Erdogan says Turkey to launch 'air and ground' operation in Syria

Erdogan says Turkey to launch 'air and ground' operation in Syria

Turkish president again threatens military operation against SDF, viewed as 'terrorists' by Ankara.

10/5/19
President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said Turkey will carry out an "air and ground military operation" east of the Euphrates River, prompting US-backed Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) to warn of an "all-out war" to defend the region they control. It was Erdogan's most direct indication of a unilateral incursion into Syria since Ankara and Washington decided to establish a "safe zone" there. The operation, which aims to clear groups Turkey considers "terrorists" from the border region, could start as soon as Saturday or Sunday, Erdogan said while speaking at the opening of his AK Party's annual camp on Saturday. "We will conduct this [operation] on the ground and in the air," Erdogan said, adding it would be in the east of the Euphrates River. "We have made our preparations, we have completed our operation plans, given the necessary instructions," he said.

The NATO allies agreed to establish the zone on the Syrian border on August 7. Despite beginning joint patrols along the border in September, the two have been at odds over several details of the plan. Ankara and Washington have disagreed over how far the area should extend, who should control it and what groups should be cleared from the area. Turkey has said the zone should stretch 30 kilometres (19 miles) into Syria and be cleared of members of the People's Protection Units (YPG), a Kurdish militia operating in Syria that Turkey considers a "terrorist organisation". The US supports the SDF, which is led by the YPG and was key in defeating the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL or ISIS) fighters in Syria. Turkey, which currently hosts 3.6 million Syrian refugees, also says it wants to settle up to two million refugees in the "safe zone".

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Erdogan and his AK Party are staunch nationalists and consider all Kurds as an enemy of Turkey.

The YPG/YPJ Syrian Kurds have been fighting with US forces on the ground against ISIS since January, 2015 and suffered thousands of dead and wounded in this cause.

What Erdogan is going to do here is an ethnic cleansing of the Syrian Kurdish Homeland (Rojava) in northern Syria. Expel all the Kurds within a 30 km zone into Syria and replace them with Sunni Syrians.

It seems Erdogan has decided to strike now while Trump and Pompeo are distracted with Ukraine and impeachment. Former SecDef Mattis would never stand for such a betrayal.

Rogue Valley said:

Erdogan says Turkey to launch 'air and ground' operation in Syria

Turkish president again threatens military operation against SDF, viewed as 'terrorists' by Ankara.

Erdogan and his AK Party are staunch nationalists and consider all Kurds as an enemy of Turkey.

The YPG/YPJ Syrian Kurds have been fighting with US forces on the ground against ISIS since January, 2015 and suffered thousands of dead and wounded in this cause.

What Erdogan is going to do here is an ethnic cleansing of the Syrian Kurdish Homeland (Rojava) in northern Syria. Expel all the Kurds within a 30 km zone into Syria and replace them with Sunni Syrians.

It seems Erdogan has decided to strike now while Trump and Pompeo are distracted with Ukraine and impeachment. Former SecDef Mattis would never stand for such a betrayal.

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He is going to do an ethnic cleansing because he is scared of the kurds, they actually know how to fight, and when taking afrin it took the turkish army much longer than expected despite having a bigger army, way more arms, air support, armor support etc. He fears any kurdish state in syria will cause turkish kurds to revolt and break away, a fear not exclusive to him, assad opposes full autonomy to the kurds as does iran, however iran syria iraq etc have been far more cautious in keeping kurdish territory from leaving, while erdogan has been more in line with a genocidal maniac who instead wishing to keep a kingdom united and peaceful wishes to eradicate those not inline with the turkish state.


Also his party has talked about taking the greek isles and bulgaria, as both were former ottoman territory, which is why bulgaria has been creeping back into russia's orbit, they fear their own neighbor and fellow nato member will try and claim part of bulgaria as it's own and that nato will allow it for the sake of keeping turkey in the alliance.

The US Government just announced (late Sunday Oct. 6th EDT) it will be pulling troops out of Northern Syria in advance of an imminent Turkish military operation. It looks like the balloon is going up.

American Troops to Withdraw From Northern Syria Ahead of Turkish Incursion - WSJ

Hopefully someone or some state can talk some sense into President Erdogan at this last minute or this operation could turn into a bloody massacre. The Kurds might even look to Iran for help if the US Government cuts and runs as I expect it will with Mr. Trump at the helm.

Cheers?
Evilroddy.

Evilroddy said:

The US Government just announced (late Sunday Oct. 6th EDT) it will be pulling troops out of Northern Syria in advance of an imminent Turkish military operation. It looks like the balloon is going up.

American Troops to Withdraw From Northern Syria Ahead of Turkish Incursion - WSJ

Hopefully someone or some state can talk some sense into President Erdogan at this last minute or this operation could turn into a bloody massacre. The Kurds might even look to Iran for help if the US Government cuts and runs as I expect it will with Mr. Trump at the helm.

Cheers?
Evilroddy.

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Indeed.....

U.S. Starts Troop Pullout From Turkey's Border In Northeastern Syria

Trump is backstabbing our ally in Syria in order to please his dictator friend Erdogan. It's a sad day for the US military.

Rogue Valley said:

Indeed.....

U.S. Starts Troop Pullout From Turkey's Border In Northeastern Syria

Trump is backstabbing our ally in Syria in order to please his dictator friend Erdogan. It's a sad day for the US military.

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Stand by for another dishonorable betrayal of the Kurds.

Evilroddy said:

The US Government just announced (late Sunday Oct. 6th EDT) it will be pulling troops out of Northern Syria in advance of an imminent Turkish military operation. It looks like the balloon is going up.

American Troops to Withdraw From Northern Syria Ahead of Turkish Incursion - WSJ

Hopefully someone or some state can talk some sense into President Erdogan at this last minute or this operation could turn into a bloody massacre. The Kurds might even look to Iran for help if the US Government cuts and runs as I expect it will with Mr. Trump at the helm.

Cheers?
Evilroddy.

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I wonder, is JTF 2 still there training the Kurds? Early this year there were reports that they had joined in on operations against ISIS.

Grand Mal said:

I wonder, is JTF 2 still there training the Kurds? Early this year there were reports that they had joined in on operations against ISIS.

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Grand Mal:

Good question but I don't know the answer, even in the vaguest terms. I hope the answer is no and if there are Canadian Special Forces operating in Syria independent of the joint US-Can command structure I hope NDHQ and the cabinet has the good sense to pull them out of Syria immediately. They should continue training and strengthening the Kurds operating in Iraq and help the Kurds make safe havens for Kurds displaced by the expected Turkish incursion/invasion in Iraq. Then, when the Kurds are secure they can launch a counter-attack against the Turks by infiltration and guerrilla warfare with possible allied air and artillery support.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Evilroddy said:

The US Government just announced (late Sunday Oct. 6th EDT) it will be pulling troops out of Northern Syria in advance of an imminent Turkish military operation. It looks like the balloon is going up.

American Troops to Withdraw From Northern Syria Ahead of Turkish Incursion - WSJ

Hopefully someone or some state can talk some sense into President Erdogan at this last minute or this operation could turn into a bloody massacre. The Kurds might even look to Iran for help if the US Government cuts and runs as I expect it will with Mr. Trump at the helm.

Cheers?
Evilroddy.

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So far from what I read the russian and syrian forces are progressing fast towards the borders, not sure if they are going to try and take the land after us forces leave or just rush to the border of jurdish territy to counter turkish intervention, either way it does not look like russia or syria plan to just let them do what they want. I also wonder if russia will intervene there, russia has already forced turkish jets away from syrian airspace and has also done the same multiple times recently with israeili jets, and given how friendly russia has been with israel and how diplomatic they have been with turkey, putin must have his patience worn thin at this point.

We can complicate matters more, israel being scared out of syrian airspace by threat of su-35 jets loaded and ready to kill, and syria fully activating the s-300 defense system, so not only could this situation be a mess for the kurds, israel may let turkey be the fat kid to scope out syrian defenses, and isis or hts may try to exploit the chaos as well to reclaim territory with the syrian govt trying to deal with a multi front war.

Evilroddy said:

The US Government just announced (late Sunday Oct. 6th EDT) it will be pulling troops out of Northern Syria in advance of an imminent Turkish military operation. It looks like the balloon is going up.

American Troops to Withdraw From Northern Syria Ahead of Turkish Incursion - WSJ

Hopefully someone or some state can talk some sense into President Erdogan at this last minute or this operation could turn into a bloody massacre. The Kurds might even look to Iran for help if the US Government cuts and runs as I expect it will with Mr. Trump at the helm.

Cheers?
Evilroddy.

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Sorry how does anything you say involve talking “sense” to him. From Erdogan’s perspective and position, all of those things are a feature, not a bug.

Islamist dictators generally don’t care about whether attacks against other peoples will involve massacres.

As for Iran, I’m sure they will but also pretty sure Erdogan doesn’t care.


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Evilroddy said:

Grand Mal:

Good question but I don't know the answer, even in the vaguest terms. I hope the answer is no and if there are Canadian Special Forces operating in Syria independent of the joint US-Can command structure I hope NDHQ and the cabinet has the good sense to pull them out of Syria immediately. They should continue training and strengthening the Kurds operating in Iraq and help the Kurds make safe havens for Kurds displaced by the expected Turkish incursion/invasion in Iraq. Then, when the Kurds are secure they can launch a counter-attack against the Turks by infiltration and guerrilla warfare with possible allied air and artillery support.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

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Allied air support? Against Turkey?

That’s not the way NATO works.


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The Kurds say the Turks have already begun air raids. This is not confirmed. The US has so far only pulled back ~150 troops.

So far, it looks like Trump did not confer with anyone on his pullback order - Congress, State, the Pentagon, nor US Central Command Combatant Commander Gen. Joseph Votel.

Rogue Valley said:

The Kurds say the Turks have already begun air raids. This is not confirmed. The US has so far only pulled back ~150 troops.

So far, it looks like Trump did not confer with anyone on his pullback order - Congress, State, the Pentagon, or US Central Command Combatant Commander Gen. Joseph Votel.

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Does anyone support this?


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CJ 2.0 said:

Does anyone support this?

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No one in Congress besides Sen. Rand Paul. No one in the Pentagon.

You can't trust the State Department of Pompeo to be upfront about anything.

Rogue Valley said:

No one in Congress besides Sen. Rand Paul. No one in the Pentagon.

You can't trust the State Department of Pompeo to be upfront about anything.

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And what of Americans generally?

This seems like something that has unified the political spectrum against Trump. Not sure anything has done that before.

How could this possibly be a good idea?

CJ 2.0 said:

And what of Americans generally?

This seems like something that has unified the political spectrum against Trump. Not sure anything has done that before.

How could this possibly be a good idea?

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No one that I associate with supports betrayal. No one in the military that I know.

The slaughter falls squarely on Donald Trump and Recep Tayyip Edogan.

CJ 2.0 said:

And what of Americans generally?

This seems like something that has unified the political spectrum against Trump. Not sure anything has done that before.

How could this possibly be a good idea?

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CJ 2.0:

Honestly I don't think most Americans really care about the Kurds of Syria much. It's just too abstract and too far away to be an issue for them. Betrayal by US policy makers of allies is far too common in American diplomatic history. The Marsh Arabs of Iraq, the Mujahidin of Afganistan and the Montagnards of Vietnam come quickly to mind from the last half century.

Yes, it and the Ukraine Investigation situation have galvanised the ire of the political class in America but that's not Mr. Trump's power base, so it really does not matter as long as he keeps the Republican-controlled Senate on board. Sure the Republican senators are mad at Trump's craven behaviour with regards to the would-be-pasha of Turkey, but if they stop supporting them then they trash their best chance of holding onto power between now and 2021. So what are they going to do, considering the Republicans have put so many of their political eggs in Mr. Trump's basket?

It's not a good idea, but it may be seen by war-weary American voters and idol worshipping Trump supporters as the least of several evils. The deaths of thousands or tens of thousands of Kurds really means very little to most Americans. Sort of like Turkomen or Rohingya don't really matter.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Evilroddy said:

The deaths of thousands or tens of thousands of Kurds really means very little to most Americans. Sort of like Turkomen or Rohingya don't really matter.

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I have to take issue with this. The problem is not that Americans are cold-hearted, but they are poorly informed.

The US media will attribute the rows of bodies to Erdogan and his Turkish military, and probably not even mention (or explain) Donald Trumps complicity.

Networks don't want to be accused of bias in the run-up to the 2020 election.

How many American troops left Syria? How many American troops there are in Syria?

Jack Hays said:

Stand by for another dishonorable betrayal of the Kurds.

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Indeed. It's, now ok for Turkey to bomb our main US/UK allies (The Kurds) in the ME fighting ISIS because Trump says its ok?

Pity on you Trump.... Beyond pathetic (funnily enough it helps Putin and Assad!!)

'Heavy Clashes' Reported On Second Day Of Turkey's Syria Offensive


Smoke billows from targets inside Syria during bombardment by Turkish forces on October 9.

10/10/19
Turkish ground forces have pressed their advance on the second day of their offensive against Kurdish-led forces controlling Syrian territory along the border with Turkey. President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on October 10 rejected international criticism of the military operation east of the Euphrates River, reiterating that the offensive was aimed at "eliminating terror" along Turkey's borders. Erdogan also said that Turkish armed forces "neutralized" a total of 109 "terrorists" so far, referring to Kurdish militias. Turkey-allied Syrian opposition fighters have "cleared " the border villages of Yabisa and Tel Fander, Turkish state media reported. And the Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said Turkish commandos entered the village of Beir Asheq. Turkish armed forces earlier said they had struck 181 targets with air strikes and howitzers since the start of the operation.

Meanwhile, the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) reported "heavy clashes" in border villages. The SDF said they held off an incursion attempt near the border town of Ras al-Ain and repulsed a ground assault on Tal Abyad. The Syrian Kurdish-led authorities also accused Turkey of shelling a prison in Qamishli holding Islamic State (IS) militants, calling it "a clear attempt" to help them escape.

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Operation Kurd Genocide has begun.

CJ 2.0 said:

And what of Americans generally?

This seems like something that has unified the political spectrum against Trump. Not sure anything has done that before.

How could this possibly be a good idea?

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All this suggests is that anyone who ever allies with the US cannot trust the US as an ally.

Erdogan hopes to shut the EU up by threatening to flood Europe's southern borders with 3.5 million refugees.

Jack Hays said:

Stand by for another dishonorable betrayal of the Kurds.

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Truly dishonourable, the worst case I've ever seen.

Evilroddy said:

Grand Mal:

Good question but I don't know the answer, even in the vaguest terms. I hope the answer is no and if there are Canadian Special Forces operating in Syria independent of the joint US-Can command structure I hope NDHQ and the cabinet has the good sense to pull them out of Syria immediately. They should continue training and strengthening the Kurds operating in Iraq and help the Kurds make safe havens for Kurds displaced by the expected Turkish incursion/invasion in Iraq. Then, when the Kurds are secure they can launch a counter-attack against the Turks by infiltration and guerrilla warfare with possible allied air and artillery support.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

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Hmm... Is Canada planning on aiding an attack on their NATO ally Turkey?

ttwtt78640 said:

Hmm... Is Canada planning on aiding an attack on their NATO ally Turkey?

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ttwtt78640:

I cannot speak for Canada, what I posted was my own thoughts on the matter. Turkey has already violated Articles 1, 2, and 4 of the NATO Treaty so the North Atlantic Council should give Turkey an ultimatum. Pull back to the three kilometre deep security zone or you're out of NATO. Once out of NATO your question is moot. However Turkey could not successfully invoke the Article 5 (collective defence) clause due to the fact that its forces are operating outside of Turkey and by Article 6 such forces could be considered fair game by other NATO member states wanting to use force even if Turkey remained in the NATO alliance. So, with the proviso that there are steps before initiating hostilities, yes I would support the use of Canadian air power (such as it is) and artillery support plus special forces support on behalf of the Rojava Kurds if they formally requested aid in the UN through a third-party state and the UN approved the operation.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Infinite Chaos said:

All this suggests is that anyone who ever allies with the US cannot trust the US as an ally.

Erdogan hopes to shut the EU up by threatening to flood Europe's southern borders with 3.5 million refugees.



Truly dishonourable, the worst case I've ever seen.

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I agree with all of this. It exposes the US as an empty ally whose defence commitments do not mean anything, which will have a profound impact on allies in the ME (particularly on Israel, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States), empower enemies in Iran and elsewhere (building on the non-response to the Iranian attacks against the Saudi oilfields), and completely ruin American containment and protection strategy in Asia (how would you feel if you were Japan, South Korea, the Philippines, or any other country in dispute with China). China and the Russians (who do stand up for their clients, as appalling as they are) are the big winners in all this, as is the Islamist dictator in Turkey. No one whose interests we should be interested in benefits from this decision.

Folks like to pretend the US is an imperialist empire and that empire is bad. The US has invested decades of blood and treasure on stability, which has allowed freedom and prosperity to thrive around the world. This blatant abandonment of a key ally who stood up to help the Americans when few else did to any material extent throws that entire project into shambles.

As for the Europeans, they have been gutless for a long time. The Turks have taken their measure and have absolutely no concern for them. Maybe the Europeans will have a few carefully chosen words for the Turks, but can then be expected to turn their attention back to their obsession in demonizing Israel. Europeans like an adversary that they can preen moral superiority to while being comfortable that their preening is consequence free because the party they are preening against is actually their moral and democratic equal (same thing with their anti-American inclinations). It's sort of their thing.

Evilroddy said:

ttwtt78640:

I cannot speak for Canada, what I posted was my own thoughts on the matter. Turkey has already violated Articles 1, 2, and 4 of the NATO Treaty so the North Atlantic Council should give Turkey an ultimatum. Pull back to the three kilometre deep security zone or you're out of NATO. Once out of NATO your question is moot. However Turkey could not successfully invoke the Article 5 (collective defence) clause due to the fact that its forces are operating outside of Turkey and by Article 6 such forces could be considered fair game by other NATO member states wanting to use force even if Turkey remained in the NATO alliance. So, with the proviso that there are steps before initiating hostilities, yes I would support the use of Canadian air power (such as it is) and artillery support plus special forces support on behalf of the Rojava Kurds if they formally requested aid in the UN through a third-party state and the UN approved the operation.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

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Canada barely has an army and the Turks are effectively a ruthless, conscious free, old school third-world-style opponent. Canada can barely project power into the arctic, there is no chance that we could do anything to help the Kurds.

Really the only ones that can actually help them are the Europeans (who won't, that is 100% certain) or the Israelis (who want to but don't have the international support or strategic position to explicitly get involved).

What we need is an Iran-Contra style scandal where various parts of the US military sell arms to Israel or another allied country (maybe the Greeks, who have their own history with expansionist Turkey) so that they can be smuggled in to the Kurds. Not sure how else this doesn't end very, very badly, while needless to say that would be a very bad thing for US democratic norms which could have much larger implications in light of the polarization going on in the US.