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WW I, Korea, WW II and Israel; Heads You Win Should Not be Tails I Lose.

Indian Giver said:
No, but the idea that southern villagers spontaneously formed guerilla armies to fight on behalf of Uncle Ho's revolutionaries is propaganda. If you were a rice farmer in Quang Nam Province (I Corps) for instance, you didn't really have a choice whether or not to join the VC. The local province chief (working for the NVA) would make sure of that.

The average rice farmer likely never even considered politics or resistance. He just wanted to plant his paddies, smoke his pipe, and live peacefully with his wife and kids.

All communist revolutions try to project the illusion of broad grass roots support for their objectives. It is all smoke and mirrors.
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Nice spin.
The NVA were in the south to support the communist uprising there. The commies were fighting the government before the first NVA set foot there.
What's the point of changing history? Does it sit better with you to say it was the north invading and defeating the south? Fine then, have it, but that's not what happened. What happened was a violent reaction by a population who'd endured generations, hundreds of years, of oppression by foreigners. That's how extremists are made. You watch, though, they've got their own country now and they're doing pretty well with it. My son toured the area a couple years ago and he says the people are all doing well and there's small capitalism everywhere you go. Vietnam will be a democracy in my son's lifetime and they will have done it themselves instead of having it imposed on them.
Vietnam, when it's all said and done, once they've grown out of communism, will be an example of a people making a success of one-sided resistance to overwhelming foreign power.
 
Indian Giver said:
You really believe the communist propaganda?
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No. He and I understand history.

The VC were predominantly southern assets supported and assisted by NVA regulars.

The NVA was the northern regular army. While they did infiltrate during the Tet they normally let the VC do the work in the South.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
What a cherry picking bull**** is that.

Yeah, after 20 years of the Soviets and their suffering, some Ukrainians hoped the Nazis would be better. Shocking, huh?
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No excuses.
 
OldFatGuy said:
No excuses.
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Bull****. You really expect some Ukrainians to not jump for joy when they saw the enemies of their oppressors? Did the Holodomar not happen? Or the purges?

Some Ukrainians welcomed the Nazis because the only thing they knew about was that they were fighting the Soviets, who had killed millions of Ukrainians. Quit your bull****.
 
Grand Mal said:
Lots of South Vietnamese didn't like it either. That's who the Viet Cong were.
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A very small minority the South was sympathetic to the VC.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Bull****. You really expect some Ukrainians to not jump for joy when they saw the enemies of their oppressors? Did the Holodomar not happen? Or the purges?

Some Ukrainians welcomed the Nazis because the only thing they knew about was that they were fighting the Soviets, who had killed millions of Ukrainians. Quit your bull****.
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Ukrainians actively participated in the Nazi Holocaust, killing Jews, Gypsies, the emotionally disturbed, Catholics, the disabled. The decision to become murderers of others had nothing to do with Russian dominance over Ukraine and the Holodomor. The tartar population of Ukraine is among the most hated in the world throughout their history, from the borders of China to the edges of Europe for their murderous depredations. It was the Tartars who gave cause to Genghis Khan to unite the Mongolian tribes. Learn your history. They are no different today. One crime against one people does not excuse another crime by the victims victimizing others.
 
apdst said:
A very small minority the South was sympathetic to the VC.
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Not when I was there. The corruption and brutality of the various South Vietnamese governments, was far worse than we can imagine. Unfortunately, US paranoia toward communism all too often led American foreign policy to support fascistic despots, and South Vietnam enjoyed one after another. The south Vietnamese people had little knowledge of democracy or communist totalitarianism. They wanted protection from those who abused them, and the VC appealed to that desire. Ideology wasn't the enemy we thought it was. Vietnamese nationalism and the ending of colonial suppressions and repressions followed by despotism were the true enemies of the people. Sympathy for the VC wasn't an issue for the farmer in the fields, or workers in the cities, or the fishermen coming in from the seas and rivers, the VC offered a vision of themselves as a port in a storm. That and the idea of one Vietnam gained the Viet Minh their support in the south.

When we captured Viet Minh, they would recite our Declaration of Independence to us during interrogations. Sadly, many of the men interrogating the prisoners, mostly South Vietnamese officers, did not recognize what they hearing, and neither did our "advisors," who would step outside to vomit after watching the interrogation methods. Many of those prisoners captured were younger than 15. Do you really believe boys and girls that young understood the ideological claims for battle, or will you accept their reasoning of reacting against the brutality they had witnessed against their own by their own, the French and Japanese before them?
 
OldFatGuy said:
Ukrainians actively participated in the Nazi Holocaust, killing Jews, Gypsies, the emotionally disturbed, Catholics, the disabled.
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So did Latvians, Lithuanian's, Estonian's, Poles, Belorussian's, Romanian's, Czech's, Slovakian's, Hungarian's, Petain's gendarmes, and others.

The map below is of the 2014 presidential election in Ukraine. See that single yellow dot to the far left (west)?

That yellow dot is the only voting district in Ukraine won by a nationalist-right party candidate, Oleh Tyahnybok of the Svoboda (Freedom) party.

Kandydaty-prez-lidery-2014.jpg
 
apdst said:
A very small minority the South was sympathetic to the VC.
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Whatever. Point is, the VC were from the south and the NVA supported them.
The country's been doing pretty good ever since. Even been a stabilizing influence in the region.
 
Indian Giver said:
No, but the idea that southern villagers spontaneously formed guerilla armies to fight on behalf of Uncle Ho's revolutionaries is propaganda. If you were a rice farmer in Quang Nam Province (I Corps) for instance, you didn't really have a choice whether or not to join the VC. The local province chief (working for the NVA) would make sure of that.

The average rice farmer likely never even considered politics or resistance. He just wanted to plant his paddies, smoke his pipe, and live peacefully with his wife and kids.

All communist revolutions try to project the illusion of broad grass roots support for their objectives. It is all smoke and mirrors.
Click to expand...

Oh Yeh? Like the rice farmer really gives a crap what Geneva says, or even knows about it. Reality check! The USA exports Wars. We have had a war or wars going for 70 years and you don't do that by accident. We do not spread freedom, democracy, liberty and justice for all. We spread chaos, misery, destruction and death. That is what wars are about.
/
 
DaveFagan said:
Oh Yeh? Like the rice farmer really gives a crap what Geneva says, or even knows about it. Reality check! The USA exports Wars. We have had a war or wars going for 70 years and you don't do that by accident. We do not spread freedom, democracy, liberty and justice for all. We spread chaos, misery, destruction and death. That is what wars are about.
/
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Chaos, destruction misery and death in Japan, South Korea, the Pacific Islands we liberated, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy, Germany......

Oh, right. They are doing fine.

But hey, RT didn't tell you about any of that...
 
Rogue Valley said:
So did Latvians, Lithuanian's, Estonian's, Poles, Belorussian's, Romanian's, Czech's, Slovakian's, Hungarian's, Petain's gendarmes, and others.

The map below is of the 2014 presidential election in Ukraine. See that single yellow dot to the far left (west)?

That yellow dot is the only voting district in Ukraine won by a nationalist-right party candidate, Oleh Tyahnybok of the Svoboda (Freedom) party.
Click to expand...

Do you accept that the evils performed by any one groups excuses the evils committed by another?

Why should I, or any other American care what happens in Ukraine?

Your map, negates everything you claim. Pay attention to what you post. Ukrainian nationalism is a dead horse not in the race.
 
Fledermaus said:
Chaos, destruction misery and death in Japan, South Korea, the Pacific Islands we liberated, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy, Germany......

Oh, right. They are doing fine.

But hey, RT didn't tell you about any of that...
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What a coinky dink. I was chatting wiht ol' Caspy Milketoast, who lives in a closet so he don't have to see the Real World and then there's the fear. You probably know him. He says that's over 70 years ago and asked about more current history. Here it is. OOPSie, reality check!

[h=4][SIZE=+2]UNITED STATES INTERVENTIONS SINCE 1945
[/SIZE](A PARTIAL LIST)[/h][h=4]ASSASSINATIONS, REGIME CHANGE, MILITARY INTERVENTIONS, COVERT OPERATIONS,
COUPS AND ATTEMPTED COUPS, ELECTION INTERFERENCE, COLOR REVOLUTIONS[/h][h=4]Philippines, South Korea, Lebanon, Iran, Guatemala, Cuba, Rep. Congo (Zaire), Brazil, Greece, Russia,
Poland, Turkey, Dominican Republic, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Indonesia, Chile, Angola, East Timor, Nicaragua,
Grenada, Panama, Kyrgyzstan, Haiti, Yugoslavia, Georgia, Ukraine, Argentina, Ghana, Venezuela, Bolivia, Hondoras,
Paraguay, Mexico, El Salvador, Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, Pakistan, Yemen, Tunesia, Egypt, Libya, Syria[/h]
 
DaveFagan said:
What a coinky dink. I was chatting wiht ol' Caspy Milketoast, who lives in a closet so he don't have to see the Real World and then there's the fear. You probably know him. He says that's over 70 years ago and asked about more current history. Here it is. OOPSie, reality check!

[h=4][SIZE=+2]UNITED STATES INTERVENTIONS SINCE 1945
[/SIZE](A PARTIAL LIST)[/h][h=4]ASSASSINATIONS, REGIME CHANGE, MILITARY INTERVENTIONS, COVERT OPERATIONS,
COUPS AND ATTEMPTED COUPS, ELECTION INTERFERENCE, COLOR REVOLUTIONS[/h][h=4]Philippines, South Korea, Lebanon, Iran, Guatemala, Cuba, Rep. Congo (Zaire), Brazil, Greece, Russia,
Poland, Turkey, Dominican Republic, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Indonesia, Chile, Angola, East Timor, Nicaragua,
Grenada, Panama, Kyrgyzstan, Haiti, Yugoslavia, Georgia, Ukraine, Argentina, Ghana, Venezuela, Bolivia, Hondoras,
Paraguay, Mexico, El Salvador, Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, Pakistan, Yemen, Tunesia, Egypt, Libya, Syria[/h]
Click to expand...

Hey look. I was was discussing the same thing with the ghosts of Kruschev and Gorbachev... Both the ghost of Mao and the very living Putin declined.

And they admitted to invading and/or introducing destabilizing elements into many of those nations and many more for the purposes of fomenting revolution and the creation of Marxist Communist entities....

And we who are not RT bots know how the communist countries treated disodents.... Jail and/or summary execution.

Millions under Stalin. Millions under Mao. Over a million with Pol Pot. The "re-education" under Marxist/Communist systems were a marvel. Learn or die.

Yep....

The USA is so evil....
 
Fledermaus said:
Hey look. I was was discussing the same thing with the ghosts of Kruschev and Gorbachev... Both the ghost of Mao and the very living Putin declined. And they admitted to invading and/or introducing destabilizing elements into many of those nations and many more for the purposes of fomenting revolution and the creation of Marxist Communist entities....And we who are not RT bots know how the communist countries treated disodents.... Jail and/or summary execution.Millions under Stalin. Millions under Mao. Over a million with Pol Pot. The "re-education" under Marxist/Communist systems were a marvel. Learn or die.Yep.... The USA is so evil....
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The USA score is 20 million, but I digress. You are fortunate and can book a room at that USA tropical Paradise, a/k/a Guantanamo or the USA Gulag. Perhaps it would give you perspective outside the imaginary World you live in, or not?./
 
DaveFagan said:
The USA score is 20 million, but I digress. You are fortunate and can book a room at that USA tropical Paradise, a/k/a Guantanamo or the USA Gulag. Perhaps it would give you perspective outside the imaginary World you live in, or not?./
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Waving the BS flag on 20 million. And even if it were true that would place the US far down on the leader board....

Mao 'great leap forward' alone surpassed that number. Add the slaughter of Landlords for extra credit.
 
DaveFagan said:
Oh Yeh? Like the rice farmer really gives a crap what Geneva says, or even knows about it. Reality check! The USA exports Wars. We have had a war or wars going for 70 years and you don't do that by accident. We do not spread freedom, democracy, liberty and justice for all. We spread chaos, misery, destruction and death. That is what wars are about.
/
Click to expand...
You are 100% correct and are actually making my point. The only thing you left out is that it is not the U,S. who starts these wars. I could identify who but that is apparently against the rules of this sub-forum. How about that, a forum that actively seeks to suppress the truth.
 
Indian Giver said:
You are 100% correct and are actually making my point. The only thing you left out is that it is not the U,S. who starts these wars. I could identify who but that is apparently against the rules of this sub-forum. How about that, a forum that actively seeks to suppress the truth.
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There are no rules preventing you from stating an opinion about who started the wars...

But be prepared to get fact-slapped if you play DA JOOOZ card.
 
OldFatGuy said:
Ukrainians actively participated in the Nazi Holocaust, killing Jews, Gypsies, the emotionally disturbed, Catholics, the disabled. The decision to become murderers of others had nothing to do with Russian dominance over Ukraine and the Holodomor. The tartar population of Ukraine is among the most hated in the world throughout their history, from the borders of China to the edges of Europe for their murderous depredations. It was the Tartars who gave cause to Genghis Khan to unite the Mongolian tribes. Learn your history. They are no different today. One crime against one people does not excuse another crime by the victims victimizing others.
Click to expand...

So did Lithuanians, Hungarians, Romanians, Poles, Russians and Croatians. More Dutch policemen assisted the Nazis than there were members of the Dutch resistance. More French soldiers fought for the Vichy French then the Free French Forces. Hundreds of thousands if not millions of Germans knew about the Holocaust and the total amount that actually did something about it numbered in the dozens.

Your asinine attempts to implicit the Ukrainians in some grand nationalist and bigoted conspiracy is as stupid as it is nonsensical. Modern day Ukrainians are no more responsible for the crimes of their ancestors than modern Germans are responsible for the crimes of their forefathers.

Trying to lay the blame at the modern Ukrainian state is garbage, as is your attempt to pass yourself off as the wise elder who thinks he knows more than he actually does. It's all horse****.
 
Indian Giver said:
You are 100% correct and are actually making my point. The only thing you left out is that it is not the U,S. who starts these wars. I could identify who but that is apparently against the rules of this sub-forum. How about that, a forum that actively seeks to suppress the truth.
Click to expand...

You'd think if the Jews actually controlled the world they would've done something to stop so many of them being murdered en mass over the past couple thousand years.
 
OldFatGuy said:
Do you accept that the evils performed by any one groups excuses the evils committed by another?
Click to expand...

Virtually every major country, culture, and/or religion has committed criminal acts, including the ol' US of A.

OldFatGuy said:
Why should I, or any other American care what happens in Ukraine?
Click to expand...

I really don't care what you think about Ukraine, Kiribati, or Zimbabwe. But you're certainly not gonna muzzle me nor post crap unchallenged.

Your map, negates everything you claim. Pay attention to what you post. Ukrainian nationalism is a dead horse not in the race.
Click to expand...

Not my map. It's the 2014 electoral data from the Central Election Commission. Try again.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
You'd think if the Jews actually controlled the world they would've done something to stop so many of them being murdered en mass over the past couple thousand years.
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Oh, no... That is part of the PLAN... Let Millions die so that the survivors could inhabit a tiny slice of the Middle East.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
So did Lithuanians, Hungarians, Romanians, Poles, Russians and Croatians. More Dutch policemen assisted the Nazis than there were members of the Dutch resistance. More French soldiers fought for the Vichy French then the Free French Forces. Hundreds of thousands if not millions of Germans knew about the Holocaust and the total amount that actually did something about it numbered in the dozens.

Your asinine attempts to implicit the Ukrainians in some grand nationalist and bigoted conspiracy is as stupid as it is nonsensical. Modern day Ukrainians are no more responsible for the crimes of their ancestors than modern Germans are responsible for the crimes of their forefathers.

Trying to lay the blame at the modern Ukrainian state is garbage, as is your attempt to pass yourself off as the wise elder who thinks he knows more than he actually does. It's all horse****.
Click to expand...

Yeah, yeah, yeah, history is irrelevant. :lamo

In 1936 20% of Ukrainians were ethnic Russians. By 1950 after the expulsion of Volga Germans, Poles, Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars and Kalmyks, the importation of ethnic Russians, 78% of Ukrainians were Russian. Only those who could prove Kievan Rus or Rusyns (Ruthenians) ancestry were spared ethnic cleansing and deportation to Siberia and other eastern lands of the Soviet Union. After the fall of the Soviets, many Tartar families who had been deported started returning to Ukraine. Your ad hominem language displays your insecurity with your version of knowledge.

The third largest Jewish population in the Soviet Union were murdered by Ukrainians. Stuff that in your hat and eat it. :)

The second largest population of Roma in the Soviet Union were murdered by Ukrainians. You can't hide what the Ukrainians did with little encouragement from the Nazis.

The Tartars are still hated throughout the former Soviet Republics and the Russian steppes. No one has sympathy for them except neo Nazis.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Virtually every major country, culture, and/or religion has committed criminal acts, including the ol' US of A.
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So what? What others may or may not have done does not excuse the Ukrainians.

Rogue Valley said:
I really don't care what you think about Ukraine, Kiribati, or Zimbabwe. But you're certainly not gonna muzzle me nor post crap unchallenged.
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Doesn't answer the question, and why would I ask a question of anyone I would want to "muzzle?"

Rogue Valley said:
Not my map. It's the 2014 electoral data from the Central Election Commission. Try again.
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You posted it, it is your map. Amerigo Vespucci drew maps. None were accurate.
 
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