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Outrage Over Israel Ignores Much Worse Outrages Against Other Muslims [W:54]

RabidAlpaca said:
You'll put any person on the planet with a Jewish grandparent ahead of any of the non-Jews that were born and raised a few km down the road. This is the definition of blatant racism. Stop making everything about race and statt being a compassionate human being. I suspect you're not capable of that.
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You keep saying stuff that is completely meaningless and baseless it's becoming hysterical.
Might as well accuse me of following Nazism again like you've done last time. :lol:
 
joG said:
Ethnicity might be more appropriate.
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Yeah. He has already compared it with "White people" which shows how great his ignorance is.

A people are a group of individuals united by a shared history, a shared language, a shared homeland, etc.
White is just the color of your skin.

There's nothing wrong with nationhood, that's how the world works. Japan was formed by the Japanese people, the Netherlands by the Dutch and Israel by the Jews, yet he is freaked out by the fact that Israel is identified as the homeland of the Jewish people. I wonder why.
 
Apocalypse said:
Yeah. He has already compared it with "White people" which shows how great his ignorance is.

A people are a group of individuals united by a shared history, a shared language, a shared homeland, etc.
White is just the color of your skin.

There's nothing wrong with nationhood, that's how the world works. Japan was formed by the Japanese people, the Netherlands by the Dutch and Israel by the Jews, yet he is freaked out by the fact that Israel is identified as the homeland of the Jewish people. I wonder why.
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Japan and the Netherlands don't grant citizenship based on having a Japanese or Dutch grandparent somewhere back when, nor do they steal their neighbors' land year by year while pretending they're not a real country.

A Jew in the US and a Jew in Ukraine immigrating to Israel only share a common race, not a history, language, or homeland. Race is completely arbitrary and so are your racist positions against Arabs.
 
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RabidAlpaca said:
Japan and the Netherlands don't grant citizenship based on having a Japanese or Dutch grandparent somewhere back when, nor do they steal their neighbors' land year by year while pretending they're not a real country.

A Jew in the US and a Jew in Ukraine immigrating to Israel only share a common race, not a history, language, or homeland. Race is completely arbitrary and so are your racist positions against Arabs.
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You don't get to decide who a state grants citizenship to. You can be a member of the Jewish people without being Jewish in your ethnicity (that alone obliterates your claims here) and in fact many of the people who have this law applied to them aren't Jewish in their ethnicity but only in their religion, and even more amazingly many of them are neither Jewish in their ethnicity nor in their religion. For example someone who has converted into Judaism is part of the Jewish people - her son let's say is Christian, and so is his own son. That grandson can (and does) apply for citizenship and he's neither Jewish in his religion nor in his ethnicity.

I know, you're ignorant of every tiny detail. I know, you wish to discuss it anyway. But I'll call it out the way I see it. I'll call the reason the way I see it.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Japan and the Netherlands don't grant citizenship based on having a Japanese or Dutch grandparent somewhere back when, nor do they steal their neighbors' land year by year while pretending they're not a real country.

A Jew in the US and a Jew in Ukraine immigrating to Israel only share a common race, not a history, language, or homeland. Race is completely arbitrary and so are your racist positions against Arabs.
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There are European countries that consider the nationality of grandparents important to aquiring citizenship.
Jews do consider themselves to share the same relevant history and homeland, do share a consistent herritage and ritual language and religion. I'm not sure, what you mean by race, but since it largely requires a Jewish mother for the offspring to be Jews, there is great consistency in this respect.
This is all an interesting phenomenon, I think.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
So you still can't explain why Israel grows every year and Palestine shrinks, so you got back to shouting ANTI-SEMITE!
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When you say that -- what do you mean? Land wise? Because Israel has not taken any additional land since the 6-Day War, and that was only to push back the Arabs amassed on the borders. Retention of that land by Israel was valid. Those ARE the borders of Israel now. They have been for decades and Israel has had no need to push farther, so why do you keep saying that they're growing while Palestine is shrinking?

And, when you refer to Palestine, could you split Gaza out? Because Gaza can't get along with the rest of what you're calling Palestine, while Israel has been successfully dealing with the West Bank and Golan Heights. At this point in time, it's really the Gazans that are causing all the trouble. Hamas is still deep in Gaza.

You've abandoned your basic humanity for your desire of a racially Jewish majority. In your eyes Palestinians don't deserve to exist and don't deserve the very land under their feet. I see both Israelis and Palestinians as equals and my positions are consistent for both. Your position is racially oriented towards Jews so you're the actual racist here. Learn to live in peace and respect the humanity of your neighbors.
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From your posts here, I don't believe you do, because you've not addressed what's causing the entire problem -- *some* Arabs refuse to accept any deal that recognizes Israel as a state. All trouble stems from that. They want Israel gone because they want the Jews gone.

You have not addressed how much better Muslims who live in Israel have it than Jews who dare wander into Gaza.

Your entire diatribe has been to condemn Israel, although it only responds to attacks, and not condemn the attacks, themselves. I've heard nothing from you about Gazans using children as human shields. You keep saying Israel is taking more land, but that's not true.

From you, I've heard a repeat of propaganda that's not honest and it steeped in racism at its foundation. I don't know if you're racist, but when a minority (Jews) wants a safe place to live after being horrifically persecuted, to deny them that seems very racist to me.

Would you also suggest that all Americans should be able to move onto Native American reservation land and force the tribes to share it with them?
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Japan and the Netherlands don't grant citizenship based on having a Japanese or Dutch grandparent somewhere back when, nor do they steal their neighbors' land year by year while pretending they're not a real country.

A Jew in the US and a Jew in Ukraine immigrating to Israel only share a common race, not a history, language, or homeland. Race is completely arbitrary and so are your racist positions against Arabs.
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Jews aren't really a "race." They have a patronage, sure, but they're more a religious group, which is why they've been persecuted for two millennia.

Because, their ancestors have consistently been run out of other countries and treated poorly, and dangerously, they've been wanting a place where they could be safe. What is wrong with that? Muslim nations don't want them and don't treat them well, in general, so would they not prefer to be somewhere they're safe?

Why insist that when the world finally takes steps to keep Jewish people safe that we not allow them to have that protection?

Yes, we send funds to Israel, but mostly because it's a strategic alliance for us to have in the Middle East. And Israel responds in kind. They consistently share medical and scientific research and they turn out Nobel Prize winners in the sciences virtually every year. The whole world benefits from what comes out of Israel.

Israel has every right to gather Jews and bring them into their state. There is absolutely no reason for them to also invite the very people who want to murder them. Doing that would be a death sentence for Israel, so I don't understand why you promote that. I really don't.
 
HowardBThiname said:
When you say that -- what do you mean? Land wise? Because Israel has not taken any additional land since the 6-Day War, and that was only to push back the Arabs amassed on the borders. Retention of that land by Israel was valid. Those ARE the borders of Israel now. They have been for decades and Israel has had no need to push farther, so why do you keep saying that they're growing while Palestine is shrinking?
And, when you refer to Palestine, could you split Gaza out? Because Gaza can't get along with the rest of what you're calling Palestine, while Israel has been successfully dealing with the West Bank and Golan Heights. At this point in time, it's really the Gazans that are causing all the trouble. Hamas is still deep in Gaza.
.
You have not addressed how much better Muslims who live in Israel have it than Jews who dare wander into Gaza.
Your entire diatribe has been to condemn Israel, although it only responds to attacks, and not condemn the attacks, themselves. I've heard nothing from you about Gazans using children as human shields. You keep saying Israel is taking more land, but that's not true.
From you, I've heard a repeat of propaganda that's not honest and it steeped in racism at its foundation. I don't know if you're racist, but when a minority (Jews) wants a safe place to live after being horrifically persecuted, to deny them that seems very racist to me.
Would you also suggest that all Americans should be able to move onto Native American reservation land and force the tribes to share it with them?
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Yes, I'm saying land wise. Israeli territory grows every year. No, it is not confined to the 1967 borders as Israeli settlers both legal and illegal continue to settle more and more Palestinian land. Official borders are ignored and effectively Israeli settlers and soldiers have control over lots of officially Palestinian land.

palestine.gif

Loss+of+Land+Palestine+Israel_2000.gif


The ultimate goal for many Israelis is a completely unified Israel with no Palestinian land. As of now Palestine is a bunch of tiny islands surrounded by fences and Israeli soldiers that get closer and closer as time goes on. To look at the tiny group of isolated patches of land the Israelis have confined the Palestinians to and claim they're not be oppressed and can have a country if they want it is nonsensical. Palestinians can't even move freely within their own country without going through Israeli checkpoints.

And no, I don't think all Americans should move onto Native American land just so they can grab it from them, that would be acting like Israel.

HowardBThiname said:
Jews aren't really a "race." They have a patronage, sure, but they're more a religious group, which is why they've been persecuted for two millennia.
Because, their ancestors have consistently been run out of other countries and treated poorly, and dangerously, they've been wanting a place where they could be safe. What is wrong with that? Muslim nations don't want them and don't treat them well, in general, so would they not prefer to be somewhere they're safe?
Why insist that when the world finally takes steps to keep Jewish people safe that we not allow them to have that protection?
Israel has every right to gather Jews and bring them into their state. There is absolutely no reason for them to also invite the very people who want to murder them. Doing that would be a death sentence for Israel, so I don't understand why you promote that. I really don't.
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The definition of what a Jew is and isn't is completely and totally arbitrary. We're all a mix of dozens of different things, to fish out one thing and pretend that represents your entire lineage is silly. I have a lot of Scottish heritage, but I'm not going to go back to Scottland, claim citizenship there and then set up shop on someone's land pretending it's my birth right. Racial / ancestral ownership of land is nonsense. We're all just people who start with a blank slate, we're not our race or who we were born to.

I've already stated I support the existence of Israel fully. I went there recently on a business trip and had a great time, enjoyed the food and the people were super hospitable. That however has nothing to do with the state of Palestine, who also has a right to exist. Palestinians have more than their share of blame in this conflict, but I'm not going to pretend the Israelis are innocent. Both sides don't recognize each other's humanity or right to exist and they need to stop.
 
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RabidAlpaca said:
Yes, I'm saying land wise. Israeli territory grows every year. No, it is not confined to the 1967 borders as Israeli settlers both legal and illegal continue to settle more and more Palestinian land. Official borders are ignored and effectively Israeli settlers and soldiers have control over lots of officially Palestinian land.
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These images are a known part of the anti-Israeli propaganda campaign.
You've either taken them from google images after looking specifically for this (instead of just looking for the truth) or from an anti-Israeli propagnda website that you frequent, I bet on the former.

The first picture implies that the land in green belonged back in 1945 to the people who are today's Palestinians. That's a lie as it did not. The land in green is simply the land that Jewish people didn't own privately in Mandate Palestine. The majority of it was state land the British had controlled. That was not theirs as well, but it wasn't belonging back then to some "Palestine" state as you're implying here.

The images are implying that then in 1947 when the Partition Plan was made this "Palestine" had lost its lands from 1945 to the Jews. That is outright lying, again. That's just rewriting history the way the anti-Israeli propaganda sees fit, but you can use Wikipedia to learn yourself that you've just taken part in spreading lies that deny history.

You didn't take care to learn the truth about the conflict. You just go on Google and search for anything that will justify your positions even if it's nonsensical propaganda images.

Remember - we never show complete ignorance on subjects that we are geniunly interested in.
 
Here's an opinion piece discussing the well known propaganda posted above called "the disappearing Palestine" which is an important part of the anti-Israeli propaganda campaign to rewrite history:

The first map was drawn according to the following bizarre criterion: green is anything that isn't yellow, or anywhere Jews don't live is by definition "Palestinian territory." We need to note three things here: first, there is no acceptable map legend for "no Jews here." Second, if the rest of the maps would follow this logic, then they should have still had lots of green. More Arabs live today in Israel, across wide stretches of territory, than in all of "Palestine" in 1946—and you get double that number if you look at Jerusalem and the West Bank. Third, in what way is territory without Jews "Palestinian"? The sovereign ruler of the land was British in 1946, before that—Ottoman. There was never a Palestinian land in the sovereign-national sense.

2. The second map was drawn according to the following criteria: a theoretical proposal for political-national sovereignty, without reference to the reality on the ground. This is the UN Partition Plan—a proposal which was never actually implemented. Why? Because the Palestinians rejected it and launched a bloody assault on the Jewish community instead. Map no. 2 is thus a political and theoretical one; it has no bearing on land actually owned or ruled by the Palestinians.

3. Meanwhile, map no. 3 was drafted according to the following logic: anything not under Israeli political sovereignty is green. The map represents the results of the Israeli War of Independence (known also as the 1948 War); it has nothing to do with "Palestinian territory" because the green land—the West Bank and Gaza—was under Jordanian and Egyptian political control, respectively, from 1949 until 1967. There was no Palestinian sovereignty or political control in either of these two territories.

4. And here we come to the map missing from the series: the results of the Six Day War. According to the criterion of sovereign-national control of territory, the entire map should have been yellow (that is: under Israeli control). But of course our campaigner chose not to use such a map, since it would have reversed the trend of shrinking green in the next one, showing that as opposed to much of the period after 1967, today the Palestinians have sovereign territory. This would also mean that Israel would be the first country in history to give Palestinians such political control.

5. The last map, the one which displays the current situation, displays sovereign Palestinian territory in green, and sovereign Israeli territory in yellow. This is a partial expression of the Oslo accords, and it is the only map in which the concept of sovereign "Palestinian territory" is actually relevant.
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The Palestinian Propaganda That Ran Round the World - Mida
 
Apocalypse said:
These images are a known part of the anti-Israeli propaganda campaign.
You've either taken them from google images after looking specifically for this (instead of just looking for the truth) or from an anti-Israeli propagnda website that you frequent, I bet on the former.

The first picture implies that the land in green belonged back in 1945 to the people who are today's Palestinians. That's a lie as it did not. The land in green is simply the land that Jewish people didn't own privately in Mandate Palestine. The majority of it was state land the British had controlled. That was not theirs as well, but it wasn't belonging back then to some "Palestine" state as you're implying here.

The images are implying that then in 1947 when the Partition Plan was made this "Palestine" had lost its lands from 1945 to the Jews. That is outright lying, again. That's just rewriting history the way the anti-Israeli propaganda sees fit, but you can use Wikipedia to learn yourself that you've just taken part in spreading lies that deny history.

You didn't take care to learn the truth about the conflict. You just go on Google and search for anything that will justify your positions even if it's nonsensical propaganda images.

Remember - we never show complete ignorance on subjects that we are geniunly interested in.
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Yes I know, you've already made it painfully clear you don't think the Palestinian people own ANY land at all and thus it's all free for you to gobble up. You don't need to reiterate this terrible position, we know.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Yes I know, you've already made it painfully clear you don't think the Palestinian people own ANY land at all and thus it's all free for you to gobble up. You don't need to reiterate this terrible position, we know.
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It doesn't have anything to do with me or you. It was a denial of history that you've promoted. Do you not care about spreading lies? Promoting the rewriting of history? Does it not concern you at all?
 
Apocalypse said:
It doesn't have anything to do with me or you. It was a denial of history that you've promoted. Do you not care about spreading lies? Promoting the rewriting of history? Does it not concern you at all?
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And you don't have any problem denying the reality that Jewish settlers are intentionally settling disputed Palestinian land in order to bolster their claim to it? It was a denial of history that you've promoted. Do you not care about spreading lies? Promoting the rewriting of history? Does it not concern you at all?
 
RabidAlpaca said:
And you don't have any problem denying the reality that Jewish settlers are intentionally settling disputed Palestinian land in order to bolster their claim to it? It was a denial of history that you've promoted. Do you not care about spreading lies? Promoting the rewriting of history? Does it not concern you at all?
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I have never said otherwise and I believe like you do that they do so intentionally to strenghten their claim, it's quite obvious.
You said many other things about me that I haven't actually said but I don't take time to actually address it because it's pointless you're clearly looking for the position that will be the anti-Israeli position and this brings me back to the first post I've made in this thread about the people who do that.

Notice by the way that you've answered a question with a question, that means you recognize your denial of history and you just don't care about it and that's what's so shameful about it all - the moment when one is willing to abandon reality for the sake of promoting a certain "alt-reality".
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Yes, I'm saying land wise. Israeli territory grows every year. No, it is not confined to the 1967 borders as Israeli settlers both legal and illegal continue to settle more and more Palestinian land. Official borders are ignored and effectively Israeli settlers and soldiers have control over lots of officially Palestinian land.
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You're making a huge mistake. Your maps back up exactly what I'm telling you. There has been no expansion of Israel's borders since 67. Look at them carefully and you'll see that.

The ultimate goal for many Israelis is a completely unified Israel with no Palestinian land. As of now Palestine is a bunch of tiny islands surrounded by fences and Israeli soldiers that get closer and closer as time goes on. To look at the tiny group of isolated patches of land the Israelis have confined the Palestinians to and claim they're not be oppressed and can have a country if they want it is nonsensical. Palestinians can't even move freely within their own country without going through Israeli checkpoints.
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No. That's not an ultimate goal. The ultimate goal is for Israel to live in peace with its neighbors, and, it's moving in that direction, but Hamas in Gaza is still causing a lot of problem.

And no, I don't think all Americans should move onto Native American land just so they can grab it from them, that would be acting like Israel.
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Nope, exactly the opposite. You oppose Israel being a Jewish state because they're not inviting others in. The same holds true for reservations here in the US. The Native Americans are not inviting others in. You cannot both condemn Israel for seeking a Jewish state, and still condone Native Americans for wanting their sovereign states.


The definition of what a Jew is and isn't is completely and totally arbitrary. We're all a mix of dozens of different things, to fish out one thing and pretend that represents your entire lineage is silly. I have a lot of Scottish heritage, but I'm not going to go back to Scottland, claim citizenship there and then set up shop on someone's land pretending it's my birth right. Racial / ancestral ownership of land is nonsense. We're all just people who start with a blank slate, we're not our race or who we were born to.
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Then, once again, do you feel the Native Americans have no ancestral right of ownership to the lands allotted to them? You can't have it both ways.

I've already stated I support the existence of Israel fully. I went there recently on a business trip and had a great time, enjoyed the food and the people were super hospitable. That however has nothing to do with the state of Palestine, who also has a right to exist. Palestinians have more than their share of blame in this conflict, but I'm not going to pretend the Israelis are innocent. Both sides don't recognize each other's humanity or right to exist and they need to stop.
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Israel WANTS Palestine (although you're still using the term wrong) to exist. Many deals have been drawn up but two things always hang them up.

1) Palestinians insist on a "right of return" which can never happen because it would be a death sentence to Israel.
2) Palestinians (Gazans) refuse to accept that Israel is a state.​

Hamas, for all intents and purposes, runs Gaza, and Hamas has in its Charter the fact that they will never accept Israel or the Jews.

Your opinions are typical of those I've seen in other liberal groups, but there is no factual evidence to support them, such as the mistake you made about Israel's borders.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
And you don't have any problem denying the reality that Jewish settlers are intentionally settling disputed Palestinian land in order to bolster their claim to it? It was a denial of history that you've promoted. Do you not care about spreading lies? Promoting the rewriting of history? Does it not concern you at all?
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Again -- the borders have NOT changed since the war in 67, and Israel was valid in taking the land at that point.

Israel actually did try to give some back in 2005 to Gaza and you know what happened -- Gazans responded by electing a terrorist organization to rule them.

Your own maps prove you wrong.
 
JBG said:
College campuses are rife with organizations such as National Students for Justice in Palestine, author of the movement for Boycott Divestment and Sanctions. The mass media, with alarming regularity publishes serious criticisms of Israel. The European Union, the successor to countries where six million Jews went up smokestacks has a partial boycott of Israel. All of it stems, allegedly, from the "Occupied Territories." When pressed these people will concede that they consider pre-1967 War Israel to be "occupied" as well. What exactly is Israel's crime; retaliating for deadly knifings, car rammings and other suicide attacks.

Travel 3/4 of the way east on the Asia continent to Myanmar, formerly Burma. The Rohingyas (link) are the subject of repeated massacres and rapes at the hand of the Buddhist population. Has anyone heard of this? UN Watch (link) has but nothing mainstream. Where are the campus demonstrations against Myanmar's atrocities? The Rohingyas are ever bit as Muslim as the Palestinians, perhaps more so.

Could the selective outrage in the West be anti-Judaism in new bottles? I think so.
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On a different forum I have certainly made my position clear re the genocide against the Rohingyas. There like I have read here, people like to blame them for their genocide - don't know if it is as bad here but even blaming pre pubescent girls for being raped or babies killed simply because they are Muslim. Thankfully there is nothing like the hatred towards Jews that there is towards Muslims at this current time.

You mention other things here but I think they are mentioned later on so will no doubt come to them later.
 
Apocalypse said:
Yeah. He has already compared it with "White people" which shows how great his ignorance is.

A people are a group of individuals united by a shared history, a shared language, a shared homeland, etc.
White is just the color of your skin.

There's nothing wrong with nationhood, that's how the world works. Japan was formed by the Japanese people, the Netherlands by the Dutch and Israel by the Jews, yet he is freaked out by the fact that Israel is identified as the homeland of the Jewish people. I wonder why.
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For many anti-Semites Israel is "white" and everyone else "brown" and thus the target of racism.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Yes, I'm saying land wise. Israeli territory grows every year. No, it is not confined to the 1967 borders as Israeli settlers both legal and illegal continue to settle more and more Palestinian land. Official borders are ignored and effectively Israeli settlers and soldiers have control over lots of officially Palestinian land.
Click to expand...
The "map" in your post is highly misleading. You do not account for the fact that the "Palestinians" never accepted either the 1947 UN Partition (the Jews did) or the 1948-67 boundaries. In both cases they went to war and lost.

Boo-hoo.
 
HowardBThiname said:
Again -- the borders have NOT changed since the war in 67, and Israel was valid in taking the land at that point.
Israel actually did try to give some back in 2005 to Gaza and you know what happened -- Gazans responded by electing a terrorist organization to rule them.
Your own maps prove you wrong.
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So you're willing to swear right now there are no settlements outside of the 1967 borders and no IDF protecting those settlements or building walls beyond the 1967 Palestinian borders? You're either totally ignorant to facts or you're intentionally trying to mislead with semantics. Settlers both legal and illegal have been crossing the border and settling Palestinian land for decades. With them come IDF soldiers for protection and they wall off the Palestinians into smaller and smaller boxes. Palestinians have little tiny islands surrounded by Israeli fences where they can't even freely move within their own country without going through Israeli checkpoints to get to other cages. If Israel actually did respect the 1967 border and not continue to use settlers to increase their area of influence and territory, peace MIGHT be possible. They however ignore it completely and continue to settle so it's rather obvious why the Palestinians are sour.

JBG said:
The "map" in your post is highly misleading. You do not account for the fact that the "Palestinians" never accepted either the 1947 UN Partition (the Jews did) or the 1948-67 boundaries. In both cases they went to war and lost.

Boo-hoo.
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And while I advocate the basic human rights of both Israelis and Palestinians, many of you advocate for absolute and total Israeli domination over the Palestinians because you're religiously sympathetic to Judaism. I don't base my positions on race or religion, I see all races and religions as equal and thus equally deserving of basic rights and self governance.

JBG said:
The "map" in your post is highly misleading. You do not account for the fact that the "Palestinians" never accepted either the 1947 UN Partition (the Jews did) or the 1948-67 boundaries. In both cases they went to war and lost.

Boo-hoo.
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Yes, literally any image of a map with the word Palestine on it will cause you to begin shouting that they've never been and never will be a country, thus their land is free for the taking.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
So you're willing to swear right now there are no settlements outside of the 1967 borders and no IDF protecting those settlements or building walls beyond the 1967 Palestinian borders?
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What are the "Palestinian borders"? Have you created a two-states solution already? What?

And again you're arguing dishonestly. You're pretty much deliberately ignoring the facts so to create an alternative reality where your anti-Israeli agenda is based. The settlements are not annexed by Israel and are not part of its territory, thus the borders of the state of Israel have not changed. Had Israel annexed them it would be an entirely different thing.

You're either totally ignorant to facts
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You don't get to say that to anyone, you've been arguing here about a subject that you have zero knowledge about as you can tell by comparing every single one of your claims here with actual facts taken from Wikipedia or elsewhere.

or you're intentionally trying to mislead with semantics. Settlers both legal and illegal have been crossing the border and settling Palestinian land for decades. With them come IDF soldiers for protection and they wall off the Palestinians into smaller and smaller boxes. Palestinians have little tiny islands surrounded by Israeli fences where they can't even freely move within their own country without going through Israeli checkpoints to get to other cages.
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Arguing against the security fence and the checkpoints is promoting the murder of innocents. The freedom of movement of person X is far less important than the right to life of person Y no matter what their religion or nationality is and calling for the full freedom of movement of someone to be granted over the right to life of others is horrible, even if those others are Jews. The security fence has saved countless of lives and that's a known and researched fact, and so do the checkpoints.

If Israel actually did respect the 1967 border and not continue to use settlers to increase their area of influence and territory, peace MIGHT be possible. They however ignore it completely and continue to settle so it's rather obvious why the Palestinians are sour.
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The Palestinians have twice been offered almost the entire land of the West Bank (95-98%) and twice have rejected the offer without even entering negotiations about it. You've adopted the Palestinian narrative so hawkishly and extremely that you fail to see the reality on the ground and who prevents them from gaining their own state - it's not Israel.

And while I advocate the basic human rights of both Israelis and Palestinians, many of you advocate for absolute and total Israeli domination over the Palestinians because you're religiously sympathetic to Judaism. I don't base my positions on race or religion, I see all races and religions as equal and thus equally deserving of basic rights and self governance.
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Empty words. And don't assume that people see reality as it is because "they're sympathetic to Judaism", merely because you as you have told had an experience with an Evangelist family supporting Israel because of their beliefs. (And I assume that's why you started having anti-Jewish sentiments but that's just an assumption)

Yes, literally any image of a map with the word Palestine on it will cause you to begin shouting that they've never been and never will be a country, thus their land is free for the taking.
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You lied and promoted a propaganda piece denying history. You've shown the entire land of Mandate Palestine as Arab-Palestinian as if the Jews back then were not Palestinian citizens just like the Arabs were and as if the entire land was Arab aside of the land held privately by Jews. That's horrible. When you were confronted you couldn't say a word to defend it and you haven't taken back your claims either.
 
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RabidAlpaca said:
So you're willing to swear right now there are no settlements outside of the 1967 borders and no IDF protecting those settlements or building walls beyond the 1967 Palestinian borders? You're either totally ignorant to facts or you're intentionally trying to mislead with semantics. Settlers both legal and illegal have been crossing the border and settling Palestinian land for decades. With them come IDF soldiers for protection and they wall off the Palestinians into smaller and smaller boxes. Palestinians have little tiny islands surrounded by Israeli fences where they can't even freely move within their own country without going through Israeli checkpoints to get to other cages. If Israel actually did respect the 1967 border and not continue to use settlers to increase their area of influence and territory, peace MIGHT be possible. They however ignore it completely and continue to settle so it's rather obvious why the Palestinians are sour.
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I don't know why this is so difficult for you. Israel's borders have NOT increased since 1967.

Yes, there have been settlements but those settlements have been WITHIN the 67 borders.

The propaganda that you keep hearing is that Israel is taking more land. That is untrue. The land was taken in 67, and was taken as a result of Arabs amassing on the borders.

If you look carefully at the third and forth maps in the sequence you posted, you'll see that the third map ends in 1967. That was right before the war. The last map should have been titled 1967-2012 because nothing changed in that time. The lines have been the same since 67.

What you keep calling "Palestinian land" is the land within those borders. It is not Palestinian land. It is Israeli land.

The propaganda wants you to believe Israel should not have that land -- so they call it "disputed" but the borders have not changed since 67.

And while I advocate the basic human rights of both Israelis and Palestinians, many of you advocate for absolute and total Israeli domination over the Palestinians because you're religiously sympathetic to Judaism. I don't base my positions on race or religion, I see all races and religions as equal and thus equally deserving of basic rights and self governance.
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I will take you at your word that you don't see races or religions, but this situation is about both race and religion so we have to look at the parties involved.

Let's clear one thing up -- I'm an atheist -- I have no religious alliance to any belief system. That does not mean I'm unable to sympathize with religious cultures that are being attacked.

The Arab Muslims are attacking Israel solely because Jews are there. It's in Hamas' Charter after all. Israel, on the other hand, is not attacking Gazans because they're Muslim. Israel attacks in response to being attacked.

Surely, you can see what's going on there?

Yes, literally any image of a map with the word Palestine on it will cause you to begin shouting that they've never been and never will be a country, thus their land is free for the taking.
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Again, you're wrong. You're using the word "Palestinians" on an emotional basis. I'm trying to be factual. Leadership in the West Bank is working with Israel. Leadership in Gaza is not. When you try to falsely group those two together by lumping them all under the "Palestinian" label, you're confusing the situation.

You have failed to address the points I made about the election of Hamas. You've failed to address the points about who starts the "incidents." You've failed to address the points about Egypt being the one who controls the Rafah crossing. I really don't think you're reading my posts at all.
 
Apocalypse said:
The Palestinians have twice been offered almost the entire land of the West Bank (95-98%) and twice have rejected the offer without even entering negotiations about it. You've adopted the Palestinian narrative so hawkishly and extremely that you fail to see the reality on the ground and who prevents them from gaining their own state - it's not Israel.
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This is correct. Israel has made numerous efforts toward peace. The Arab Muslims keep insisting on Israel being gone totally, or on a right of return, which would be a death sentence to Israel.

Empty words. And don't assume that people see reality as it is because "they're sympathetic to Judaism", merely because you as you have told had an experience with an Evangelist family supporting Israel because of their beliefs. (And I assume that's why you started having anti-Jewish sentiments but that's just an assumption)
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The antisemitic propaganda has spread in just that way. And, interestingly enough, it's spreading (in Germany) through liberal churches vs. evangelical ones. Perhaps other places in Europe as well. At any rate, as the OP states, it is spreading and it's dangerous. So much more dangerous than RabidAlpaca or other believe.

You lied and promoted a propaganda piece denying history. You've shown the entire land of Mandate Palestine as Arab-Palestinian as if the Jews back then were not Palestinian citizens just like the Arabs were and as if the entire land was Arab aside of the land held privately by Jews. That's horrible. When you were confronted you couldn't say a word to defend it and you haven't taken back your claims either.
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Those maps were designed to mislead those who didn't study them carefully. There was no reason, save propaganda, to stop the date of the third map just before the 67 War. The fourth map, indicates the borders just after the 67 War - to the present.

The Leftist push against Jews needs to be carefully monitored because it's slipping into dangerous territory.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
And while I advocate the basic human rights of both Israelis and Palestinians, many of you advocate for absolute and total Israeli domination over the Palestinians because you're religiously sympathetic to Judaism. I don't base my positions on race or religion, I see all races and religions as equal and thus equally deserving of basic rights and self governance.
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The part of my post to which you are responding concerns the Arabs' non-recognition of the 1947 U.N. Partition lines or the so-called 1949-67 borders, which were an Armistice line after they lost the 1948 War and the effort to eradicate Israel.
 
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