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Aleppo Is The 21st-Century Guernica - Where is the anger? [W:20]

DaveFagan said:
The gassing has been investigated by the UN's Carla del Ponte and was determined to have been done by the rebels as a false flag operation.
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Not 100% true...

Carla Del Ponte told Swiss TV that there were "strong, concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof".

Ms Del Ponte did not rule out the possibility that government forces might also have used chemical weapons.

Later, the commission stressed that it had "not reached conclusive findings" as to their use by any parties.

"As a result, the commission is not in a position to further comment on the allegations at this time," a statement added.

UN's Del Ponte says evidence Syria rebels 'used sarin' - BBC News
 
Fallenangel said:
Not really... "we are ok at the moment" because beyond slogans you simply can't provide a solution to a complex regional problem i.e. confrontation between different factions not only on a political but also on a religious basis.

Fallen.
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Individual Complex regional problem(s)" are usually due to the lack of a usually simple superstructure. So, while the small issue might seem totally intractable, it would just evaporate, were one to get the global structure right.
 
joG said:
Individual Complex regional problem(s)" are usually due to the lack of a usually simple superstructure. So, while the small issue might seem totally intractable, it would just evaporate, were one to get the global structure right.
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Meaning that one needs to build a fantasy world in which every issue will just solve itself at some unspecified point in the future....ffs, seriously, how about you'd stop spouting asinine fantasies and actually address the issues I've raised with your original "argument" e.g. complete lack of any meaningful & contemporary protection solutions for the people that don't want to live under Sunnah or/and Islamist rule?

Fallen.
 
Fallenangel said:
Meaning that one needs to build a fantasy world in which every issue will just solve itself at some unspecified point in the future....ffs, seriously, how about you'd stop spouting asinine fantasies and actually address the issues I've raised with your original "argument" e.g. complete lack of any meaningful & contemporary protection solutions for the people that don't want to live under Sunnah or/and Islamist rule?

Fallen.
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Not at all. We need a superstructure that robustly guarantees that R2P is upheld. Then the regional stuff can settle on the ground.
 
joG said:
Not at all. We need a superstructure that robustly guarantees that R2P is upheld. Then the regional stuff can settle on the ground.
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You've already stated that fantasy several times, similarly, we'll need to build colonies on Mars or Moon to guarantee our survival at some point... so, I"ll ask you again: Do you have any meaningful & contemporary protection solutions for the people that don't want to live under Sunnah or/and Islamist rule?

BTW. You seem to do it quite often - come up with some illusory construct that has very little relation to the actual contemporary issues on the ground and then getting "perplexed" why reality doesn't want to follow your ideas e.g. Russia should be like Poland discussion we had recently.

Fallen.
 
This isn't your daddy's America anymore. The truth be told, we don't really give a rats ass. They are just characters in a video game.

Our leaders wring our hands for five minutes for the MSM, and then they all head out for beer and pretzels.
 
Fallenangel said:
You've already stated that fantasy several times, similarly, we'll need to build colonies on Mars or Moon to guarantee our survival at some point... so, I"ll ask you again: Do you have any meaningful & contemporary protection solutions for the people that don't want to live under Sunnah or/and Islamist rule?

BTW. You seem to do it quite often - come up with some illusory construct that has very little relation to the actual contemporary issues on the ground and then getting "perplexed" why reality doesn't want to follow your ideas e.g. Russia should be like Poland discussion we had recently.

Fallen.
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Nope. The trick has been performed and at that time the irresponsible and those with personal interests in further wars were against it and talked like you right now.
 
joG said:
Nope. The trick has been performed and at that time the irresponsible and those with personal interests in further wars were against it and talked like you right now.
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Nice to see you admitting that you don't have any actual solutions or answers, good to know./s
Must be really cozy to live in a fantasy world ...yet somehow you people keep getting surprised when your "schemes" fail time after time all around the world.

Fallen.
 
Fallenangel said:
Nice to see you admitting that you don't have any actual solutions or answers, good to know./s
Must be really cozy to live in a fantasy world ...yet somehow you people keep getting surprised when your "schemes" fail time after time all around the world.

Fallen.
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That is not at all, what that said. It would be rather stupid of me to say it knowing that there is a goodly amount of literature on the topic. Funny you wouldn't know that.
 
joG said:
That is not at all, what that said. It would be rather stupid of me to say it knowing that there is a goodly amount of literature on the topic. Funny you wouldn't know that.
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You must be new to the interwebz - google up the sign "/s".

The thing is that so far you haven't been able to answer even a basic question about the solution of issues associated with the region ... repeating the same mantra that things will change at some unknown point in the future because everyone magically will just unite in one eternal hug with bunnies and rosy unicorns...is not a solution.

Fallen.
 
Fallenangel said:
You must be new to the interwebz - google up the sign "/s".

The thing is that so far you haven't been able to answer even a basic question about the solution of issues associated with the region ... repeating the same mantra that things will change at some unknown point in the future because everyone magically will just unite in one eternal hug with bunnies and rosy unicorns...is not a solution.

Fallen.
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You are right. That is because it is the wrong question, which is what I tried to tell you. Knowing this, you might want to read a regional application of what needs doing globally.
There is an excellent article on it in this edition of Foreign Affairs.
 
joG said:
You are right. That is because it is the wrong question, which is what I tried to tell you. Knowing this, you might want to read a regional application of what needs doing globally.
There is an excellent article on it in this edition of Foreign Affairs.
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Hmm...so there are "wrong" questions and there are "right" questions.... really good to know. Maybe it is simply "wrong" because you don't have an actual applicable answer to it?

Fallen.
 
Fallenangel said:
Hmm...so there are "wrong" questions and there are "right" questions.... really good to know. Maybe it is simply "wrong" because you don't have an actual applicable answer to it?

Fallen.
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Of course, it isn't a "wrong" question, if one doesn't know and isn't acting as though one knew. But when acting as though one had the answers and the others were dumb it rather lets down the sides to ask the "wrong" questions.
 
joG said:
Of course, it isn't a "wrong" question, if one doesn't know and isn't acting as though one knew. But when acting as though one had the answers and the others were dumb it rather lets down the sides to ask the "wrong" questions.
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wtf you're even talking about?!? It is really hilarious that you're trying to ascribe to yourself some kind of sophistication and/or knowledge, yet you can't even address simple queries regarding your own arguments.

I"ll ask again: Do you have any meaningful & contemporary protection solutions for the people that don't want to live under Sunnah or/and Islamist rule?


Fallen.
 
Fallenangel said:
wtf you're even talking about?!? It is really hilarious that you're trying to ascribe to yourself some kind of sophistication and/or knowledge, yet you can't even address simple queries regarding your own arguments.

I"ll ask again: Do you have any meaningful & contemporary protection solutions for the people that don't want to live under Sunnah or/and Islamist rule?


Fallen.
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There are a number of such solutions. But only a few would have any reasonable chance of lasting security for the population. Those fall under variatiins of the organizational structures I told you you might want to read up on. Have you?
Sorry. Only a joke. You wouldn't have been able to read it all in so short a time.
;)
 
joG said:
There are a number of such solutions. But only a few would have any reasonable chance of lasting security for the population. Those fall under variatiins of the organizational structures I told you you might want to read up on. Have you?
Sorry. Only a joke. You wouldn't have been able to read it all in so short a time.
;)
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The only joke here are your constant attempts to hide your own ignorance, as so far you haven't even attempted to describe anything that will address the concerns that I have raised. Moreover, you have utterly failed to not only address the issue but to even recognize a large disparity in the aspirations and security concerns of what you so ignorantly painted with a wide brush as "the population".

I've spent years and years of my relative short life in the ME, during quite a few of those years I've directly dealt with and learned about various security and defense related issues in the region. So instead of repeating that abstract bs you keep spouting for the second page now I'd suggest you to actually get some idea of what you are talking about and maybe for your own education to address the issues I have already raised.

Do you have any meaningful & contemporary protection solutions for the people that don't want to live under Sunnah or/and Islamist rule?


Fallen.
 
Fledermaus said:
Not 100% true...

Carla Del Ponte told Swiss TV that there were "strong, concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof".

Ms Del Ponte did not rule out the possibility that government forces might also have used chemical weapons.

Later, the commission stressed that it had "not reached conclusive findings" as to their use by any parties.

"As a result, the commission is not in a position to further comment on the allegations at this time," a statement added.

UN's Del Ponte says evidence Syria rebels 'used sarin' - BBC News
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Right, it points more towards the rebels than anyone else, contradicting the media and government narrative.
 
joG said:
Not at all. We need a superstructure that robustly guarantees that R2P is upheld. Then the regional stuff can settle on the ground.
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There is no real alternative to the Assad government. What does a post Assad Syria look like to you? It's weird that the Assad family rules for years and they were good enough for Angelina Jolie to pal around with. Fact is, civil wars are brutal. The French revolution made this one look pretty tame in many ways. They chopped off 40K+ heads. So many they had to automate it.

In this case, it's made even worse by innumerable outside interests being involved, ensuring maximum suffering. The U.S. in reality doesn't care about that, though. That's merely the excuse used to push our interests in the ongoing war over resources, namely who's pipeline is going to feed Europe.
 
Fishking said:
It's weird that the Assad family rules for years and they were good enough for Angelina Jolie to pal around with.
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Well now lol, Angelina is certainly a unique talisman to exonerate the brutal Assad clan.
 
Fishking said:
There is no real alternative to the Assad government. What does a post Assad Syria look like to you? It's weird that the Assad family rules for years and they were good enough for Angelina Jolie to pal around with. Fact is, civil wars are brutal. The French revolution made this one look pretty tame in many ways. They chopped off 40K+ heads. So many they had to automate it.

In this case, it's made even worse by innumerable outside interests being involved, ensuring maximum suffering. The U.S. in reality doesn't care about that, though. That's merely the excuse used to push our interests in the ongoing war over resources, namely who's pipeline is going to feed Europe.
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You really have no better solution than that? No idea, how to make the area stable and safe for people? That is really quite sad, after all this time.
 
joG said:
You really have no better solution than that? No idea, how to make the area stable and safe for people? That is really quite sad, after all this time.
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First solution would not be making things worse. Without foreign intervention this would have been over years ago. Secondly, the solution you most likely have in mind is impossible. Any government in the region will have to be fairly heavy-handed to keep the various factions in line. That's just the reality of the matter. Also, what does some country on the other side of the globe have to do with us? Finally, any cries for humanitarian conditions falls flat when we are still selling weapons to Saudi Arabia to commit war crimes in Yemen.

The reason we are involved in Syria has nothing to do with humanitarian concerns. Yes, there are many of our public that are concerned about that but that isn't what's been driving policy.
 
joG said:
The UN ie members should have followed through with Reponsibility to Protect. Some way should be found to bring the persons in the Assad regime to justice in The Hague.
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Why just single them out ?

If the likes of Blair and Bush can walk away from their much graver crimes what justifies going after anyone else ?

Where has been the responsibility to protect the Palestinians for 50 odd years ?

See the problem is that if laws are not enforced universally they lose any legitimacy.
 
Simpleχity;1066427290 said:
Some here would have you believe, erroneously and disingenuously, that...
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And here you are lying out of your ass and ignoring what the US does every day.

Simpleχity;1066427290 said:
1) The civilian population of Aleppo, be it North/South/East/West Aleppo have any say whatsoever over which military or militia occupies their neighborhoods. Yet the bombs/missiles from Russian/Syrian airstrikes are killing civilian men, women, and children everyday and decimating the city.
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They have a say in leaving and if they don't.. it's because militias aren't letting them leave. It's that simple.

Simpleχity;1066427290 said:
2) Assad inviting Russian forces into Syria is tantamount to a free pass to violate the Geneva Conventions of War (which both nations signed) and carte blanche to commit war crimes.
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Which is no different then US violating it in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. US is now bombing the hell out of Mosul with all the civilians there.. you think you are gonna hear about that? US war crimes in Haditha, Kunduz, Fallujah. US has a history of using White Phosphorus on civilians.

Simpleχity;1066427290 said:
3) Russia and Syria have some unfathomable right to use banned munitions - cluster bombs / incendiary bombs - on a city still populated with many hundreds of thousand inhabitants.
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White Phosphorus. Read up on US tactic known as "shake and bake" attacks .

Simpleχity;1066427290 said:
What is wrong with some of you people ?
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So how about you start at home first.
 
joG said:
Individual Complex regional problem(s)" are usually due to the lack of a usually simple superstructure. So, while the small issue might seem totally intractable, it would just evaporate, were one to get the global structure right.
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And this is just ignorance. Syria was a "simple superstructure" solution. France went with a super Syria instead of listening to Alawites who wanted to be part of France.
 
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