Outrage Over Israel Ignores Much Worse Outrages Against Other Muslims [W:54]

RabidAlpaca · Oct 30, 2017

HowardBThiname said:
I don't know why this is so difficult for you. Israel's borders have NOT increased since 1967.
Yes, there have been settlements but those settlements have been WITHIN the 67 borders.
The propaganda that you keep hearing is that Israel is taking more land. That is untrue. The land was taken in 67, and was taken as a result of Arabs amassing on the borders.
If you look carefully at the third and forth maps in the sequence you posted, you'll see that the third map ends in 1967. That was right before the war. The last map should have been titled 1967-2012 because nothing changed in that time. The lines have been the same since 67.
What you keep calling "Palestinian land" is the land within those borders. It is not Palestinian land. It is Israeli land.
The propaganda wants you to believe Israel should not have that land -- so they call it "disputed" but the borders have not changed since 67.
I will take you at your word that you don't see races or religions, but this situation is about both race and religion so we have to look at the parties involved.
Let's clear one thing up -- I'm an atheist -- I have no religious alliance to any belief system. That does not mean I'm unable to sympathize with religious cultures that are being attacked.
The Arab Muslims are attacking Israel solely because Jews are there. It's in Hamas' Charter after all. Israel, on the other hand, is not attacking Gazans because they're Muslim. Israel attacks in response to being attacked.
Surely, you can see what's going on there?
Again, you're wrong. You're using the word "Palestinians" on an emotional basis. I'm trying to be factual. Leadership in the West Bank is working with Israel. Leadership in Gaza is not. When you try to falsely group those two together by lumping them all under the "Palestinian" label, you're confusing the situation.
You have failed to address the points I made about the election of Hamas. You've failed to address the points about who starts the "incidents." You've failed to address the points about Egypt being the one who controls the Rafah crossing. I really don't think you're reading my posts at all.

Your argument is then based entirely on a completely false premise. There are a metric **** ton of Israeli settlements PAST the 1967 border nicknamed "the Green Line" which you can see on the following map:

The blue markings are Israeli settlements, and the white shaded areas are EXCLUSIVE ISRAELI CONTROL. With Israeli settlements comes IDF troops to protect those settlements. Walls are constructed and checkpoints are enforced. The Palestinians are literally confined to little islands in their country surrounded by Israeli fences that continue to contract. They have to go through Israeli checkpoints just to move around their country. Please inform yourself about reality and history before you take such strong positions on things.

I'm also an atheist, which is why I see this conflict as two warring desert tribes who have both committed uncountable atrocities. What you seem to be doing is labeling all Palestinians as Hamas or terrorists bent on the destruction of Israel. That is false. Most Palestinians are just regular people like you and me that don't deserve to be fenced in in their own country by people gobbling up their land and petitioning the world not to recognize their existence. I'd like to see both peoples have their own countries, but that is impossible when BOTH sides are actively sabotaging a two state solution.

JBG said:
The part of my post to which you are responding concerns the Arabs' non-recognition of the 1947 U.N. Partition lines or the so-called 1949-67 borders, which were an Armistice line after they lost the 1948 War and the effort to eradicate Israel.

The Israelis have not confined themselves to the 1967 borders, they are actively taking more and more Palestinian lands for themselves.

Apocalypse said:
What are the "Palestinian borders"? Have you created a two-states solution already? What?

SNIP

You lied and promoted a propaganda piece denying history. You've shown the entire land of Mandate Palestine as Arab-Palestinian as if the Jews back then were not Palestinian citizens just like the Arabs were and as if the entire land was Arab aside of the land held privately by Jews. That's horrible. When you were confronted you couldn't say a word to defend it and you haven't taken back your claims either.

Until you're willing to admit that most Palestinian civilians are nice, regular people that have every right to a country as you, I'll pass on addressing any of your ethnically charged nonsense.

Apocalypse · Oct 30, 2017

RabidAlpaca said:
Your argument is then based entirely on a completely false premise. There are a metric **** ton of Israeli settlements PAST the 1967 border nicknamed "the Green Line" which you can see on the following map

Where did I say there aren't? I said they aren't annexed. Israel hasn't annexed them and they're not part of its territory.
Understanding what people say to you will save you all the time you waste making those pointless arguments.

I'm also an atheist, which is why I see this conflict as two warring desert tribes who have both committed uncountable atrocities. What you seem to be doing is labeling all Palestinians as Hamas or terrorists bent on the destruction of Israel. That is false. Most Palestinians are just regular people like you and me that don't deserve to be fenced in in their own country

Again, no one said otherwise. What was said is that the danger of terror attacks originating from the Palestinian Muslim community against Jews is real - as anyone who's been around on planet Earth for the last century can tell.
The security fence and the checkpoints prevent terror attacks. They saved countless of innocent human lives. Before the security fence was built, for example, there were countless of suicide bombing attacks. Since it was built there were barely two or three. They're vital for the security of Israelis and will continue until there is an alternative solution. Calling for their removal without any alternative solution is simply calling for the murder of Jews. The Palestinians have the right to move freely without wasting time at checkpoints, but other human beings who aren't Palestinians also have the right to be alive, and that right is more important. Far more important.

Until you're willing to admit that most Palestinian civilians are nice, regular people that have every right to a country as you, I'll pass on addressing any of your ethnically charged nonsense.

Until you'll stop promoting lies and ignorance on a subject that you only speak so passionately of because of the involvement of Jews I won't stop confronting your lies and debunking them.

RabidAlpaca · Oct 30, 2017

Apocalypse said:
Where did I say there aren't? I said they aren't annexed. Israel hasn't annexed them and they're not part of its territory.
Understanding what people say to you will save you all the time you waste making those pointless arguments.

Again, no one said otherwise. What was said is that the danger of terror attacks originating from the Palestinian Muslim community against Jews is real - as anyone who's been around on planet Earth for the last century can tell.
The security fence and the checkpoints prevent terror attacks. They saved countless of innocent human lives. Before the security fence was built, for example, there were countless of suicide bombing attacks. Since it was built there were barely two or three. They're vital for the security of Israelis and will continue until there is an alternative solution. Calling for their removal without any alternative solution is simply calling for the murder of Jews. The Palestinians have the right to move freely without wasting time at checkpoints, but other human beings who aren't Palestinians also have the right to be alive, and that right is more important. Far more important.

Until you'll stop promoting lies and ignorance on a subject that you only speak so passionately of because of the involvement of Jews I won't stop confronting your lies and debunking them.

Lol, chastising me about what you did and didn't say when I wasn't even talk to you. Learn to read and respect your neighbors and you might get a response.

Apocalypse · Oct 30, 2017

RabidAlpaca said:
Lol, chastising me about what you did and didn't say when I wasn't even talk to you. Learn to read and respect your neighbors and you might get a response.

Learn to refer to what people say.
Learn to stop promoting lies against a people you take issues with who make less than 0.2% of the world.
Learn to read and educate yourself on a subject before engaging it so passionately from a point of pure ignorance.

JBG · Oct 30, 2017

RabidAlpaca said:
Your argument is then based entirely on a completely false premise. There are a metric **** ton of Israeli settlements PAST the 1967 border nicknamed "the Green Line" which you can see on the following map:

The blue markings are Israeli settlements, and the white shaded areas are EXCLUSIVE ISRAELI CONTROL. With Israeli settlements comes IDF troops to protect those settlements. Walls are constructed and checkpoints are enforced. The Palestinians are literally confined to little islands in their country surrounded by Israeli fences that continue to contract. They have to go through Israeli checkpoints just to move around their country. Please inform yourself about reality and history before you take such strong positions on things....The Israelis have not confined themselves to the 1967 borders, they are actively taking more and more Palestinian lands for themselves.

If the Arabs would stop the warfare and terror campaigns then there would be no need for checkpoints and a lot of the Israeli zone could and would be surrendered. The problem is that the Arabs'/Palestinians' war continues. Israel will not stand down until the war stops.

RabidAlpaca said:
I'm also an atheist, which is why I see this conflict as two warring desert tribes who have both committed uncountable atrocities. What you seem to be doing is labeling all Palestinians as Hamas or terrorists bent on the destruction of Israel. That is false. Most Palestinians are just regular people like you and me that don't deserve to be fenced in in their own country by people gobbling up their land and petitioning the world not to recognize their existence. I'd like to see both peoples have their own countries, but that is impossible when BOTH sides are actively sabotaging a two state solution.

There is no equivalence of Israeli self-defense and collateral damage and Arab/Palestinian atrocities. The use of civilians as human shields in routine, especially in Gaza. The Israelis need to be able to target missile launchers, even if placed on the roofs of hospitals, schools, apartment buildings and other human structures.

RabidAlpaca said:
Until you're willing to admit that most Palestinian civilians are nice, regular people

Full stop, that's fine.

RabidAlpaca said:
...that have every right to a country as you, I'll pass on addressing any of your ethnically charged nonsense.

As pointed out above by myself and other posters, the Arabs rejected the 1947 U.N. Partition lines (by far the most generous to them), the 1949 armistice lines from the end of the 1948 War (the so-called pre-1967 borders or the Green Line), and all of Bill Clinton's and George W. Bush's proposals. You can call the current offers as being "skewed" towards Israel; that is what happens when you lose a war and reject other peace terms. The terms don't get better.

HowardBThiname · Oct 30, 2017

RabidAlpaca said:
Your argument is then based entirely on a completely false premise. There are a metric **** ton of Israeli settlements PAST the 1967 border nicknamed "the Green Line" which you can see on the following map:

You're still not reading your map incorrectly. The Green Line is the PRE-67 borders, it does not represent the borders since the 67 war. That is clearly listed on your map.

The blue markings are Israeli settlements, and the white shaded areas are EXCLUSIVE ISRAELI CONTROL. With Israeli settlements comes IDF troops to protect those settlements. Walls are constructed and checkpoints are enforced. The Palestinians are literally confined to little islands in their country surrounded by Israeli fences that continue to contract. They have to go through Israeli checkpoints just to move around their country. Please inform yourself about reality and history before you take such strong positions on things.

If your map showed the POST-67 border, which is actually shown on map 4 of your earlier maps, you'd see those settlements are within it.

I'm also an atheist, which is why I see this conflict as two warring desert tribes who have both committed uncountable atrocities. What you seem to be doing is labeling all Palestinians as Hamas or terrorists bent on the destruction of Israel. That is false. Most Palestinians are just regular people like you and me that don't deserve to be fenced in in their own country by people gobbling up their land and petitioning the world not to recognize their existence. I'd like to see both peoples have their own countries, but that is impossible when BOTH sides are actively sabotaging a two state solution.

I specifically asked you to separate out the Gazans to keep from labeling all Palestinians as Hamas or terrorists. I specifically told you they were different in terms of the way they deal with Israel. When you insist on lumping them all together, you're the one who's painting them all with the same wide brush.

Hamas influence is very strong in Gaza - that's where the majority of the problem lies. Hamas fires rockets from schools (an international war crime) and then holds up the torn bodies of children when Israel fires back to the rocket-launch location (justified by international law).

The Israelis have not confined themselves to the 1967 borders, they are actively taking more and more Palestinian lands for themselves.

No. See above.

Until you're willing to admit that most Palestinian civilians are nice, regular people that have every right to a country as you, I'll pass on addressing any of your ethnically charged nonsense.

I'm sure there are some very nice Palestinians, but it's up to them to raise a new generation that doesn't thrive on hate or reward the families of children who die as martyrs.

Golda Meir nailed it when she said: "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us."

Red_Dave · Oct 30, 2017

JBG said:
Lots of U.N. money pours into these countries. Do you think there are any enforced conditions? What is the money used for?

Myanmar - Sanctions Wiki

Also I wasnt talking about the UN, I was talking about the Western world in general. And there is a clear difference as the U.S is restricting its interaction with Myanmar and actively aiding Israel.

ido_ · Nov 2, 2017

RabidAlpaca said:
Yes, I'm saying land wise. Israeli territory grows every year. No, it is not confined to the 1967 borders as Israeli settlers both legal and illegal continue to settle more and more Palestinian land. Official borders are ignored and effectively Israeli settlers and soldiers have control over lots of officially Palestinian land.

The ultimate goal for many Israelis is a completely unified Israel with no Palestinian land. As of now Palestine is a bunch of tiny islands surrounded by fences and Israeli soldiers that get closer and closer as time goes on. To look at the tiny group of isolated patches of land the Israelis have confined the Palestinians to and claim they're not be oppressed and can have a country if they want it is nonsensical. Palestinians can't even move freely within their own country without going through Israeli checkpoints.

And no, I don't think all Americans should move onto Native American land just so they can grab it from them, that would be acting like Israel.

The definition of what a Jew is and isn't is completely and totally arbitrary. We're all a mix of dozens of different things, to fish out one thing and pretend that represents your entire lineage is silly. I have a lot of Scottish heritage, but I'm not going to go back to Scottland, claim citizenship there and then set up shop on someone's land pretending it's my birth right. Racial / ancestral ownership of land is nonsense. We're all just people who start with a blank slate, we're not our race or who we were born to.

I've already stated I support the existence of Israel fully. I went there recently on a business trip and had a great time, enjoyed the food and the people were super hospitable. That however has nothing to do with the state of Palestine, who also has a right to exist. Palestinians have more than their share of blame in this conflict, but I'm not going to pretend the Israelis are innocent. Both sides don't recognize each other's humanity or right to exist and they need to stop.

source:
The Mendacious Maps of Palestinian ?Loss? - The Tower

EDIT:
more on the fabulous animation you attached.
"1st jewish settlements" - or would you rather mean zionist settlements (cuz 1st Jewish settlement is going way back to 2000BC) were in the 19th century and not in 1946, in 1946 Tel-Aviv was a full grown city (so the 1917 all "Palestinian" map is already a lie).
"2014 Israel attacks gaza" - it seems that Israel is controling parts of Gaza strip since 2014, thats nice to know...

seriously, cant you guys make enough claims without resulting to the same method of spreading lies (ahem ahem - elders of zion protocols) in order to demonize Israel?
I'm guessing this is exactly what the OP tried to claim in the first place.

Outrage Over Israel Ignores Much Worse Outrages Against Other Muslims [W:54]

RabidAlpaca

Engineer

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!

RabidAlpaca

Engineer

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!

JBG

HowardBThiname

Red_Dave

Libertarian socialist

ido_