Israel, US send secret delegation to Ukraine to train against S-300 – report

Israel, US send secret delegation to Ukraine to train against S-300 – report

10/16/18
Israel and the United States sent a secret military delegation to Ukraine to test the Russian-made S-300 missile defense system, which Moscow recently provided to Syria, Hadashot TV news reported Monday, citing Syrian and Russian news outlets. There was no comment on the reports from either Israel or the US. According to the reports, members of the Ukrainian military instructed their US and Israeli counterparts on the capabilities of the system, as well as running through various possible scenarios. One Russian report said that F-15 planes are training in Ukraine against the S-300 as part of an international exercise that includes Israeli pilots. It wasn’t immediately clear if the Israeli pilots were flying or merely observing from the ground.

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The Ukraine military has real life experience dealing with many Russian battle systems including anti-air and electronic jamming. Ukraine fighter jets have been tracked by Russian S-300/S-400 anti-air systems. As I write this there is a joint multinational air exercise "Clear Sky-2018" being held at the Starokostiantyniv Air Base in Ukraine. The exercise includes pilots, support personnel, and aircraft from Ukraine, the United States, Romania, Poland, Belgium, Denmark, Great Britain, the Netherlands, Greece, and Estonia. It is quite possible that IAF personnel are also now in Ukraine observing/partaking the multinational exercise.

well... not secret anymore are they... bit of a stealth fail

Israel already had access to the s-300, they bought it years ago just to evaluation and training. Granted ukraine has the inferior version to russias, but assad likely does as well since russia is not going to hand their latest and greatest to just anyone, they never let the soviet union have it most of the time.

Yes russia does track ukrainian aircraft, they also in syria track american and israeli aircraft. The s-300 and s-400 can track stealth aircraft too, the real question comes with not that they can track them but how close they need to be to target, as thier tracking will be done for stealth with a combination of multiple bands including l band working in series with other batteries, however there is no proof L band was perfected enough to target an enemy by the russians even when triangulated through multiple radars. The s-300 and s-400 radars actually detect aircraft outside the range of their own missiles, so tracking is not the issue but targetting and whether the aircraft approaching can strike the battery,strike and turn around before it itself is within targetting and tracking range of the battery.


Easiest way to date is to know the missile ranges, and simply move around them, Israel has done it for decades, if diverting a path to reach a target is viable any sane nation will do that before trying to combat an air defense system.

Rogue Valley said:

Israel, US send secret delegation to Ukraine to train against S-300 – report

The Ukraine military has real life experience dealing with many Russian battle systems including anti-air and electronic jamming. Ukraine fighter jets have been tracked by Russian S-300/S-400 anti-air systems. As I write this there is a joint multinational air exercise "Clear Sky-2018" being held at the Starokostiantyniv Air Base in Ukraine. The exercise includes pilots, support personnel, and aircraft from Ukraine, the United States, Romania, Poland, Belgium, Denmark, Great Britain, the Netherlands, Greece, and Estonia. It is quite possible that IAF personnel are also now in Ukraine observing/partaking the multinational exercise.

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What is the point you're trying to make here?


Russia is certainly not lighting up all its air defences for the viewing pleasure of Americans and Israelis.

beerftw said:

Israel already had access to the s-300, they bought it years ago just to evaluation and training. Granted ukraine has the inferior version to russias, but assad likely does as well since russia is not going to hand their latest and greatest to just anyone, they never let the soviet union have it most of the time.

Yes russia does track ukrainian aircraft, they also in syria track american and israeli aircraft. The s-300 and s-400 can track stealth aircraft too, the real question comes with not that they can track them but how close they need to be to target, as thier tracking will be done for stealth with a combination of multiple bands including l band working in series with other batteries, however there is no proof L band was perfected enough to target an enemy by the russians even when triangulated through multiple radars. The s-300 and s-400 radars actually detect aircraft outside the range of their own missiles, so tracking is not the issue but targetting and whether the aircraft approaching can strike the battery,strike and turn around before it itself is within targetting and tracking range of the battery.


Easiest way to date is to know the missile ranges, and simply move around them, Israel has done it for decades, if diverting a path to reach a target is viable any sane nation will do that before trying to combat an air defense system.

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This is not true Beerftw.


Do you mean Greece? An old version.

Westphalian said:

This is not true Beerftw.

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What makes you think Israel lacked (and lacks) the capacity to get hold of the system? Speaking of stealth as we are here.

Do you mean Greece? An old version.

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The IAF has flown trials against the "Greek" equipment (2015) but it has also flown trials against equipment of others.

Westphalian said:

What is the point you're trying to make here?

Russia is certainly not lighting up all its air defences for the viewing pleasure of Americans and Israelis.

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Only when civilian airliners are about, eh?

Fledermaus said:

Only when civilian airliners are about, eh?

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That was an accident.

Or, alternatively.............

Lies, lies, all lies, all of it.

:mrgreen:

Westphalian said:

This is not true Beerftw.


Do you mean Greece? An old version.

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Yes israel aquired the old greek export model, the missiles and the launchers are the same as the modern russian system, with radars and electronics being superior for the initial russian domestic models and greatly updated over time. This still means israel has viable knowledge on the system, and need to account for updated radars and targetting systems.

But at the same time assads s-300 systems are not going to be bleeding edge either, despite russia very slowly replacing them with the newer s400 and soon s500. Assads new systems are likely the older models in russian service far better than the greek version but also behind the current russian verion, basically batteries that were past due for upgrade and never gotten to. Assads most advanced system is not even the s-300 it is the panstir, which is newer than the s-400 but designed to stop attack helicopters and low flying cruise missiles, and even that is an export version.

Chagos said:

That was an accident.

Or, alternatively.............

Lies, lies, all lies, all of it.

:mrgreen:

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You joke now but russia has accidentally shot down an airline with the buk system before. The bigger problem is russia and ukraine still use aircraft designed for both military and civilian use, which likely confuses the crap out of either country, when your civilian airlines and military heavy lift and troop transport aircraft look the same because often times over there they are.

beerftw said:

You joke now but russia has accidentally shot down an airline with the buk system before. The bigger problem is russia and ukraine still use aircraft designed for both military and civilian use, which likely confuses the crap out of either country, when your civilian airlines and military heavy lift and troop transport aircraft look the same because often times over there they are.

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Yeah, but I think the reference clearly aimed (forgive the unintended pun) at MH-17.

Which by all signs, however circumstantial some want to make them, was shot down neither from Russian territory nor by Ukrainian forces.

beerftw said:

You joke now but russia has accidentally shot down an airline with the buk system before. The bigger problem is russia and ukraine still use aircraft designed for both military and civilian use, which likely confuses the crap out of either country, when your civilian airlines and military heavy lift and troop transport aircraft look the same because often times over there they are.

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I remember relief flights into Somalia landing... Soviet built cargo birds came in with tail turrets intact.