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Up To 1500 Children Associated with ISIL Held in Iraq and KRG, Some Tortured.

Evilroddy

Evilroddy

Pragmatic, pugilistic, prancing, porcine politico.
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Human Rights Watch has released a report finding that Iraq and authorities in the Kurdish Regional Government (KRG) are alleged to be forcibly detaining about 1500 children for association with ISIL and that torture is being allegedly used on some of them to extract confessions.

Abuses against Children Suspected of ISIS Affiliation in Iraq | HRW

While some of the children may have been minors under arms in the service of ISIL, the vast majority are being charged with simply being associated with the organisation. The alleged use of torture to extract confessions of these children calls into question the legitimacy of this process and the validity of the results of the prosecutorial process.

This is not cool and people of the world must put great pressure on Iraq and the KRG to stop and reverse this miscarriage of justice. I say the people of the world because the governments of many states seem quite willing to let this and other legal abuses by Iraq and the KRG go on unopposed. Iraq and the KRG are busy hanging ISIL captives including women brides of ISIL fighters after giving them pro-forma mock trials with large batches of defendants tried and condemned to death in minutes.

Cheers?
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
Human Rights Watch has released a report finding that Iraq and authorities in the Kurdish Regional Government (KRG) are alleged to be forcibly detaining about 1500 children for association with ISIL and that torture is being allegedly used on some of them to extract confessions.

Abuses against Children Suspected of ISIS Affiliation in Iraq | HRW

While some of the children may have been minors under arms in the service of ISIL, the vast majority are being charged with simply being associated with the organisation. The alleged use of torture to extract confessions of these children calls into question the legitimacy of this process and the validity of the results of the prosecutorial process.

This is not cool and people of the world must put great pressure on Iraq and the KRG to stop and reverse this miscarriage of justice. I say the people of the world because the governments of many states seem quite willing to let this and other legal abuses by Iraq and the KRG go on unopposed. Iraq and the KRG are busy hanging ISIL captives including women brides of ISIL fighters after giving them pro-forma mock trials with large batches of defendants tried and condemned to death in minutes.

Cheers?
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

Are they copying the US techniques practiced at Abu Grabass, Black Sites, Guantanamo, ad infinitum? GWBush says "torture" is legal. Trump likes torture. Gina "torture babe" Haspel practiced torture and it propelled her into the head of the CIA, ergo it is still approved by the US gubmint. Could these fine, upstanding citizens of the USA be wrong? I suspect we lead by example. Didn't the ISIS leader Baghdadi matriculate at Abu Grabass? Could pots be calling kettles black?
/
 
DaveFagan said:
Are they copying the US techniques practiced at Abu Grabass, Black Sites, Guantanamo, ad infinitum? GWBush says "torture" is legal. Trump likes torture. Gina "torture babe" Haspel practiced torture and it propelled her into the head of the CIA, ergo it is still approved by the US gubmint. Could these fine, upstanding citizens of the USA be wrong? I suspect we lead by example. Didn't the ISIS leader Baghdadi matriculate at Abu Grabass? Could pots be calling kettles black?
/
Click to expand...

Dave Fagan:

I hate to be a grammar-Nazi or a thought-cop but it's Abu Ghraib. To call it Abu Grabass does a disservice to those who were tortured or abused there.

Yes. The US and many governments including my own are ignoring what's going on, which is why grass-roots condemnation is needed to compel our own governments and the governments of Iraq and the KRG to stop the abuses. They are just making a tragic recent history worse and are setting the world up for the next bloody cycle of Islamist vs Western violence.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
Dave Fagan:

I hate to be a grammar-Nazi or a thought-cop but it's Abu Ghraib. To call it Abu Grabass does a disservice to those who were tortured or abused there.

Yes. The US and many governments including my own are ignoring what's going on, which is why grass-roots condemnation is needed to compel our own governments and the governments of Iraq and the KRG to stop the abuses. They are just making a tragic recent history worse and are setting the world up for the next bloody cycle of Islamist vs Western violence.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

Perhaps, but Abu Ghraib implies a conventional prison, and/or/but Abu Grabass implies reality. Creates an instant association by imagery.
/
 
Evilroddy said:
Human Rights Watch has released a report finding that Iraq and authorities in the Kurdish Regional Government (KRG) are alleged to be forcibly detaining about 1500 children for association with ISIL and that torture is being allegedly used on some of them to extract confessions.

Abuses against Children Suspected of ISIS Affiliation in Iraq | HRW

While some of the children may have been minors under arms in the service of ISIL, the vast majority are being charged with simply being associated with the organisation. The alleged use of torture to extract confessions of these children calls into question the legitimacy of this process and the validity of the results of the prosecutorial process.

This is not cool and people of the world must put great pressure on Iraq and the KRG to stop and reverse this miscarriage of justice. I say the people of the world because the governments of many states seem quite willing to let this and other legal abuses by Iraq and the KRG go on unopposed. Iraq and the KRG are busy hanging ISIL captives including women brides of ISIL fighters after giving them pro-forma mock trials with large batches of defendants tried and condemned to death in minutes.

Cheers?
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

Sounds like they are getting far more of a fair deal than they gave their victims.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Sounds like they are getting far more of a fair deal than they gave their victims.
Click to expand...

Tigerace117:

You may have a point for the adult ISIL militants under arms and for the fraction of minors who bore arms in the service of the Caliphate, but should the same fate be meted out to wives, widows and children who had no influence on how the victims of ISIL were treated? I think that that is going too far in the "just desserts" direction and is really just revenge and state terrorism dressed up as "justice". The fact that torture is alleged to have been used by Coalition allies on children should give everyone pause to think about what's going on in post Caliphate Mesopotamia.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
Human Rights Watch has released a report finding that Iraq and authorities in the Kurdish Regional Government (KRG) are alleged to be forcibly detaining about 1500 children for association with ISIL and that torture is being allegedly used on some of them to extract confessions.

Abuses against Children Suspected of ISIS Affiliation in Iraq | HRW

While some of the children may have been minors under arms in the service of ISIL, the vast majority are being charged with simply being associated with the organisation. The alleged use of torture to extract confessions of these children calls into question the legitimacy of this process and the validity of the results of the prosecutorial process.

This is not cool and people of the world must put great pressure on Iraq and the KRG to stop and reverse this miscarriage of justice. I say the people of the world because the governments of many states seem quite willing to let this and other legal abuses by Iraq and the KRG go on unopposed. Iraq and the KRG are busy hanging ISIL captives including women brides of ISIL fighters after giving them pro-forma mock trials with large batches of defendants tried and condemned to death in minutes.

Cheers?
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

More than 2k children go missing every week in the US. Where is your outrage????
 
OldFatGuy said:
More than 2k children go missing every week in the US. Where is your outrage????
Click to expand...

OldFatGuy:

These children are not missing, they're suffering in plain sight. They're in internment camps run by allies of the US-led Coalition and some are alleged to have been tortured. These children are the responsibility of the whole Coalition. Your absurd whataboutism is just an attempted deflection from that set of facts. The Coalition is supposed to be fighting a war on terror, not a war of terror.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
OldFatGuy:

These children are not missing, they're suffering in plain sight. They're in internment camps run by allies of the US-led Coalition and some are alleged to have been tortured. These children are the responsibility of the whole Coalition. Your absurd whataboutism is just an attempted deflection from that set of facts. The Coalition is supposed to be fighting a war on terror, not a war of terror.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

Does that excuse your lack of outrage over the missing children in the US? Why should I care about suffering Iraq, when there is suffering at home that isn't resolved?

This is the US, not Iraq. Let the people of Iraq resolve their own problems, while we deal with ours. Your hypocrisy reeks.
 
OldFatGuy said:
Does that excuse your lack of outrage over the missing children in the US? Why should I care about suffering Iraq, when there is suffering at home that isn't resolved?

This is the US, not Iraq. Let the people of Iraq resolve their own problems, while we deal with ours. Your hypocrisy reeks.
Click to expand...

OldFatGuy:

It is our Armed Forces in concert with Kurdish forces and mercenaries which are shipping these kids off to internment and in some cases torture in Iraq. Neither you nor I can do anything about the missing kids of America and we are not the cause of their disappearance but we can do something about these 1500 kids whose fates we are complicit in. If you don't want to care and agitate on these childrens' behalf, then that's fine by me. But hopefully others in America and abroad will have more compassion and enough humanity to do so.

No cheers for you.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
OldFatGuy:

It is our Armed Forces in concert with Kurdish forces and mercenaries which are shipping these kids off to internment and in some cases torture in Iraq. Neither you nor I can do anything about the missing kids of America and we are not the cause of their disappearance but we can do something about these 1500 kids whose fates we are complicit in. If you don't want to care and agitate on these childrens' behalf, then that's fine by me. But hopefully others in America and abroad will have more compassion and enough humanity to do so.

No cheers for you.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

So? It is war. During war there are always civilian casualties. I have no empathy for muslims. Where is your outrage for the missing American children?
 
The torture of children is wrong in any setting and I condemn such actions.
 
OldFatGuy said:
So? It is war. During war there are always civilian casualties. I have no empathy for muslims. Where is your outrage for the missing American children?
Click to expand...

OldFatGuy:

These children are not collateral damage. They are in the custody of coalition forces. Their internment and alleged torture is not happening accidentally but is the result of conscious decisions made by their captors. Perhaps the internment is necessary for some. But the torture is not and is criminal. The cattle-car prosecutions with very short trials and no proper legal representation for the accused are also illegal by the Geneva Conventions and by international custom and usage. This is wrong and both of our governments (which are Coalition members) are responsible for setting this right and making sure that the probability of this happening again is as low as humanly possible.

As to my outrage for missing American children, there is no one to focus the rage upon. When a culprit is caught I am pleased. When a missing kid escapes I celebrate their determination and good fortune. When the bodies turn up I lament for a shadow land gone mad and the flame of a life snuffed out. There is no point to raging against an abyss which is out of my control. My government however is complicit in this horror and so I can have an impact and thus I damn well will rage because if my state is complicit and does nothing then I am complicit too if I do nothing.

Still no cheers for you.
Evilroddy.
 
Rogue Valley said:
The torture of children is wrong in any setting and I condemn such actions.
Click to expand...

Rogue Valley:

Bravo, sir, for having a strong moral compass and the guts to speak publicly about truth to power when no one wants to hear it.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
I doubt Nasim's situation is an isolated incident.

Disgusting.
 
Evilroddy said:
OldFatGuy:

These children are not collateral damage. They are in the custody of coalition forces. Their internment and alleged torture is not happening accidentally but is the result of conscious decisions made by their captors. Perhaps the internment is necessary for some. But the torture is not and is criminal. The cattle-car prosecutions with very short trials and no proper legal representation for the accused are also illegal by the Geneva Conventions and by international custom and usage. This is wrong and both of our governments (which are Coalition members) are responsible for setting this right and making sure that the probability of this happening again is as low as humanly possible.

As to my outrage for missing American children, there is no one to focus the rage upon. When a culprit is caught I am pleased. When a missing kid escapes I celebrate their determination and good fortune. When the bodies turn up I lament for a shadow land gone mad and the flame of a life snuffed out. There is no point to raging against an abyss which is out of my control. My government however is complicit in this horror and so I can have an impact and thus I damn well will rage because if my state is complicit and does nothing then I am complicit too if I do nothing.

Still no cheers for you.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

Keep rationalizing.
 
Evilroddy said:
Tigerace117:

You may have a point for the adult ISIL militants under arms and for the fraction of minors who bore arms in the service of the Caliphate, but should the same fate be meted out to wives, widows and children who had no influence on how the victims of ISIL were treated? I think that that is going too far in the "just desserts" direction and is really just revenge and state terrorism dressed up as "justice". The fact that torture is alleged to have been used by Coalition allies on children should give everyone pause to think about what's going on in post Caliphate Mesopotamia.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

You mean the people who often willingly left their home countries to join the organization? ISIS was very explicitly on how it treated those unfortunates it caught. This was not a secret.

Was it "state terrorism" when the some of the SS death camp guards met an early end at the hands of their victims?

Frankly you seem far so concerned about the fate of people who had no problems with the torture of murder of huge numbers of innocent people and only now, as their "state" finishes crashing down, have developed a interest in coming home.
 
Evilroddy said:
Human Rights Watch has released a report finding that Iraq and authorities in the Kurdish Regional Government (KRG) are alleged to be forcibly detaining about 1500 children for association with ISIL and that torture is being allegedly used on some of them to extract confessions.

Abuses against Children Suspected of ISIS Affiliation in Iraq | HRW

While some of the children may have been minors under arms in the service of ISIL, the vast majority are being charged with simply being associated with the organisation. The alleged use of torture to extract confessions of these children calls into question the legitimacy of this process and the validity of the results of the prosecutorial process.

This is not cool and people of the world must put great pressure on Iraq and the KRG to stop and reverse this miscarriage of justice. I say the people of the world because the governments of many states seem quite willing to let this and other legal abuses by Iraq and the KRG go on unopposed. Iraq and the KRG are busy hanging ISIL captives including women brides of ISIL fighters after giving them pro-forma mock trials with large batches of defendants tried and condemned to death in minutes.

Cheers?
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

The situation for those in Iraq , having been conquered , reconquered in the mess the country has descended into since the ouster of Hussein , is absolutely dreadful imo I recall watching a documentary about the Iraqis charged with being ISIS associates/fighters by Kurdish fighters and thought about how ad hoc and matter of fact the process was and how many innocent people will be swept up by it and killed

The reality of kids being tortured into " confessions " for things they will , or could be , executed for is about as vile a thought as is possible to imagine

I agree with you Roddy , Western responsibility for the horror show that is Iraq today compels it's people to pressure their leaders into putting a stop to these crimes.
 
Tigerace117 said:
You mean the people who often willingly left their home countries to join the organization? ISIS was very explicitly on how it treated those unfortunates it caught. This was not a secret.

Was it "state terrorism" when the some of the SS death camp guards met an early end at the hands of their victims?

Frankly you seem far so concerned about the fate of people who had no problems with the torture of murder of huge numbers of innocent people and only now, as their "state" finishes crashing down, have developed a interest in coming home.
Click to expand...

Tigerace117:

1) The children and the great majority of the women were not killing anyone. They were married to or sired by or forced into service by ISIL. These kids are being tortured into making false confessions and then being found guilty by association for the crimes which others committed.

2) Please point out where the wives and minor children of the SS and other Nazi fanatics were killed for their associations with organisations to which their husbands/fathers belonged by the Western Allies. Hint, there was no such programme. Or are you suggest we act more like Stalinist totalitarians and liquidate the lot?

3) States which give birth to butchers and torturers must take responsibility for their own and must repatriate, try, convict and punish them according to the rule of law under their own legal code or if necessary hand them over to an international criminal tribunal if for some reason their own state cannot do the prosecution. Those who cannot be proved to have committed killings and torture can still be convicted of other serious crimes from terrorism to treason and dealt with lawfully. Those who cannot be proved to have done anything seriously criminal can still be held in preventative detention if their home country deems them a real threat to other citizens or to the state. Those who cannot be proved to have done any criminal acts and who pose no real threat can still be required to attend and pass de-radicalisation programmes before being released back into the public at large.

It was Western military intervention which destabilised the Greater Middle East region and created the chaotic conditions by which al-Qaeda, ISIL and similar organisations grew and became real threats to the West and their own region, so it is up to Western governments to at least clean up the mess with respect to their own citizens who fought for and willingly supported these terroristic groups. If they are just left to rot in internment camps and Turkey or some other foreign military power invades and plunges the local region into renewed chaos, then these stateless criminals and hapless victims will be able to disappear into the wider population and then we lose track of them. That is bad policy. If they are unlawfully killed by Iraqi and Kurdish kangaroo courts and mass execution programmes then you create hundreds or thousands of martyrs to help radicalise and muster the aggrieved next generation of the family and friends of the martyred to become Jihadis. That is even worse policy for the blowback it will generate.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
Tigerace117:

1) The children and the great majority of the women were not killing anyone. They were married to or sired by or forced into service by ISIL. These kids are being tortured into making false confessions and then being found guilty by association for the crimes which others committed.

2) Please point out where the wives and minor children of the SS and other Nazi fanatics were killed for their associations with organisations to which their husbands/fathers belonged by the Western Allies. Hint, there was no such programme. Or are you suggest we act more like Stalinist totalitarians and liquidate the lot?

3) States which give birth to butchers and torturers must take responsibility for their own and must repatriate, try, convict and punish them according to the rule of law under their own legal code or if necessary hand them over to an international criminal tribunal if for some reason their own state cannot do the prosecution. Those who cannot be proved to have committed killings and torture can still be convicted of other serious crimes from terrorism to treason and dealt with lawfully. Those who cannot be proved to have done anything seriously criminal can still be held in preventative detention if their home country deems them a real threat to other citizens or to the state. Those who cannot be proved to have done any criminal acts and who pose no real threat can still be required to attend and pass de-radicalisation programmes before being released back into the public at large.

It was Western military intervention which destabilised the Greater Middle East region and created the chaotic conditions by which al-Qaeda, ISIL and similar organisations grew and became real threats to the West and their own region, so it is up to Western governments to at least clean up the mess with respect to their own citizens who fought for and willingly supported these terroristic groups. If they are just left to rot in internment camps and Turkey or some other foreign military power invades and plunges the local region into renewed chaos, then these stateless criminals and hapless victims will be able to disappear into the wider population and then we lose track of them. That is bad policy. If they are unlawfully killed by Iraqi and Kurdish kangaroo courts and mass execution programmes then you create hundreds or thousands of martyrs to help radicalise and muster the aggrieved next generation of the family and friends of the martyred to become Jihadis. That is even worse policy for the blowback it will generate.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

Yes, they purposefully went to Syria and Iraq to marry ISIS fighters. They knew full well what ISIS was doing and they went to join them anyway. Were the clerks who ensured the trains to the camps ran efficiently any less guilty than the einsatzgruppen themselves?

Given your habit of crying about everything the West does regardless, it sounds like you would be a lot more pleased if we did just shoot the lot.

Ah yes, another desperate attempt to blame the West. Why am I not surprised?

Frankly all your posts are is desperate handwaving to try and excuse away the actions of the terrorists themselves in favor of complaining about the West.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Yes, they purposefully went to Syria and Iraq to marry ISIS fighters. They knew full well what ISIS was doing and they went to join them anyway. Were the clerks who ensured the trains to the camps ran efficiently any less guilty than the einsatzgruppen themselves?

Given your habit of crying about everything the West does regardless, it sounds like you would be a lot more pleased if we did just shoot the lot.

Ah yes, another desperate attempt to blame the West. Why am I not surprised?

Frankly all your posts are is desperate handwaving to try and excuse away the actions of the terrorists themselves in favor of complaining about the West.
Click to expand...

Tigerace117:

That was a weak and pointless whine-fest too. Ad hominem attacks are a sure sign that a debater has a poor case. In case you have forgotten this thread is about the tortute of minors to get false confessions of participation in ISIL and is not about my views of militarism or America. I am not concerned about your opinion of me, so the ad homs are of no value except as dog-whistles to bring the pack to attention.

ISIL is a monsterous organisation made up of militants and non-militants alike. You can't just kill them all and let Allah sort them out, or your behaviour becomes no better than that of the ISIL militants. Try them fairly, convict them if possible and punish them appropriately for the crimes they themselves committed, not for the crimes of their husbands or their parents. If minors are found to have been militants then punish them accordingly. But the torture of minors and especially children is never right and never acceptable. It is our allies who are doing this with our cooperation. That makes us complicit in the crimes unless we oppose them openly and loudly. That's what I will do. You can make your own choices.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
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