many foreign countries in the process.
 
I'm not opposed to planning. We should encourage students to do so. In fact, we should go further; every high school student should be offered a series of internships in careers of their choosing. So they can develop some intelligent idea of what they may want to do. But hold a gun to their head under threat of denying them their diploma; that's beyond the pale.

What did I do after high school? I got a draft number of 4, which meant I was sure to end up in a foxhole in Vietnam. So I beat them to it and joined the Navy. Naval aviation to be specific. Got to travel, and grew up a lot. After my hitch ended, I used the GI Bill to go to college. Already had a lot of undergrad credits by way of the Navy. Ended up with two Masters and a long career teaching and building. Been to every state and many foreign countries in the process.

then it appears you DID have a plan
enlist before you got drafted

many of the kids who need to be planning their futures do not have the grades or other qualifications to enlist. and no way will they be drafted - unfortunately

and with bad grades, they will not be going to universities

which then tells us they are at risk - and most in need of acquiring some situational awareness ability - which could be gained by preparing a post graduation plan

drawing a welfare check will not require a HS diploma
 
then it appears you DID have a plan
enlist before you got drafted

many of the kids who need to be planning their futures do not have the grades or other qualifications to enlist. and no way will they be drafted - unfortunately

and with bad grades, they will not be going to universities

which then tells us they are at risk - and most in need of acquiring some situational awareness ability - which could be gained by preparing a post graduation plan

drawing a welfare check will not require a HS diploma

Just to note a simple fact...

Any graduate of a Chicago public high school is automatically eligible to be admitted to a City College, which qualifies as a ‘post graduation plan’.

Libertarian hissy fits aside, this is an eminently practical and easy to fulfill graduation requirement.

It’s purpose is merely to get students thinking about life and opportunities after graduation.
 
then it appears you DID have a plan
enlist before you got drafted

many of the kids who need to be planning their futures do not have the grades or other qualifications to enlist. and no way will they be drafted - unfortunately

and with bad grades, they will not be going to universities

which then tells us they are at risk - and most in need of acquiring some situational awareness ability - which could be gained by preparing a post graduation plan

drawing a welfare check will not require a HS diploma

Wasn't a plan, it was Uncle Sam. You keep restating the need to plan, like I'm against that. Of course they need to plan; but not with a gun to their head.
 
Who dug this old thread up? :lol: I still agree with Rahm on this one.
 
Don’t know who dug it up, but I’m betting it didn’t fly. And I sure don’t agree with it.

so you like paying welfare to young people who just graduated because they had no plan to become self sufficient after leaving high school
 
so you like paying welfare to young people who just graduated because they had no plan to become self sufficient after leaving high school

No, I don’t like the gvmt holding my diploma hostage. Change the welfare laws.
 
so you like paying welfare to young people who just graduated because they had no plan to become self sufficient after leaving high school



because taking away thier highschool diploma if they don't submit will improve everything!
 
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