Turkey will conduct 'operations' against Erdogan's enemies in U.S.

ecofarm said:

No, the nation should. And a regime that restricts national sovereignty in such a manner should be overthrown by any means.

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YOu advocate the overthrow of a sovereign nation?

Bodhisattva said:

YOu advocate the overthrow of a sovereign nation?

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Turkey is not a sovereign nation. A nation is a people, not a government. People must be free to be sovereign. The people of Turkey are not a sovereign nation. They are subjects of a regime. The Turkish regime is sovereign, it has control over its destiny. The people of Turkey are not sovereign, they do not have control over their destiny.

To review:

1. Sovereign means in control of ones own destiny.

2. Nation means the people not the government.

3. Turkey is not a sovereign nation.

4. Turkey is a sovereign regime.

5. The Turkish regime, oppressing the Turkish people and stripping the nation of sovereignty, should be overthrown by any means necessary inside or out.

ecofarm said:

Turkey is not a sovereign nation. A nation is a people, not a government. People must be free to be sovereign. The people of Turkey are not a sovereign nation. They are subjects of a regime. The Turkish regime is sovereign, it has control over its destiny. The people of Turkey are not sovereign, they do not have control over their destiny.

To review:

1. Sovereign means in control of ones own destiny.

2. Nation means the people not the government.

3. Turkey is not a sovereign nation.

4. Turkey is a sovereign regime.

5. The Turkish regime, oppressing the Turkish people and stripping the nation of sovereignty, should be overthrown by any means necessary inside or out.

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Turkey is a nation with a sovereign government. The people can only be sovereign when their government is allowed to pursue what is best for the nation. In this case the regime is the government and the people are a nation, and that includes the people of the government, whom are also part of the nation. It is complicated.

Bodhisattva said:

Turkey is a nation with a sovereign government. The people can only be sovereign when their government is allowed to pursue what is best for the nation. In this case the regime is the government and the people are a nation, and that includes the people of the government, whom are also part of the nation. It is complicated.

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Tyranny is not sovereignty. Only free nations are sovereign.

ecofarm said:

Tyranny is not sovereignty. Only free nations are sovereign.

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Tyranny is supreme power or authority... and that is also sovereignty. So yeah, it is.

Bodhisattva said:

Tyranny is supreme power or authority... and that is also sovereignty. So yeah, it is.

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Tyranny is not a sovereign nation. The nation is the people. The people do not control their own destiny beneath tyranny. Therefore, a nation is not sovereign under tyranny. A regime might be sovereign, but there's no value in the sovereignty of a regime. Sovereignty only has social value when the people are sovereign. There is no social value whatsoever to a sovereign regime.

I want Turkey to be sovereign. First it must be free.

ecofarm said:

Tyranny is not a sovereign nation. The nation is the people. The people do not control their own destiny beneath tyranny. Therefore, a nation is not sovereign under tyranny. A regime might be sovereign, but there's no value in the sovereignty of a regime. Sovereignty only has social value when the people are sovereign. There is no social value whatsoever to a sovereign regime.

I want Turkey to be sovereign. First it must be free.

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Sovereignty is supreme power or authority... as is tyranny. A tyrannical government is a sovereign one. It is therefore a free country.You are tossing in the Red Herring of social value... that is a meaningless and subjective term.

Bodhisattva said:

Sovereignty is supreme power or authority...

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The people of Turkey do not have that. They exist beneath a backwards regime.

ecofarm said:

The people of Turkey do not have that. They exist beneath a backwards regime.

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You completely missed my point... and lunch is over so I have to go.

Bodhisattva said:

You completely missed my point... and lunch is over so I have to go.

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I conceded the regime is sovereign in my first explanation. That's worthless. The only sovereignty worth anything resides with the people - national sovereignty. Who cares about tyrant sovereignty? It matters to you if a tyrant gets their way?

Any of those ****ers try to touch me or my family or friends I'll whoop a mother****er's Turk ass..

Bodhisattva said:

If it will help...

... now, regarding regimes, the Turkish one should be free to pursue their goals wherever they might transcend.

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And they should also be free to suffer the consequences of those actions, including up to having themselves Seal Team Six'd.

It seems somewhat ironic that a country like America which so repudiates international law, as evidenced by President Trump's UN speech last Tuesday and John Bolton's recent speech to the Federalist Society, then condemns the growing dictator Erdogan for misbehaving in the same way. The irony is further enhanced by the US state's reliance on assassination (CIA and military drone-strikes, bombing and missile raids against states with which you are not at war, SOF raids in states with which you are not at war, rendition and off-shore torture or detention) while simultaneously complaining that an authoritarian upstart in Turkey is beyond the pale for flaunting international law and national sovereignty, is too rich. Finally, recent threats to sanction, criminalise or even use force against agents of the International Criminal Court or cooperating third-party persons, organisations and states by the USA seems to make such criticisms ring hollow in the extreme. Erdogan is is a nasty, viscious dictator in the making, who will likely cause Turkey great suffering and harm but criticising him while behaving in the same way and while cooperating with the Egyptian dictator El-Sisi as he kills tens of thousands of Egyptians with or the Saudi and UAE royal families as they attack Yemen is the height of hypocrisy.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Evilroddy said:

It seems somewhat ironic that a country like America which so repudiates international law, as evidenced by President Trump's UN speech last Tuesday and John Bolton's recent speech to the Federalist Society, then condemns the growing dictator Erdogan for misbehaving in the same way. The irony is further enhanced by the US state's reliance on assassination (CIA and military drone-strikes, bombing and missile raids against states with which you are not at war, SOF raids in states with which you are not at war, rendition and off-shore torture or detention) while simultaneously complaining that an authoritarian upstart in Turkey is beyond the pale for flaunting international law and national sovereignty, is too rich. Finally, recent threats to sanction, criminalise or even use force against agents of the International Criminal Court or cooperating third-party persons, organisations and states by the USA seems to make such criticisms ring hollow in the extreme. Erdogan is is a nasty, viscious dictator in the making, who will likely cause Turkey great suffering and harm but criticising him while behaving in the same way and while cooperating with the Egyptian dictator El-Sisi as he kills tens of thousands of Egyptians with or the Saudi and UAE royal families as they attack Yemen is the height of hypocrisy.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

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I think you are expecting too much from many of our American friends/membership here Mr Roddy as they are hopelessly lost to their own propaganda system............... as Mr Goethe famously once pointed out.

There are none so hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.

How much support would you expect US citizens give to Turkish assassinations of US citizens in the US that Erdogan sees as a threat to himself or Turkish interests ? It would be interesting too to see what our Israeli members think about that situation seeing as they have justified it to themselves only like I expect many Americans already have

ecofarm said:

Tyranny is not a sovereign nation. The nation is the people. The people do not control their own destiny beneath tyranny. Therefore, a nation is not sovereign under tyranny. A regime might be sovereign, but there's no value in the sovereignty of a regime. Sovereignty only has social value when the people are sovereign. There is no social value whatsoever to a sovereign regime.

I want Turkey to be sovereign. First it must be free.

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How free are you in reality ?

Maybe when enough Americans realize that you have to be asleep to believe in the American Dream you will know a greater tyranny than those in Erdogans Turkey

So would you support Turkish assassinations of US citizens in the US that the Turkish intelligence claim pose a threat to Turkish lives or interests ? Surprise me by saying yes

oneworld2 said:

So would you support Turkish assassinations of US citizens in the US that the Turkish intelligence claim pose a threat to Turkish lives or interests ? Surprise me by saying yes

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False equivalence. Turkey is not a free Western democracy. Tyrannical regimes don't get to assassinate, they should be assassinated.

Are you saying that the US assassinating Nazis was the same as Nazis assassinating Americans? Surprise me by saying no.

ecofarm said:

False equivalence. Turkey is not a free Western democracy. Tyrannical regimes don't get to assassinate, they should be assassinated.

Are you saying that the US assassinating Nazis was the same as Nazis assassinating Americans? Surprise me by saying no.

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Ecofarm:

The US and Nazi Germany were locked into a total war. No such condition exists now so it is in fact your argument which is using a false equivalency. The Turks have no more legitimacy to assassinate dissidents in America than Americans have legitimacy assassinating people all around the globe who threaten American interests. American militarism and Turkish militarism are just two sides of the same coin and neither militarism or its backers are legitimate to third-party onlookers who daily have to watch and stomach the carnage wrought by such militarism.

Only blinding nationalism/tribalism or religious zealotry can distort this kind of behaviour into legitimate behaviour. And while the rest of the globe struggles to suppress militarism by means of an international criminal court as a tool of last resort for states which will not stop their own militarist, America threatens sanctions, criminal prosecution and even violence against ICC jurists, investigators and cooperating third-parties if the ICC prosecutes any American whom America itself refuses to prosecute. The justification for this bullying is sovereignty, patriotism, nationalism and the primacy of "our" national interests over all other principles, exactly what the Erdogan regime in Turkey claims as its justifications for its own desire to violate your sovereignty. You look into the mirror when you look at Turkey and recoil in disgust when you see yourselves reflected in the monsterous actions and unfettered ambition of the tyrant-in-making Erdogan. He will be what your leaders already are to the eyes of much of the world, who look at both countries and see the same thing. Lust for power, greed and unbridled ambition supercharged by the power of a hyper-militarised state which either is complicit with or has been broken to the will of the megalomaniacal leadership.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

ecofarm said:

False equivalence. Turkey is not a free Western democracy. Tyrannical regimes don't get to assassinate, they should be assassinated.

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No it's not. We are talking about whether ANY state has or should have the right to assassinate people in other states that they believe pose a threat to their security/national interests. Your attempts to set out parameters that allow your own state the right whilst denying some other states the right is just an obvious home/nationalist bias being dressed up as something else. Just be honest about it

Are you saying that the US assassinating Nazis was the same as Nazis assassinating Americans? Surprise me by saying no.

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Talking of false equivalences , thanks for providing a genuine one. As the poster above rightly pointed out , being engaged in a declared war makes a difference when it comes to the question of killing people in/from other states .

Your suggestions are based on nothing but home bias/western elitism imo giving " western democracies " ONLY the right to carry out assassinations of foreign nationals in their own countries . That view is a big big problem today and the result of a highly efficient conditioning system

oneworld2 said:

No it's not. We are talking about whether ANY state has or should have the right to assassinate people in other states that they believe pose a threat to their security/national interests.

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Free states should. That's the qualifier. Turkey is not a free state; its people are not sovereign and the regime is not representative.

So he's basically telling Gulen "I'm coming for you" ... maybe he'll try a Novichok style stunt, I wonder how Trump would handle a Novichok style incident...full caps tweet no doubt

ecofarm said:

Free states should. That's the qualifier. Turkey is not a free state; its people are not sovereign and the regime is not representative.

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So have you officially dropped the bar from " western democracies " only to " free states :" now ? I assume free states being......... erm........... all of those western democracies ?

How free are you when all of your emails phone calls have been examined by state security agencies ?

How free are you if the government have given themselves the right to arrest you , give you a military trial and execute you if they so desire ?

You live under a kleptocracy/plutocracy in the USA so by your own standards you have disqualified yourselves anyway. Trooping out every four years to vote for the puppets of the rich people that own your state should not, imo , be mistaken for freedom

Abbazorkzog said:

And they should also be free to suffer the consequences of those actions, including up to having themselves Seal Team Six'd.

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That seems to be a bit of an over reaction... can you explain why they should assassinated?

Targeting a terrorist organisation abroud should not be something new for USA, given decades of war on ''terror'' in different parts of the world with hundreds of thousands deaths of civilians by ''mistake'', thanks to Int. laws.

Bodhisattva said:

That seems to be a bit of an over reaction... can you explain why they should assassinated?

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Including that as a possible response does not exclude less extreme more appropriate ones. But Turkey is a powerful country, and should not be underestimated. A conflict with Turkey will not be in any way like our past decades of conflict with terrorist organizations.