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Creating Terrorists, Why do we continue to do it?

well, yeah, nobody ever said that keeping the country impoverished while keeping huge numbers of Americans dependent upon your administration on a weekly basis wasn't a smart political strategy; we just point out that it was a devastating economic one.

If the people felt he kept them impoverished and that he devastated the economy, why do you suppose he was elected to 4 terms and is still considered one of the top 3 presidents today, ahead of Thomas Jefferson?
 
Catawba said:
If the people felt he kept them impoverished and that he devastated the economy, why do you suppose he was elected to 4 terms and is still considered one of the top 3 presidents today, ahead of Thomas Jefferson?

Because the myth surrounding FDR is much more popular than the reality.
 
justabubba said:
i do look forward to seeing you expose the myth

i'll wait

Anyone that knows a cursory knowledge of history during that time knows it. It's just like how there is a popular myth surrounding Lincoln that is more well known than the reality of the actual man and his policies/actions.
 
Anyone that knows a cursory knowledge of history during that time knows it. It's just like how there is a popular myth surrounding Lincoln that is more well known than the reality of the actual man and his policies/actions.

i grew up listening to people from a poor textile mill village singing his praises. they had endured substantial hardship in the depression but recognized that he (and Eleanor) were to a large degree responsible for an end to the harsh times. most were able to recite where they were when his funeral train passed by, much as i can recall where i was when JFK was assassinated, or John Lennon or during the 9/11 strike. if he were not a significant, revered figure to them, i doubt they would have spoken of him as they did

so, please, expose the myth of FDR for us ... share your insights
 
If the people felt he kept them impoverished and that he devastated the economy, why do you suppose he was elected to 4 terms and is still considered one of the top 3 presidents today, ahead of Thomas Jefferson?

:confused: did you not read the part about putting them on the dole?

FDR was a godawful president. you want me to "expose the myth" can do.
 
:confused: did you not read the part about putting them on the dole?

Oh, you mean he made the plight of the American people better, and they reelected him 3 times to show their appreciation.


Where does the myth part come into play there?
 
justabubba said:
i grew up listening to people from a poor textile mill village singing his praises. they had endured substantial hardship in the depression but recognized that he (and Eleanor) were to a large degree responsible for an end to the harsh times. most were able to recite where they were when his funeral train passed by, much as i can recall where i was when JFK was assassinated, or John Lennon or during the 9/11 strike. if he were not a significant, revered figure to them, i doubt they would have spoken of him as they did

so, please, expose the myth of FDR for us ... share your insights

There is your myth. :)
 
There is your myth. :)

it was not a mythical circumstance to my relatives. people who were starving because there was no work and no safety net. FDR provided both

but i do recognize when the facts are against you it is much easier spewing BS from your keyboard. spew on
 
Oh, you mean he made the plight of the American people better, and they reelected him 3 times to show their appreciation.

:lol: keeping people unemployed, poor, and hungry is not "improving their station"

Where does the myth part come into play there?

that crap that you apparently believe. that and the "got us out of the great depression" bit. that would be the myth.
 
it was not a mythical circumstance to my relatives. people who were starving because there was no work and no safety net. FDR provided both

nooooo.... people were starving because FDR instituted a national policy of destroying all the food!. :doh:
 
nooooo.... people were starving because FDR instituted a national policy of destroying all the food!. :doh:

do you just make **** up?
my folks were going hungry when herbert hoover was president
they finally got to the point they knew where their next meal would come only after FDR effected his policies, which gave them work and a means to afford a decent standard of living
 
do you just make **** up?
my folks were going hungry when herbert hoover was president
they finally got to the point they knew where their next meal would come only after FDR effected his policies, which gave them work and a means to afford a decent standard of living

So you blame Hoover for your parents hunger... huh. Maybe Obama's the cause of my ulcer and I can sue and get a cheap settlement. Since it's obviously not my fault it must therefore be Obama's.

Is that the basic logical gist here?
 
I need a break from writing my paper anyway :) this is going to be fun.


If you want to understand how dumb FDR's policies, were, you have to understand how dumb Hoovers' were. To understand how dumb Hoover was, you need to understand how Not Dumb Hardings were.

President Harding was handed Wilsons' mess; similar to how Obama got handed Bush's boondoggle. The GNP plunged by 24%, unemployment more than doubled. The recession was, from peak to trough, nearly as severe as the one that presaged the Great Depression a decde later. Hardings' Secretar of Commerce (Herbert Hoover) insisted that the Federal government should step in and provide relief. Instead, Harding drastically cut Federal spending and Federal tax rates, declaring his intention to "'strike the shackles from industry". Harding cut not until he balanced the budget, but until he had surpluses, which he used to pay off national debt. within a little over a year, unemployment had been cut almost in half, from about 11.7% to 6.7. The unemployment rate continued to fall under his tenure, until it bottomed out at 1.8% in 1926.

Coolidge was President at that point, having picked up in 1925, but having largely continued his predecessors' economic policies. It wasn't until Hoover won the Presidency in 1928 that he would get to try out his ideas about managing the economy on a national level.

And manage he attempted to do. In response to the recession, Hoover put in place the programs that would eventually grow into the New Deal (as multiple New Deal craftsmen later admitted). He created a temporary bureau to expand public works to provide employment, put in place a "stimulus" (though he forced the Railroad Industry to finance it) roughly equal to 1/3 of federal outlays in 1929, created the Reconstruction Finance Corporation (whose job it was to to supply faltering too-big-to-fail businesses uch as railroads and banks with emergency low-interest loans). By 1932 the RFC was also loaning money to states (something for us to look forward to, I suppose) to prop up unemployment benefits and public works projects. He also propped up wages. in 1921, businesses had been able to cover their losses by cutting wages. in 1929 they weren't allowed to do so, and the result was growing unemployment, from 3% in 1929, to 9% by the beginning of 1930. After that doozie, Hoover decided he needed to "protect American workers", particularly farmers, and thus we got the Hawley Smoot Tarrif. Prior to it's passage, the New York Times published a list of 1,028 economics who stated that the results of such a tarrif would be devastating. GM's European director, Graeme Howard sent Hoover a telegram that was impressively prescient: PASSAGE BILL WOULD SPELL ECONOMIC ISOLATION UNITED STATES AND MOST SEVERE DEPRESSION EVER EXPERIENCED. Hoover pushed it right on through. As if that wasn't enough, the Revenue Act of 1932 jacked up taxes; as it was becoming increasingly clear that Hoover didn't have the money to pay for his social programs.

Like another current President we could name, FDR campaigned against Hoovers' deficites (that he had built up attempting to "prime the pump" and so forth), only to put Hoovers policies on steroids. Interestingly, FDR decided that the real problem was that people had too much money and food, and so he decided to reduce the supplies of both. His American Agricultural Administration destroyed tons of crops and over six million pigs in an attempt to make food more difficult to get (i'm not making this up, that was the plan). This, mind you at a time when the Department of Agriculture states America was not producing enough food to maintain its population at the subsistence diet level. He also reduced the money supply by pushing deflation. Not that he went about this too intellectually rigorously. He would set gold rates as he ate eggs in bed, for example, based on what numbers "felt lucky". :) I'm going to say this clearly so that it's incredible stupidity stands out clear: FDR jacked up prices in the middle of a recession. The Great Economist Keynes came to meet Roosevelt, feeling upbeat about this President who was putting (however imperfectly) his ideas about public spending to work; only to leave shaking his head and complaining that the President was a complete economic illiterate.

FDR also expanded Hoovers policies of propping up wages (which is really just another price - the one you pay for labor). The Wagner Act was supposed to solve the unemployment problem by unionizing everyone under the sun. Apparently unknown to FDR was that Unions make their money by reducing employment so that resources devoted to labor are disproportionately divided among their members. Unemployment shot up. Roosevelt tried to hire those who had been put out of work by his own policies via massive public works projects, but the funds to pay them had to come from somewhere, and that somewhere was the private market. intended as a stopgap measure, they instead displaced and destroyed private-sector jobs, leaving those workers worse off than before and the government further in debt.

Not that public works spending was primarily intended to help the country. It was intended to help people, specific people. Specifically people in areas' where FDR's victory in 1932 had been thin. The South, which was solidly democratic, wasn't much of a threat, and so it got the leat amount of assistance from the WPA, despite being the poorest region in the nation. Critical instead were western states, which were toss-ups. Gavin Wright, John Wallis, Jim Couch, William Shughart and other researches went through district by district and found that as much as 80% of the differences in New Deal spending could be accounted for by taking note of political factors (Catawba, you asked). How did FDR get reelected? he picked the toss up states and he bought them off using federal money. WPA workers were told to "voluntarily" donate a portion of their salaries to the Presidents' reelection campaign and support local Democratic politicians if they wanted to keep their jobs. FDR and Hoover between them had destroyed any private-sector growth potential, so there was no where else for the workers to go, they were caught in the machine.

Roosevelt also engaged in blatant class warfare, threatning and even prosecuting bankers for their failure to have the decency to be impoverished if they weren't going to magically produce for him a growing economy. Anti-business measures such as the (unconstitutional) National Recovery Act created reams of bureacratic nightmares for business owners, and put millions more out of work. Erratic leaps in policy (the New Deal wasn't a single unified identifiable plan or even ideology, but more of a grab bag of "well-then-maybe-this-will-work" ideas) left capital guessing and unwilling to enter the market place (again, just like it's doing today).

First Hoover and then FDR took a Recession that should have been no deeper, longer, and not much more painful than the one we saw in 1921, and turned it into the Great Depression. As Henry Morgantheau (FDR's Treasury Secretary) put it ""We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. We have just as much unemployment as when we started. . . . And an enormous debt to boot!" Mind you he said this in 1939. Had he clued in about 6 years earlier, the country could have perhaps been saved alot of pain.
 
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yeah, i keep hitting that button when they give the "the server is having problems" bit, too.
 
:lol: keeping people unemployed, poor, and hungry is not "improving their station"

If that were the case, why would they reelect him 3 times?
 
If that were the case, why would they reelect him 3 times?

Why have the vast majority of black Americans voted Democrat for so long yet have gained nothing of significance for it?
 
Why have the vast majority of black Americans voted Democrat for so long yet have gained nothing of significance for it?

When you answer my question, I will answer yours.
 
When you answer my question, I will answer yours.

My question was rhetorical to illustrate a point.

The point is that if you are dependent on somebody to provide for you then you are hesitant and reluctant to bite the hand that feeds you if not adamant in your support of them no matter how degrading your position really is in receiving the rations of slavery. It is the fundamental underpinning of American liberalism.

Freedom is . . . not entitlement. An entitlement is what people on welfare get, and how free are they? It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights— the "right" to education, the "right" to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery— hay and a barn for human cattle.

P.J. O'Rourke​
 
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My question was rhetorical to illustrate a point.

The point is that if you are dependent on somebody to provide for you then you are hesitant and reluctant to bite the hand that feeds you if not adamant in your support of them no matter how degrading your position really is in receiving the rations of slavery. It is the fundamental underpinning of American liberalism.

Freedom is . . . not entitlement. An entitlement is what people on welfare get, and how free are they? It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights— the "right" to education, the "right" to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery— hay and a barn for human cattle.

P.J. O'Rourke​

Social Security and Medicare are paid for by the people, through taxes withheld, so they are not entitlements and helped create the middle class.

If you are opposed to welfare, than pay everyone that works full time a living wage.

Improving the lot of Americans is an admirable accomplishment, and the people rewarded FDR for it by electing him 3 times.

Even today, as I have referenced above, he is still considered one of the top 3 presidents, ahead of Thomas Jefferson.
 
Social Security and Medicare are paid for by the people, through taxes withheld, so they are not entitlements and helped create the middle class.
They are entitlements, by defintion.

I don't need the nanny state extracting money from my checks for my own retirement, as if I'm a moron who can't take care of myself or some little 4 year old kid that can't take care of myself.

If you are opposed to welfare, than pay everyone that works full time a living wage.
If you don't like welfare do what is necessary to get a better paying job instead of acting like a parasite leaching off society.

Improving the lot of Americans is an admirable accomplishment, and the people rewarded FDR for it by electing him 3 times.
Uh, welfare does not "improve the lot of Americans." It serves up the rations of slavery and fosters soul sapping dependence.

Using the power of the federal government to forcibly extract money from one class of people you think has too much and handing it out to another class of people you think more deserving is not "an admirable accomplishment." It's not your money so taking it and giving it out should hardly be seen as "admirable."

Even today, as I have referenced above, he is still considered one of the top 3 presidents, ahead of Thomas Jefferson.
And I bet you would also cite public opinion concerning people thinking Iraq was responsible for 9-11 in some way, too, huh?
 
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then offer us your cites

:shrug:

Amity Shlaes "The Forgotten Man"
Thomas Woods "Politically Incorrect Guide to American History"

those are the two books i happen to be using for a paper i'm working on right now, so i used them in the post above, but that particular policy is sort of what you call "accepted history", right along with the National Industrial Recovery Act and putting Secretary Mellon on trial. thus, it's all over the web:


Another major feature of FDR’s New Deal was the Agricultural Adjustment Act, which sought to keep agricultural prices up through the mass destruction of crops and livestock. It worked in keeping prices up, but at a time when Americans were starving, this was perhaps not the most sensible or humane approach.

Daily Kos: The essential lesson of the Great Depression was that we destroyed food to boost market prices while people were starving.

There is mounting evidence developed by dozens of economists, at Princeton, Brown, Columbia, Stanford, the University of Chicago, University of Virginia, University of California (Berkeley) and other universities, that double-digit unemployment was prolonged by FDR's own New Deal policies.

How can that be? Consider just a few of FDR's policies. The New Deal tripled federal taxes between 1933 and 1940 -- excise taxes, personal income taxes, inheritance taxes, corporate income taxes, dividend taxes, excess profits taxes all went up, and FDR introduced an undistributed profits tax. A number of New Deal laws, including some 700 industrial cartel codes, made it more expensive for employers to hire people, and this discouraged hiring.

Frequent changes in the tax laws plus FDR's anti-business rhetoric ("economic royalists") discouraged people from making investments essential for growth and jobs. New Deal securities laws made it harder for employers to raise capital. FDR issued antitrust lawsuits against some 150 employers and companies, making it harder for them to focus on business. FDR signed a law ordering the break-up of America's strongest banks, with the lowest failure rates. New Deal farm policies destroyed food -- 10 million acres of crops and 6 million farm animals -- thereby wiping out farm jobs and forcing food prices above market levels for 100 million American consumers.



sorry man, but Roosevelt had them destroy food in the middle of a recession at a time when Americans were starving. he then had the US government pay farmers not to produce food, so that the supply would be kept artificially low and the prices artificially high. where did you think we got agricultural subsidies from?
 
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