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Are you pro-rebel or pro-Assad ?

A Syrian said:
Well the winners are basically Assad and the kurds
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The Kurds should just be given their own country... that would solve a lot of problems.
 
What has receded in memory more and more in proportion to how this mess has been further complicated since, is that initially discontented Syrians took to the streets in largely non-violent protests. Clearly fuelled by the "Arab spring" which should already have been called "autumn" at the time.

The violence was then introduced by the Assad regime, firing upon protesters most indiscriminately and finally amounting to the deaths of up to a thousand and arrests which ended in the detained being tortured.

Not a novelty in Syria BTW, seeing how Bashar's father (Hafiz) had massacred thousands in Hama just 30 years earlier.

In this present instance, what had begun as initial demands for democratic reforms then escalated to calls for overthrow of the government, that development inducing Assad (Bashar) to step up the violence and causing not only large parts of the protesters to take up arms, but also many of Bashar's army to defect in support of the protests. Initially not so much for ideological reasons but more so from the discontent that the execution of Bashar's security forces at Jisr al-Shugur sowed, when said forces refused to fire upon fellow Syrians.

Those ex-militaries formed the core of the Free Syrian Army (FSA) that initially bore the brunt of the fight against the regime. The whole movement to be subsequently hijacked in large parts by AQ extremists (under whichever name they chose for themselves) and finally by the IS, which would probably not have risen to the extent it did, had it not used the opportunities of the Syrian civil war as a platform for its successful victories in Iraq (yes, it originated there but it was the Syrian conflict that propelled it).

In view of this development I am decidedly NOT for the rebels but in view of the whole situation I'm also decidedly NOT for Assad either.

As to the OP, I am sympathetic to her position seeing how she's a Christian. Irrespective of what a thug Assad is and always was, he's basically secular no matter to what religious creed his family belongs (Alawite). That means he's never allowed one religious group to practice extremist suppression of the other which, but for his rule, would have had militant Muslims wage violence on Christian and other minorities (including his own) long ago.
 
Bodhisattva said:
The Kurds should just be given their own country... that would solve a lot of problems.
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Creating a hostile landlocked state that would get most of the oil of the previous nations , yea that would solve many problems
 
A Syrian said:
Creating a hostile landlocked state that would get most of the oil of the previous nations , yea that would solve many problems
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My concern is to stop all of the stupid and needless killing of innocent people. Kurdistan would help in this process...
 
A Syrian said:
What ??? the protestors were invaders ? And terrorists ? Are you serious dude ?
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Apocalypse was referring to Palestinians which you unwisely introduced into this topic. More wisely than you, he has already suggested that particular issue as not belonging here, seeing how any discussion of the Israel/Palestine issue is confined EXCLUSIVELY to a specific forum created here for just that purpose. Discussing it outside of that forum is not seen kindly by the administration here so it would be better if you and others took heed.
 
Chagos said:
What has receded in memory more and more in proportion to how this mess has been further complicated since, is that initially discontented Syrians took to the streets in largely non-violent protests. Clearly fuelled by the "Arab spring" which should already have been called "autumn" at the time.

The violence was then introduced by the Assad regime, firing upon protesters most indiscriminately and finally amounting to the deaths of up to a thousand and arrests which ended in the detained being tortured.

Not a novelty in Syria BTW, seeing how Bashar's father (Hafiz) had massacred thousands in Hama just 30 years earlier.

In this present instance, what had begun as initial demands for democratic reforms then escalated to calls for overthrow of the government, that development inducing Assad (Bashar) to step up the violence and causing not only large parts of the protesters to take up arms, but also many of Bashar's army to defect in support of the protests. Initially not so much for ideological reasons but more so from the discontent that the execution of Bashar's security forces at Jisr al-Shugur sowed, when said forces refused to fire upon fellow Syrians.

Those ex-militaries formed the core of the Free Syrian Army (FSA) that initially bore the brunt of the fight against the regime. The whole movement to be subsequently hijacked in large parts by AQ extremists (under whichever name they chose for themselves) and finally by the IS, which would probably not have risen to the extent it did, had it not used the opportunities of the Syrian civil war as a platform for its successful victories in Iraq (yes, it originated there but it was the Syrian conflict that propelled it).

In view of this development I am decidedly NOT for the rebels but in view of the whole situation I'm also decidedly NOT for Assad either.

As to the OP, I am sympathetic to her position seeing how she's a Christian. Irrespective of what a thug Assad is and always was, he's basically secular no matter to what religious creed his family belongs (Alawite). That means he's never allowed one religious group to practice extremist suppression of the other which, but for his rule, would have had militant Muslims wage violence on Christian and other minorities (including his own) long ago.
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Even if there wasn't ISIS and al-Qaeda on the side opposing Assad and his allies the eventual resolution in case of a rebel victory would probably not be a Middle Eastern Switzerland. In the long run however there is no doubt that Assad remaining in power is bad. You need to keep kicking out the evil doers in control until the moderate side of society is strong enough to not just prevail but also set the tone of the country's future.
 
Chagos said:
What has receded in memory more and more in proportion to how this mess has been further complicated since, is that initially discontented Syrians took to the streets in largely non-violent protests. Clearly fuelled by the "Arab spring" which should already have been called "autumn" at the time.

The violence was then introduced by the Assad regime, firing upon protesters most indiscriminately and finally amounting to the deaths of up to a thousand and arrests which ended in the detained being tortured.

Not a novelty in Syria BTW, seeing how Bashar's father (Hafiz) had massacred thousands in Hama just 30 years earlier.

In this present instance, what had begun as initial demands for democratic reforms then escalated to calls for overthrow of the government, that development inducing Assad (Bashar) to step up the violence and causing not only large parts of the protesters to take up arms, but also many of Bashar's army to defect in support of the protests. Initially not so much for ideological reasons but more so from the discontent that the execution of Bashar's security forces at Jisr al-Shugur sowed, when said forces refused to fire upon fellow Syrians.

Those ex-militaries formed the core of the Free Syrian Army (FSA) that initially bore the brunt of the fight against the regime. The whole movement to be subsequently hijacked in large parts by AQ extremists (under whichever name they chose for themselves) and finally by the IS, which would probably not have risen to the extent it did, had it not used the opportunities of the Syrian civil war as a platform for its successful victories in Iraq (yes, it originated there but it was the Syrian conflict that propelled it).

In view of this development I am decidedly NOT for the rebels but in view of the whole situation I'm also decidedly NOT for Assad either.

As to the OP, I am sympathetic to her position seeing how she's a Christian. Irrespective of what a thug Assad is and always was, he's basically secular no matter to what religious creed his family belongs (Alawite). That means he's never allowed one religious group to practice extremist suppression of the other which, but for his rule, would have had militant Muslims wage violence on Christian and other minorities (including his own) long ago.
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I agree with parts of your argument , indeed Assad was ruthless in dealing with the protesters (btw Hama is not really a thing people would talk about , nearly everyone agrees that it targeted the islamic brotherhood and that it didn't target innocents even the rebels whom many took part in the massacre) but the reason I support Assad is much more complicated , Assad and his father worked for a cause in our internal policy , to make us see ourselves as Syrians , this succeded among certain regions like the urban Damascus and Aleppo and also the rural regions in the northwest (ofc the coast too) and it failed around other cities in the south and ofc Hama (not to mention rural damascus) those regions were the ones that opposed Assad and rose up against him (and the movement of rurals into urban areas after the drought caused a rift to form between both urban sunnis and rural sunnis) . It is very complicated but if we want to be "Syrian" the only leader we can follow is Assad , he gave us propserity and allowed us to flourish , sure he would respond violently to opposition , but there are many things more important than liberty .
 
Bodhisattva said:
My concern is to stop all of the stupid and needless killing of innocent people. Kurdistan would help in this process...
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They are ethnically cleansing assyrians and arabs , Damascus is home to many refugess from their regions .
 
Apocalypse said:
Even if there wasn't ISIS and al-Qaeda on the side opposing Assad and his allies the eventual resolution in case of a rebel victory would probably not be a Middle Eastern Switzerland. In the long run however there is no doubt that Assad remaining in power is bad. You need to keep kicking out the evil doers in control until the moderate side of society is strong enough to not just prevail but also set the tone of the country's future.
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Agreed on all points and specifically on the last one.

With the present weakness of the democratically minded in that part of the world resting in the fact that the only thing that unites them is no match for those that have the common platform of religious fundamentalism to forge their unity.

That's the problem not only in Syria (Egypt immediately comes to mind as well), democrats are nowhere near as well organized as the Muslim brotherhood. And where the latter continuously paints itself as not being radical, those very factions within that it denies exist, always wind up carrying the day.

Favourite solutions having so far been (everywhere) to come down on it with force.

Of course the Brotherhood would never have risen to its prominence, had the societies it rose in not been as broken as they are.

And with the last colonial powers that contributed to that broken-ness now departed decades ago, blaming it all on those has become pretty fruitless by now. If "your parents" prevented you from growing up in their time, it's pretty childish still to blame them for you not bothering even now, long after they've died (figuratively).
 
A Syrian said:
Or any other group
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We are not false flag fans. ( sorry about that. That makes two idiot presidents who used ghouta as a ****ed up pertext for attacking your presidents army. )
 
A Syrian said:
They are ethnically cleansing assyrians and arabs , Damascus is home to many refugess from their regions .
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The real problem is Islam over there but there is not much that can be done about that now... best to just split apart all of the hatred.
 
Bodhisattva said:
The real problem is Islam over there but there is not much that can be done about that now... best to just split apart all of the hatred.
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It is not "the" problem nor a problem , muslims are just normal people who go about their day and we have very friendly relations (there is always at least one muslim family celebrating christmas with us each year)
 
A Syrian said:
I agree with parts of your argument , indeed Assad was ruthless in dealing with the protesters (btw Hama is not really a thing people would talk about , nearly everyone agrees that it targeted the islamic brotherhood and that it didn't target innocents even the rebels whom many took part in the massacre) but the reason I support Assad is much more complicated , Assad and his father worked for a cause in our internal policy , to make us see ourselves as Syrians , this succeded among certain regions like the urban Damascus and Aleppo and also the rural regions in the northwest (ofc the coast too) and it failed around other cities in the south and ofc Hama (not to mention rural damascus) those regions were the ones that opposed Assad and rose up against him (and the movement of rurals into urban areas after the drought caused a rift to form between both urban sunnis and rural sunnis) . It is very complicated but if we want to be "Syrian" the only leader we can follow is Assad , he gave us propserity and allowed us to flourish , sure he would respond violently to opposition , but there are many things more important than liberty .
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To be clear, I am sympathetic to your stance and the position you are in. I also see much truth in what you describe.

Where I am totally opposed is your last sentence (respectively your last words). Freedom is the highest of goods, in fact to die for.

You may say that it's easy for me to so pompously spout from the relative comfort of the liberal Europe in which I now live, but I haven't always lived here.

I've also lived in places that showed the atrocities that suppression of freedom brings, especially when that is done in support of a seemingly nobler cause.

With all of that said, I have absolutely no solution for how the Syrian chaos be resolved. All I know is that Assad (or anyone of his stance) is not it.
 
A Syrian said:
It is not "the" problem nor a problem , muslims are just normal people who go about their day and we have very friendly relations (there is always at least one muslim family celebrating christmas with us each year)
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I would be in Syria often in times past (much of it during Hafiz reign) and even lived in Damascus and Aleppo for about half a year. Thus I can only confirm what you say, based on my own experiences then. And I have no reason to think that much has changed in that respect.

The changing factor that I see (not just in Syria) is radicalization thru interested groups. And where I do not see radical democrats, it's pretty obvious who I see.
 
Chagos said:
I would be in Syria often in times past (much of it during Hafiz reign) and even lived in Damascus and Aleppo for about half a year. Thus I can only confirm what you say, based on my own experiences then. And I have no reason to think that much has changed in that respect.

The changing factor that I see (not just in Syria) is radicalization thru interested groups. And where I do not see radical democrats, it's pretty obvious who I see.
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Can you tell me about your experience in Syria please ? I would love to hear it
 
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A Syrian said:
Can you tell me about your experience in Syria please ? I would love to hear it
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The company I worked for maintained liaison offices in both Damascus and Amman. Objective being to sell goods (in my case mostly industrial chemicals) to Syrian customers. I worked in trading, i.e. procuring such goods from various sources in the world and then selling them on. Mostly from abroad and thru those offices, but I often visited the customers via government channels to form relationships where possible.

Business was deemed profitable by both sides and never a problem encountered by mine in conducting it.

I also got to see much of Damascus and Aleppo, with the added advantage of being guided by locals. The countryside not so much due to lack of time, until I actually stayed in Syria in three separate stretches that lasted about 8 weeks each. One of them in Amman, the others in Damascus.

Can't remember the exact dates any more but all of it spread more or less evenly over the late 70s into the early 90s.

Hospitality experienced at peak, everyone extremely friendly, government staff, customers, Muslims (Sunni and Alawite), Christians, all of them a pleasure to meet. Great places in the cities.

I recall the beautiful grand bazaar (Al Madina Souk) in Aleppo (now sadly in ruins) and, of course, the one in Damascus.

The Ummayad mosques in both cities which under Assad rule did not deny Kafirs entrance and the time I paid homage to Salah ad-Din at his tomb and my amusement at the two sarcophagi.

The Hummus, Yabrak and the Kebabs (boyohboy, the kebabs) and the sweet stuffs that always had me fearing of becoming diabetic :lol:

The seductive but utterly deadly "ara", very good beer and Polo and of course the coffee.

I could go on and on but, seeing how that would explode this thread, won't.

Just to add that I still have Syrian friends in Europe that ran from Hafiz at the the time and have since been joined by others that ran from Bashar. Most of them are in Germany (from long before the recent so called refugee crisis) but, seeing how I live much further South, we don't get to see each other much.

But emails and Skype are a blessing.
 
Apocalypse said:
I support the ones who don't murder civilians.
That means not Assad/Russia/Iran/Hezbollah and not ISIS/al-Qaeda.
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Which is who? The Free Syrian Army does just that, as well as other fun things like recruiting child soldiers.
 
A Syrian said:
1- They don't exist (and even if they do they don't have influence inside Syria nor are they supported by the people
2- We can't confirm nor reject the claims that Assad used chemical weapons but in my opinion the argument for him not using the Chemical weapons is more convincing
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There is much to suggest the majority of the gassings were Assad's...
 
Fledermaus said:
There is much to suggest the majority of the gassings were Assad's...
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.............and, to expand a bit, barrel bombs weren't dropped indiscriminately on civilian quarters by rebel helicopters.

Because the rebels don't have any.
 
ecofarm said:
Pro freedom and anti gassing civilians, so pro non-terrorist rebels.
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non-terrorist rebels or moderate rebels don't exist. Free Syrian Army(FSA), called a moderate, is an organization consisting of gang members, thieves, criminals and outlaws. They committed all kind of atrocities: killing people based on ethnic or religious background, killing civilians, taking women as captives of war and recruiting children.
 
I'm on the side of compromise, co-existence and a peaceful evolution in Syria of a civil society where all factions can peacefully horse-trade, negotiate and compromise to make Syria peaceful, prosperous and liveable again.

The problem in Syria today is that too many people are picking and supporting military and political factions without regards to what is in the interests of all Syrians. The same process is being done by foreign states, NGO's and other organisations in the international community, which only makes matters worse inside Syria. Factioning and political fragmentation/atomisation are dissolving the social-glue which binds societies together and thus are the enemies of stable and peaceful states be they Syria, Iraq, Turkey, Myanmar/Burma, China, Israel, America or Russia. Syrians must rediscover what it means to be Syrian first (admittedly a new concept historically) and work or sacrifice for the common good of all Syrians (including their enemies) rather than continuing to tear the country apart with blind and intense/fanatical allegences to opposing domestic factions and sundry international interests.

Syria is the canary in the coal mine for what is going to happen in many states around the globe as political, economic and cultural fragmentation spread. Easy global communications which empowers those bent on fragmentation and those at the margins of society, malign state and non-state sponsored subversion of stable political systems through the sewing of social division, and the replacement of positive, centripetal nationalism which holds people's and federations together by choice, with negative centrifugal regionalism/localism/ethnic-nationalism/religious sectarianism which accentuates differences and breaks down the ties that bind communities together in peace, are effecting and affecting more and more modern states. The Great Sundering is upon us, threatening to collapse nation states which have existed as a societal model since the end of the Middle Ages. Syria is the worst-case scenario of what could happen to us all if we don't rediscover sacrifice and compromise for the common good and act accordingly to hold ourselves together in peace and cooperation..

Syria's recent past and present may be our future, if we forget our common interests and responsibilities to our neighbours and fellow countrymen and countrywomen. This applies to both individual citizens and to states in the international community as well.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Chagos said:
.............and, to expand a bit, barrel bombs weren't dropped indiscriminately on civilian quarters by rebel helicopters.

Because the rebels don't have any.
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Chaos et al.:

The more militant rebels deliver their large explosive payloads and chemical weapons loads by armoured trucks and in the case of chemical by mortar/rockets as well. The helicopters of the FSA are more mobile and visible, but all sides in the Syrian Civil War are willing to build, deploy and use explosive and chemical weapons if it suits their fanaticism or militarism.

Cheers?
Evilroddy.
 
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