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Article: What did the Kurds ever do for the US?

Rogue Valley said:
Trump, and you, are commingling the Kurdish PKK within Turkey (fighting for a secession of some far eastern districts) and the Syrian Kurds of Rojava (northern Syria).

The bottom line is Trump sold out the allied Syrian forces that have been fighting ISIS on our behalf for the past 5 years and suffering 11,000 dead in battle.
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There's no evidence that Trump has received anything in exchange for removing American forces. If you want to claim Trump was unwise or misguided, that's your prerogative, but "sold out" sounds like just another visit to that dry well we call the "Russian collusion BS."

One point I made in my previous post is that Trump has been sedulously careful about not calling the Kurds terrorists. His harshest claim against them to my knowledge was to say that they weren't "angels," which is the sort of self-evident put-down that means nearly nothing. He also said that the PKK was worse than ISIS, which a lot of people would dispute, but again, not really a blanket condemnation of the Kurds. If you're aware of such a condemnation, by all means trot it out.

The American news media seem blithely uninterested in researching any truth-value to Erdogan's claim to be fighting terrorists. Nevertheless, it seems quite possible to me that the PKK, whether or not they're working hand in glove with the official Kurdish leaders, may have been hiding behind the skirts of the American military while committing terrorist acts. IF that's true, and Erdogan convinced Trump that he meant to stop the PKK even if it transgressing against the U.S., that would in my view be a pretty good reason for Trump to decide that the U.S. didn't have a dog in this fight.
 
Ouroboros said:
There's no evidence that Trump has received anything in exchange for removing American forces. If you want to claim Trump was unwise or misguided, that's your prerogative, but "sold out" sounds like just another visit to that dry well we call the "Russian collusion BS."

One point I made in my previous post is that Trump has been sedulously careful about not calling the Kurds terrorists. His harshest claim against them to my knowledge was to say that they weren't "angels," which is the sort of self-evident put-down that means nearly nothing. He also said that the PKK was worse than ISIS, which a lot of people would dispute, but again, not really a blanket condemnation of the Kurds. If you're aware of such a condemnation, by all means trot it out.

The American news media seem blithely uninterested in researching any truth-value to Erdogan's claim to be fighting terrorists. Nevertheless, it seems quite possible to me that the PKK, whether or not they're working hand in glove with the official Kurdish leaders, may have been hiding behind the skirts of the American military while committing terrorist acts. IF that's true, and Erdogan convinced Trump that he meant to stop the PKK even if it transgressing against the U.S., that would in my view be a pretty good reason for Trump to decide that the U.S. didn't have a dog in this fight.
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Trump "sold out" the Kurds so he can claim in 2020 that he brought the troops home.
 
Ouroboros said:
There's no evidence that Trump has received anything in exchange for removing American forces. If you want to claim Trump was unwise or misguided, that's your prerogative, but "sold out" sounds like just another visit to that dry well we call the "Russian collusion BS."
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Visit the Military forum. Quit being so lazy.
 
Jack Hays said:
Trump "sold out" the Kurds so he can claim in 2020 that he brought the troops home.
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Except he didn't. Some US troops in Syria are chugging their way to western Iraq. (Iraq says they are not welcome and can't stay)

Other US troops are guarding Syrian oil. (for somebody, probably for Erdogan)

Trump also sent 3,000 US troops to the Kingdom. (They best beware of bone saws)

As always, Trump is lying. No US troops are coming home.

Defense chief says US troops leaving Syria will go to western Iraq

Some U.S. Troops May Remain In Northeast Syria To Protect Oil Fields

Trump admin sending thousands more U.S. troops to Saudi Arabia

Trump isn’t ‘bringing our soldiers back home’ from Syria
 
Rogue Valley said:
Except he didn't. Some US troops in Syria are chugging their way to western Iraq. (Iraq says they are not welcome and can't stay)

Other US troops are guarding Syrian oil. (for somebody, probably for Erdogan)

Trump also sent 3,000 US troops to the Kingdom. (They best beware of bone saws)

As always, Trump is lying. No US troops are coming home.

Defense chief says US troops leaving Syria will go to western Iraq

Some U.S. Troops May Remain In Northeast Syria To Protect Oil Fields

Trump admin sending thousands more U.S. troops to Saudi Arabia

Trump isn’t ‘bringing our soldiers back home’ from Syria
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You will find no post of mine claiming Trump is truthful.
 
Jack Hays said:
Trump "sold out" the Kurds so he can claim in 2020 that he brought the troops home.
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Do you have any particular reasons to disbelieve Erdogan when he accuses the Kurds of terrorist activities?
 
Jack Hays said:
I know he would make the accusation regardless of whether it's true, because it's useful.
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My point, or one of them, is that if you (or anyone) asserts that a politician is using the "wag the dog" technique to earn points with voters, you ought to be sure first off that he isn't responding to a real threat.

Could Erdogan have manufactured stuff about Kurdish terrorist activities in order to get Trump on his side? It's possible, but Europe in general seems to concur that the PKK does a lotta crap, so Erdogan probably didn't have to manufacture too much.

Trump, rightly or wrongly, defines himself as a deal-maker. The current deal may well go pear-shaped, or it may've saved us from a more serious conflict. We shall see.
 
Jack Hays said:
I know he would make the accusation regardless of whether it's true, because it's useful.
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My point, or one of them, is that if you (or anyone) asserts that a politician is using the "wag the dog" technique to earn points with voters, you ought to be sure first off that he isn't responding to a real threat.

Could Erdogan have manufactured stuff about Kurdish terrorist activities in order to get Trump on his side? It's possible, but Europe in general seems to concur that the PKK does a lotta crap, so Erdogan probably didn't have to manufacture too much.

Trump, rightly or wrongly, defines himself as a deal-maker. The current deal may well go pear-shaped, or it may've saved us from a more serious conflict. We shall see.
 
Jack Hays said:
I know he would make the accusation regardless of whether it's true, because it's useful.
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Erdogan has a bad habit (due to bigotry) of commingling the PKK organization within Turkey and the YPG/YPJ militia's of Syria's Rojava region.

It doesn't much matter to Erdo if they are Turkish, Syrian, or Iraqi Kurds because he hates them all.

He do an Armenia on the Kurds if he thought he could get away with it.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Then your neurons must be in a tizzy.
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Well, you topped one incoherence with another. Not exactly a stunning accomplishment, but whatever convinces you that you're clever.
 
Ouroboros said:
My point, or one of them, is that if you (or anyone) asserts that a politician is using the "wag the dog" technique to earn points with voters, you ought to be sure first off that he isn't responding to a real threat.

Could Erdogan have manufactured stuff about Kurdish terrorist activities in order to get Trump on his side? It's possible, but Europe in general seems to concur that the PKK does a lotta crap, so Erdogan probably didn't have to manufacture too much.

Trump, rightly or wrongly, defines himself as a deal-maker. The current deal may well go pear-shaped, or it may've saved us from a more serious conflict. We shall see.
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Erdogan is not trying to "wag the dog." He is continuing a decades-long oppression of the Kurds.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Erdogan has a bad habit (due to bigotry) of commingling the PKK organization within Turkey and the YPG/YPJ militia's of Syria's Rojava region.

It doesn't much matter to Erdo if they are Turkish, Syrian, or Iraqi Kurds because he hates them all.

He do an Armenia on the Kurds if he thought he could get away with it.
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In this he seems almost indistinguishable from quite a few Middle Eastern "strong men."

But let's say, for sake of argument, that he knew he couldn't get away with genocide these days, yet he still wanted to send all the Syrians back to Syria and reduce the nuisance-value of the Kurds. What better way to do so then to play upon Trump's disinclination to get involved in foreign struggles, and to force the Kurds to make a "separate peace."
 
Jack Hays said:
Erdogan is not trying to "wag the dog." He is continuing a decades-long oppression of the Kurds.
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Trump's the one who was accused of creating a faux conflict to impress voters, which I interpret as the "wag the dog" syndrome.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
  1. In 1972, partly armed by Washington and urged on by the then Shah of Iran, Iraqi Kurds defied the government in Baghdad
  2. US President George HW Bush called on the Kurds in Iraq to rise up against Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq.
  3. the US sought to find elements on the ground who could mount a serious challenge to the fighters of IS. Washington's decision to support the Kurds with training and equipment reaped dividends. They proved both reliable and capable and the dismantling of the IS caliphate in Syria owes much to their efforts.

This is the third betrayal of the Kurds by the US, is this one the most serious though? How many more times would they return to the US cause?
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A more comprehensive list of US betrayals of the Kurds

‘No Friend But the Mountains’: A History of US Betrayal of the Kurds - CounterPunch.org
 
Jack Hays said:
I know of no accusation that Trump created a faux conflict.
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Post #27 may seem familiar to you if you check it out:

Trump "sold out" the Kurds so he can claim in 2020 that he brought the troops home.
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This is you, claiming that his only reason for withdrawing troops was to make himself look good.

Now, if as you claim this was his only reason for the withdrawal, that would mean that Trump's detractors would be correct in stating that the Turks would've held off as long as American soldiers remained stationed in the disputed area. All these Monday-morning quarterbacks seem to forget pretty easily how 18 servicemen died at Mogadishu, in one of the many unofficial "wars" we've been involved in.

To be sure, "wagging the dog" usually means taking precipitate action rather than not taking precipitate action. But the same principle should apply.
 
Ouroboros said:
Post #27 may seem familiar to you if you check it out:



This is you, claiming that his only reason for withdrawing troops was to make himself look good.

Now, if as you claim this was his only reason for the withdrawal, that would mean that Trump's detractors would be correct in stating that the Turks would've held off as long as American soldiers remained stationed in the disputed area. All these Monday-morning quarterbacks seem to forget pretty easily how 18 servicemen died at Mogadishu, in one of the many unofficial "wars" we've been involved in.

To be sure, "wagging the dog" usually means taking precipitate action rather than not taking precipitate action. But the same principle should apply.
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Nice dodge, but I'm not fooled.
I've been to Somalia, as well as Iraq, Afghanistan et al. I need no lectures from you. No one forgets the soldiers who died, but I guarantee you our troops in Syria would rather have stayed and run the risk rather than become an excuse for dishonorable US conduct.
Trump took precipitate action to betray an ally and dishonor our country.
 
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PoS said:
Well since you like the Kurds so much, why doesnt the UK send a few regiments over there?
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Stunning riposte as always...
 
Jack Hays said:
Nice dodge, but I'm not fooled.
I've been to Somalia, as well as Iraq, Afghanistan et al. I need no lectures from you. No one forgets the soldiers who died, but I guarantee you our troops in Syria would rather have stayed and run the risk rather than become an excuse for dishonorable US conduct.
Trump took precipitate action to betray an ally and dishonor our country.
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I'm always amazed that so many Americans have no sense of honor whatsoever. Patriotism is also in short supply.

Not sure if that is bad parenting, bad schools, or a combination of the two.
 
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