• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Saudi Arabia’s Arab Spring, at Last

Fledermaus said:
A long rambling post in which you avoid my question.

Not unusual for the garden variety CTer.

If the actions of the US were truly so heinous you wouldn't have to make **** up.

Like your ignorant "precursor" claim or the "US funded Al Qaeda" and the ever popular "US is fundin ISIS" nonsense.... You do occasionally get things right but then you taint your own message with ignorance and out and out lies.

Try being accurate rather than Hyperbolic. That and quit channeling the RT party line. It makes you look like Putin's Poodle.
Click to expand...


Some nice links for you
https://www.globalpolicy.org/iraq-c...-/us-and-british-support-for-huss-regime.html

"US Intelligence Helps Saddam's Party Seize Power in 1963 | US and British Support for Saddam in the 1970s and 1980s
US Intelligence Helps Saddam's Party Seize Power in 1963


Saddam Key in Early CIA Plot (April 10, 2003)
According to former US intelligence officials and diplomats, the CIA's relationship with Saddam Hussein dates back to 1959, when he was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad that attempted to assassinate Iraqi Prime Minister Abd al-Karim Qasim. (United Press International)
A Tyrant Forty Years in the Making (March 14, 2003)
Roger Morris writes of the "regime change" carried out by the CIA in Iraq forty years ago. Among the CIA's actions were attempted political assassinations and the handing over of a list of suspected communists and leftists that led to the deaths of thousands of Iraqis at the hands of Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath Party. (New York Times)
CIA Lists Provide Basis for Iraqi Bloodbath
In this excerpt from his classic study of Iraqi politics, Hanna Batatu discusses how the Ba`ath Party seized power for the first time in a military coup in February 1963. He speaks of lists, provided by US intelligence, that enabled the party to hunt down its enemies, particularly the Communists, in a terrible bloodletting.
US and British Support for Saddam in the 1970s and 1980s


The Riegle Report (1994)
This report by the Senate Banking Committee analyzes the US's exports of warfare-related goods to Iraq and their possible impact on the health consequences of the Gulf War. The report concludes that the US provided Iraq "with 'dual-use' licensed materials which assisted in the development of Iraqi chemical, biological and missile-system programs." (Gulflink)
Officers Say US Aided Iraq in War Despite Use of Gas (August 18, 2002)
According to senior military officials, a covert program carried out during the Reagan Administration provided Iraq with critical battle planning assistance at a time when US intelligence agencies knew that Iraqi commanders would employ chemical weapons against Iran. (New York Times)

Did Saddam Die for Our Sins? (January 9, 2007)
The US-backed Iraq Tribunal sentenced Saddam Hussein to death for his role in the 1982 massacre of nearly 150 Shiites in Dujail, Iraq. But the same court has dropped all charges against Hussein, post mortem, for the killing of 180,000 Kurds during the 1980s – crimes committed with Western complicity. The author of this TomPaine piece concludes that if the tribunal does not look into US and British involvement in the genocide case, it will fail "to educate the world about Saddam and his barbarous regime."
This Was a Guilty Verdict on America "
 
DaveFagan said:
Some nice links for you
https://www.globalpolicy.org/iraq-c...-/us-and-british-support-for-huss-regime.html

"US Intelligence Helps Saddam's Party Seize Power in 1963 | US and British Support for Saddam in the 1970s and 1980s
US Intelligence Helps Saddam's Party Seize Power in 1963


Saddam Key in Early CIA Plot (April 10, 2003)
According to former US intelligence officials and diplomats, the CIA's relationship with Saddam Hussein dates back to 1959, when he was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad that attempted to assassinate Iraqi Prime Minister Abd al-Karim Qasim. (United Press International)
A Tyrant Forty Years in the Making (March 14, 2003)
Roger Morris writes of the "regime change" carried out by the CIA in Iraq forty years ago. Among the CIA's actions were attempted political assassinations and the handing over of a list of suspected communists and leftists that led to the deaths of thousands of Iraqis at the hands of Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath Party. (New York Times)
CIA Lists Provide Basis for Iraqi Bloodbath
In this excerpt from his classic study of Iraqi politics, Hanna Batatu discusses how the Ba`ath Party seized power for the first time in a military coup in February 1963. He speaks of lists, provided by US intelligence, that enabled the party to hunt down its enemies, particularly the Communists, in a terrible bloodletting.
US and British Support for Saddam in the 1970s and 1980s


The Riegle Report (1994)
This report by the Senate Banking Committee analyzes the US's exports of warfare-related goods to Iraq and their possible impact on the health consequences of the Gulf War. The report concludes that the US provided Iraq "with 'dual-use' licensed materials which assisted in the development of Iraqi chemical, biological and missile-system programs." (Gulflink)
Officers Say US Aided Iraq in War Despite Use of Gas (August 18, 2002)
According to senior military officials, a covert program carried out during the Reagan Administration provided Iraq with critical battle planning assistance at a time when US intelligence agencies knew that Iraqi commanders would employ chemical weapons against Iran. (New York Times)

Did Saddam Die for Our Sins? (January 9, 2007)
The US-backed Iraq Tribunal sentenced Saddam Hussein to death for his role in the 1982 massacre of nearly 150 Shiites in Dujail, Iraq. But the same court has dropped all charges against Hussein, post mortem, for the killing of 180,000 Kurds during the 1980s – crimes committed with Western complicity. The author of this TomPaine piece concludes that if the tribunal does not look into US and British involvement in the genocide case, it will fail "to educate the world about Saddam and his barbarous regime."
This Was a Guilty Verdict on America "
Click to expand...

Hey, look....

Nothing showing it was US provided precursors that led to the gassing of the Kurds.

Not surprising.
 
RetiredUSN said:
Individual freedoms has nothing to do with conservative or liberal labels.

Yes.......he's calling the middle east out for what it really is.....especially Iran.
Click to expand...

But, of course, reality dictates they do have to do with that.

Saudi Arabia has been one of the most conservative countries with the most conservatives policies since it came into existence. It's also one of the least free.

To deny that is to deny reality.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
Arab spring was a demcrat party supported disaster, most all countries became more brutal, oppressive muslim regiemes.
Click to expand...

Please read the article and respond to it. What is happening in Saudi Arabia is rather different than places like Egypt, Libya and Syria where AQ and ISIS exploited revolutionary freedom fighters and usurped their command. In Saudi Arabia this is a top down push for moderation in Saudi culture. The Saudi leadership is emancipating the citizenry, not increasing oppression. That is not fertile ground for a typical ISIS or AQ insurgency.

Though, if we want to equate it to any of those regions it is most closely resembling the power structure in Egypt, where the real power in the country is becoming largely Americanized, and resistant to Islamic radicalism. In Egypt it was largely the Americanization of the military that acted as the antibodies for radical infection, in Saudi Arabia the westernization has finally reached the throne.
 
Last edited:
Grand Mal said:
That's the pattern, that's the phony 'Arab Spring'- depose a secular tyrant and one election later you have a theocratic tyranny.
Click to expand...

That's false.

All three governments that were overthrown during the Arab Spring presented new constitutions. All guaranteed democratic election cycles, freedom of religion, and the freedom of the press.

- Libya: In the Preamble, the constitution opens with the customary slogan, “In The Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate.” However Article (1) declares that “Libya shall be an independent democratic state in which the people shall be the source of all powers.” The document also declares that “Islam shall be its religion and Islamic Sharia shall be the main source of legislation.” A note of interest here is that Nordic states, Iceland, Scotland, and even England still have official state religions. However, Article (1) also guarantees “for non-Muslims the freedom to practice their religious rituals.” Article (4) established the core of a democratic system “with the aim of realizing the peaceful democratic alternation in power.”

- Egypt: The amended Egyptian Constitution of 2014 is heavy in Islamic terminology, but this was always the case because the former Egyptian leaders had presented themselves as a part of the Islamic fabric. Though the Preamble begins with the customary Islamic line of “In the Name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful,” Article 4 states that “sovereignty belongs to the people alone.” Though Article 2 declares that “Islam is the religion of the state,” Article 3 assures that “the principles of the laws of Egyptian Christian and Jews are the main source of laws regulating their personal status, religious affairs, and selection of spiritual leaders.” Ultimately, the Egyptian constitution calls for the transfer of power in a liberal democratic system that enforces religious, gender, and minority equality.

- Tunisia: The Tunisian Constitution of 2014 is very limited in its use of Islamic vernacular. It, of course, does first express the traditional Islamic opening of “In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.” However, Article 3 expresses that “the people are sovereign and the source of authority.” Article 1 established Islam as the state religion; however, Article 6 also established the freedom of belief and the “free exercise of religious practices.” Virtually the entire document is centered on liberal democracy and civil rights.


We can compare these constitutions with Iran's constitution and clearly see that one is theocratic (after overthrowing a secular tyrant) and the others are absolutely not (after overthrowing three secular tyrants). If you wish to argue about Egypt's 2012 election...

Egyptians demanded proper democratic elections, better economic opportunities, and an end to religious persecution before Hosni Mubarak (1928- ) stepped down in early 2012. This led to the free election of either the Muslim Brotherhood’s Mohamed Morsi (1951- ) or one of Mubarak's own. They erred on the side of Morsi, who moved towards the Islamization of the state as the economy continued to decline and further uprisings ensued. After new public protests against Islamism, the reordering of society and governments in accordance to Sharia (Sacred law), the Egyptian military removed Morsi and held another presidential election in 2013. Time will tell if this coup preserves democracy or simply ushers in further autocracy in Egypt. But either way, Egyptians were and are not looking for theocracy.

This is a process. I don't know why people can't see that after the French Revolution, the French later welcomed Napoleon, a dictator and self-proclaimed emperor. In fact, it took until after World War II and Vichy France for the French to get democracy right. Even the U.S., after it's revolution, had to fight a civil war, to not only define a unified ideology, but allow democracy to all its citizens. Then, one hundred years later, had to march for civil rights where the result was the Voter's Right Act. But when it comes to the Middle East, people expect democracy to spring forth over the snap of a finger.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom