PA pushing Quartet to recognize 1967 borders

Mika-El · Mar 21, 2011

washunut said:
I think what you state above refuses to address the much darker point that is reflected on this site. I also think you know that. There are a core of people that do not want to discuss the merits of any of the threads posed on this site, but use it as an excuse to spew their anti-israel, anti-semitic hatred.

I feel the above and I must point out I feel the exact same way about some on this forum who use the conflict as an excuse to spew their anti-Arab, anti Palestinian hatred as well.

I have called those people out just as I have the anti-semitic or anti Israeli ones and will continue to do so for the very same reasons.

I find either extreme just as repugnant.

Surely there is a way we can talk about this conflict without always resorting to making negative generalizations about all Jews, Muslims. Palestinians, Israelis, Arabs, Zionists.

Let's start by not demonizing either side with sweeping negative generalizations. 8 of 10 Palestinians? It sounds like a toothpaste commercial. They always say 8 out of 10 dentists recommend the toothpaste.

Sorry when I hear people trotting out alleged surveys to try rationalize a stereotype as being objectively based I don't buy it.

What I know is Palestinians and Israelis want the same thing, peace.

I am not going to call either side negative names. As long as that continues there can be no peace. I am like many. We are tired of the name calling by BOTH sides. None of us are above that criticism. We are all guilty of it. That is the nature of politics. It promotes partisan subjective opinions being passed as objective ones.

And by the way, you LOWER my blood pressure when you speak. Most times you remain calm and logical and I appreciate that. It is a role model for me to follow. I think it takes discipline to talk of issues of such strong emotional connection to you, and you can remain for the most part dettached from taking the bait. That counts. That means a lot. Each person who comes on this forum and remains calm and rational and can see both sides of the debate and can avoid getting personal, they show us in simple terms how peace comes about. Yes it is possible. We demonstrate how it is possible just as easy as it is to call names and demonize each other.

washunut · Mar 21, 2011

Mika-El said:
I feel the above and I must point out I feel the exact same way about some on this forum who use the conflict as an excuse to spew their anti-Arab, anti Palestinian hatred as well.

I have called those people out just as I have the anti-semitic or anti Israeli ones and will continue to do so for the very same reasons.

I find either extreme just as repugnant.

Surely there is a way we can talk about this conflict without always resorting to making negative generalizations about all Jews, Muslims. Palestinians, Israelis, Arabs, Zionists.

Let's start by not demonizing either side with sweeping negative generalizations. 8 of 10 Palestinians? It sounds like a toothpaste commercial. They always say 8 out of 10 dentists recommend the toothpaste.

Sorry when I hear people trotting out alleged surveys to try rationalize a stereotype as being objectively based I don't buy it.

What I know is Palestinians and Israelis want the same thing, peace.

I am not going to call either side negative names. As long as that continues there can be no peace. I am like many. We are tired of the name calling by BOTH sides. None of us are above that criticism. We are all guilty of it. That is the nature of politics. It promotes partisan subjective opinions being passed as objective ones.

And by the way, you LOWER my blood pressure when you speak. Most times you remain calm and logical and I appreciate that. It is a role model for me to follow. I think it takes discipline to talk of issues of such strong emotional connection to you, and you can remain for the most part dettached from taking the bait. That counts. That means a lot. Each person who comes on this forum and remains calm and rational and can see both sides of the debate and can avoid getting personal, they show us in simple terms how peace comes about. Yes it is possible. We demonstrate how it is possible just as easy as it is to call names and demonize each other.

I agree that the abuses come from both sides of the arguement and want to thank you for the kind words.

I am not computer savvy and stumbled on this site using a question on google. Not sure if there is a such thing on the internet as a site that somehow can have reasoned debate. At least on this very emotional issue.

My sense is you are better at this internet stuff than I. If you know of such a site I would appreciate it if you would let me know.

alexa · Mar 21, 2011

ido_ said:
First of all I never said 8 out of 10 do not want peace, even your source said 10 out 10 want peace. 8 out of 10 believe Palestinians don't want peace and do not trust them - this is what I said. As for your logic with chicken and egg, lets put aside that you justify terrorizing civilian population and targeting civilians just because of settlments, there are no settlements in Gaza yet the rocket fire never halted, infact it only increased after the disengegment - what lead to the blockade.

No, my source Tom Segev, believes 8 out of 10 people do not believe peace is possible and he believes that is because of the settlements and that they will continue. He believes the problem is connected to people's need for identity. Due to the unlikelihood of any two state solution being possible due to this he believes that the one thing which can be done is to give the Palestinians human rights. I did not agree with everything he said but I think he is possibly the most objective person I have come across, although at times his objectivity seemed to strain credibility.

ido_ said:
I think that when Israel shows it is interestead in solving the dispute peacefully the Palestinians owe Israelies to stop using violence and terror, yes, I believe that 100%, do you disagree? Do you think Palestinians were just to bomb busses only few months after Israel signs a treaty with their leaders to give them autonomy? Do you think Arafat had legitimacy to start the 2nd intifada? Yes Alexa, when Israel shows it is serious about finding a peacefull solution the Palestinians owe us to stop terrorizing us.

There is far too much involved in this for me to answer in a forum. Far too much. However you only see one side. You fail completely to acknowledge Israel's violence towards palestinians.

Here are some things to consider from the Palestinian side.

Almost 58 percent of Palestinians live in poverty, and about half of this group lives in extreme poverty. About 50 percent of Palestinians experience or risk experiencing food insecurity. Food insecurity is particularly severe in Gaza, where the majority of the population relies on humanitarian assistance to survive. The rate of chronic malnutrition in children under the age of five has increased, reaching almost 10 percent, and the mortality figures for children under the age of one and under the age of five have each increased by about 30 percent. Anaemia is common, with 55 percent of children under the age of three affected by the condition. Among pregnant women, the rate is 36 percent―46 percent for nursing mothers. The West Bank and Gaza ranks 110 out of 182 countries on the United Nations Development Programme's

West Bank and Gaza - overview - CIDA

Gaza the Killing Zone - Part of a dispatches investigation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=fvsr

and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRb1uliOBis&feature=related

more information on above Occupation 101 :: Official Site

As to a peaceful solution. Is that really wanted because I do not believe that Israel would be increasing settlements if she wanted a two state solution. Me, myself, I would be much tougher. If I was prepared to go past the 48 boundaries, I would not allow one inch past the green line. Now if settlers wanted to stay in the Palestinian state as citizens of that State that would be fine provided they had previously shown no violence or other hockus pockus towards the Palestinians.

The Palestinians should never have turned to violence but you know there are very few people who have the charisma and heart to influence people like Gandhi and Martin Luther King. If the Palestinians had had such a person they would have had peace a long time ago. If they had not had the US turning a blind eye for all these years, there would have been peace a long time ago.

Suicide bombings are born of despair.

Simply, the period after OPA is characterized by a rapidly rising inequality between the Israelis and the Palestinians. - snip-
The attempts by Israel to rapidly separate itself (economically and politically) from the WBGS after the OPA prevented any viable economic development and worsened economic hardship relative to pre-OPA period.

http://www.eurojournals.com/ejss_7_4_02.pdf The report also says that what was evident in those who volunteered to be suicide bombers was that they had very strong grievances usually having lost a family member or friend at the hands of the Israelis. The report also pointed out that Israel's over reaction to situations tended to make people react more rather than less.

If you want to understand things you need to start seeing that you are dealing with human beings here. Human beings who become terrorists yes, but human beings first. I refer you to the Occupation 101 video again.

ido_ said:
Again you try to justify terror, why not saying "that was one horrible crime" period?

I do not try to 'justify terror'. However as you know my country has had a long history of dealing with it. There have been more than one real terror attacks in Northern Ireland in the past year or so and we are just dealing with things by the rule of law. No one has even been arrested for this crime yet. As far as the 'this is one horrible crime period', I would remind you it was myself who had to remind you of that when you were starting to bring in allegations against the Palestinians in the first thread on this. (This thread however is not about that crime, so anything concerning that is secondary to the topic of this thread)

ido_ said:
As for building houses, I agree its stupied, the number of checkpoints should have been increased again in the region as it is clear that when we try to make things easier for the Palestinians we get punished.

again, off you go with a kangaroo court.

ido_ said:
Did you ever look at the maps offered by Olmert and the Palestinian negotiation team? They tell a different story

What the heck does that have to do with the way the Palestinians of Hebron are being treated right now. Hebron should not be settled. It apparently takes 4 soldiers paid for out of ordinary Israeli's tax money to supposedly guard every Israeli illegally living there. Palestinians are treated brutally, lose their homes, their shops and lives and certainly one of the settlers hopes that eventually there lives will be made so much hell they will all leave. This imo should not be the way human beings treat each other just because they are more powerful.

ido_ said:
I'm afraid you do not understand the consept of nationality and perhaps you are not to strong in history where almost everycase of bi-national or multi-national state resulted a civil war between the nations

The nationality thing is possibly most pertiment to 19th 20th centrury Europe. Most European nations have little bother being cosmopolitan now. In Scotland Muslims are even favouring the Scottish Nationalist Party :shock:

ido_ said:
What does this have to do with this:
"You also derived checkpoints from settlements, checkpoints, just like the wall, are driven from terror, nothing else, if there was no terror there were no checkpoints, now you may suggest that terror derives from settlements but if you do and you suggest that checkpoints are driven from settlments this will ultimatly mean that you believe using terrorisem against the settlers is just wouldn't it?"

another day, it is late, I am tired and anyway I think Mira has dealt with this recently.

ido_ · Mar 22, 2011

Alexa, debating with you is a tough job, as you simply transmit on a different wavelength... try to stay focus and comprehand my arguments as they developed throughout the debate, I'll try to help you out.

alexa said:
No,

You said: "I think Tom Segev suggested about 8 out of 10 Israelis believed it was now impossible though he believes 10 out of ten would like peace."
And I replied: "8 out of 10 might think its impossible but not because of the settlments. ... Its the mistrust in Palestinians ... who make the ordinary Israeli doubt a peace treaty is impossible"
Then you said: "Basically you are saying that 8 out of ten people do not want peace"
which of course I didn't and replied: "First of all I never said 8 out of 10 do not want peace, even your source said 10 out 10 want peace"
and continued with: "8 out of 10 believe Palestinians don't want peace and do not trust them - this is what I said"

So how can you reply with "No" ??? its right there Black on Blue.

my source Tom Segev, believes 8 out of 10 people do not believe peace is possible and he believes that is because of the settlements and that they will continue. He believes the problem is connected to people's need for identity. Due to the unlikelihood of any two state solution being possible due to this he believes that the one thing which can be done is to give the Palestinians human rights. I did not agree with everything he said but I think he is possibly the most objective person I have come across, although at times his objectivity seemed to strain credibility.

Good for him, I do not agree with him, if 8 out of 10 don't believe peace is possible its because of mistrust in Palestinians, not because of the settlements.

There is far too much involved in this for me to answer in a forum. Far too much. However you only see one side. You fail completely to acknowledge Israel's violence towards palestinians.

Here are some things to consider from the Palestinian side.

West Bank and Gaza - overview - CIDA

Gaza the Killing Zone - Part of a dispatches investigation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=fvsr

and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRb1uliOBis&feature=related

more information on above Occupation 101 :: Official Site[/quote]

This argument has nothing to do with the fact that Palestinians repaid Israeli trust building actions with violence.

Yes, at 2000 after being attacked by the Pallestinians Israel responded with violance, should we just sit tight and take it? Even then Israel restrained itself and refrained from invading Palestinians cities until 2002 when Palestinians left us no choise.
Israel signed the Oslo accords with Palestinians in 1994, 6 years before the intifada, during this time Israel always engaged in negotiations with the Palestinians and suffered 19 bombings killing over 160 people, the west bank at the time was prospering like never before and when Barak pushed for a Palestinian state Arafat chose to engage in an armed conflict in 2000, the Palestinian suffering today is due to this poor decision.

And the day Israel left Gaza strip, all vilolent actions from the strip should have been ceased, not increased, this is how I see it and this is how the mistrust in the Palestinians developed over the years.

As to a peaceful solution. Is that really wanted because I do not believe that Israel would be increasing settlements if she wanted a two state solution. Me, myself, I would be much tougher. If I was prepared to go past the 48 boundaries, I would not allow one inch past the green line. Now if settlers wanted to stay in the Palestinian state as citizens of that State that would be fine provided they had previously shown no violence or other hockus pockus towards the Palestinians.

You are entitled to your beliefs. 10 out of 10 Israelies believe differently according to your quote of Tom Segev. I'd say its 9 out of 10 as there are some right wing extremists who do not see dismanteling of settlments as an option

The Palestinians should never have turned to violence but you know there are very few people who have the charisma and heart to influence people like Gandhi and Martin Luther King. If the Palestinians had had such a person they would have had peace a long time ago. If they had not had the US turning a blind eye for all these years, there would have been peace a long time ago.

If Palestinians didn't engage in violence in early 90s - which had a major contribution to the fact Rabin was murdered in 95 and Bibi elected in 96, and if they didn't turn to an armed conflict in 2000 there would have been peace a long time ago.

Suicide bombings are born of despair.

They are born of hate, there are many desporate people who don't blow themselves up

http://www.eurojournals.com/ejss_7_4_02.pdf The report also says that what was evident in those who volunteered to be suicide bombers was that they had very strong grievances usually having lost a family member or friend at the hands of the Israelis. The report also pointed out that Israel's over reaction to situations tended to make people react more rather than less.

If you want to understand things you need to start seeing that you are dealing with human beings here. Human beings who become terrorists yes, but human beings first. I refer you to the Occupation 101 video again.

I never claimed they aren't.

I do not try to 'justify terror'. However as you know my country has had a long history of dealing with it. There have been more than one real terror attacks in Northern Ireland in the past year or so and we are just dealing with things by the rule of law. No one has even been arrested for this crime yet. As far as the 'this is one horrible crime period', I would remind you it was myself who had to remind you of that when you were starting to bring in allegations against the Palestinians in the first thread on this. (This thread however is not about that crime, so anything concerning that is secondary to the topic of this thread)

What does the fact that no one has been arrested has to do with the fact that this was an act of terror done by Palestinians? Marsians did this?

again, off you go with a kangaroo court.

Whats a kangaroo court?

What the heck does that have to do with the way the Palestinians of Hebron are being treated right now. Hebron should not be settled. It apparently takes 4 soldiers paid for out of ordinary Israeli's tax money to supposedly guard every Israeli illegally living there. Palestinians are treated brutally, lose their homes, their shops and lives and certainly one of the settlers hopes that eventually there lives will be made so much hell they will all leave. This imo should not be the way human beings treat each other just because they are more powerful.

What the hack does criminal settler behaviour in Hebron have to do with the fact (according to you) that two state solution is impossible?

The nationality thing is possibly most pertiment to 19th 20th centrury Europe. Most European nations have little bother being cosmopolitan now. In Scotland Muslims are even favouring the Scottish Nationalist Party :shock:

Palestinians and Israelies are not Europians, you can't change us, we both want independence.

another day, it is late, I am tired and anyway I think Mira has dealt with this recently.

I guess it had nothing to do with it, you just tried to divert as usual.

justabubba · Mar 22, 2011

ido_ said:
Alexa, debating with you is a tough job, as you simply transmit on a different wavelength... try to stay focus and comprehand my arguments as they developed throughout the debate, I'll try to help you out.

You said: "I think Tom Segev suggested about 8 out of 10 Israelis believed it was now impossible though he believes 10 out of ten would like peace."
And I replied: "8 out of 10 might think its impossible but not because of the settlments. ... Its the mistrust in Palestinians ... who make the ordinary Israeli doubt a peace treaty is impossible"
Then you said: "Basically you are saying that 8 out of ten people do not want peace"
which of course I didn't and replied: "First of all I never said 8 out of 10 do not want peace, even your source said 10 out 10 want peace"
and continued with: "8 out of 10 believe Palestinians don't want peace and do not trust them - this is what I said"

So how can you reply with "No" ??? its right there Black on Blue.

Good for him, I do not agree with him, if 8 out of 10 don't believe peace is possible its because of mistrust in Palestinians, not because of the settlements.

There is far too much involved in this for me to answer in a forum. Far too much. However you only see one side. You fail completely to acknowledge Israel's violence towards palestinians.

Here are some things to consider from the Palestinian side.

West Bank and Gaza - overview - CIDA

Gaza the Killing Zone - Part of a dispatches investigation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=fvsr

and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRb1uliOBis&feature=related

more information on above Occupation 101 :: Official Site

This argument has nothing to do with the fact that Palestinians repaid Israeli trust building actions with violence.

Yes, at 2000 after being attacked by the Pallestinians Israel responded with violance, should we just sit tight and take it? Even then Israel restrained itself and refrained from invading Palestinians cities until 2002 when Palestinians left us no choise.
Israel signed the Oslo accords with Palestinians in 1994, 6 years before the intifada, during this time Israel always engaged in negotiations with the Palestinians and suffered 19 bombings killing over 160 people, the west bank at the time was prospering like never before and when Barak pushed for a Palestinian state Arafat chose to engage in an armed conflict in 2000, the Palestinian suffering today is due to this poor decision.

And the day Israel left Gaza strip, all vilolent actions from the strip should have been ceased, not increased, this is how I see it and this is how the mistrust in the Palestinians developed over the years.

You are entitled to your beliefs. 10 out of 10 Israelies believe differently according to your quote of Tom Segev. I'd say its 9 out of 10 as there are some right wing extremists who do not see dismanteling of settlments as an option

If Palestinians didn't engage in violence in early 90s - which had a major contribution to the fact Rabin was murdered in 95 and Bibi elected in 96, and if they didn't turn to an armed conflict in 2000 there would have been peace a long time ago.

They are born of hate, there are many desporate people who don't blow themselves up

I never claimed they aren't.

What does the fact that no one has been arrested has to do with the fact that this was an act of terror done by Palestinians? Marsians did this?

Whats a kangaroo court?

What the hack does criminal settler behaviour in Hebron have to do with the fact (according to you) that two state solution is impossible?

Palestinians and Israelies are not Europians, you can't change us, we both want independence.

I guess it had nothing to do with it, you just tried to divert as usual.

the rambling and incoherent post above strikes me as the musings of one who is trying to convince himself that his beliefs are valid

but prove me wrong and offer up something that responds to the thread topic:

PA pushing Quartet to recognize 1967 borders

ido_ · Mar 22, 2011

justabubba said:
the rambling and incoherent post above strikes me as the musings of one who is trying to convince himself that his beliefs are valid

Huh? I have to convince myself that Israelies do not trust Palestinians?
Do you deny that Palestinians never neglected terrorisem and every more Israel made thorwards peace was resulted an increase of terror and violence?

uthman7c · Mar 28, 2011

ido_ said:
I think that when Israel shows it is interestead in solving the dispute peacefully the Palestinians owe Israelies to stop using violence and terror, yes, I believe that 100%, do you disagree?

Israel accepted the peace plan offered by Bill Clinton in 2000 at Camp David that entailed forfeiture of Gaza by Israel, nearly total forefeiture of the West Bank, a jihadist capital in Jerusalem and a $30 BILLION foreign aid package for the jihadists.

Arafat rejected the offer and inflicted a 4 year jihadist intifada on Israel murdering 1000 Israelis and wounding 6,000 more, proportional to the number of American casualties in the Viet Nam War.

It helps to be informed

PA pushing Quartet to recognize 1967 borders

Mika-El

washunut

alexa

ido_

justabubba

long standing member

ido_

uthman7c