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Chilcot Report Damns USA Invasion of Iraq

joG said:
I am not quite sure, what you mean with Iraq being part of utopia building.
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It was called "Nation Building", "Spreading Democracy" and the like. We were going to "make" Iraq into a Western style democracy, then all the ME would want it for themselves, which would head off a war with Islam. THAT is why the invasion was supposed to be worth it.

DIDN'T. WORK.

Because there was a huge disconnect with reality.

Utopia builders tend to be very skilled fantasists, they always have been.

EDIT: what we ended up showing was our incompetence, and through stuff like Abu Ghraib that our morals are for press releases not for actual use, which made Muslims even more sure than they already were that the West is not something to be admired or copied.

Several trillion dollars and many thousands of wrecked or ended lives bought us the exact opposite of what we were trying to buy.

Thus the elite lose their followers.
 
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joG said:
The mission was accomplished. The Problem was that the Iraqis missed the best chance they have ever had at freedom and civil peace.
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How many years were the Kurds, Sunni and Shia fighting each other? In hind site we should have made 3 different countries but that is not how it was sold to the American people. That would have required quite a bit of cooperation with the EU, manpower and expense. Some new borders and an equitable split of the oil revenue along with security for the new borders. Britain knew and I'm sure the chickenhawks knew. "Mission Accomplished".
 
Hari Seldon said:
How many years were the Kurds, Sunni and Shia fighting each other? In hind site we should have made 3 different countries but that is not how it was sold to the American people. That would have required quite a bit of cooperation with the EU, manpower and expense. Some new borders and an equitable split of the oil revenue along with security for the new borders. Britain knew and I'm sure the chickenhawks knew. "Mission Accomplished".
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Ya, this is like one of the half dozen times in his life that Biden was right.
 
joG said:
The mission was accomplished. The Problem was that the Iraqis missed the best chance they have ever had at freedom and civil peace.
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Please detail exactly what was accomplished and exactly how the Iraqis 'missed' that best chance.

Please be very exact. I'll wait.
 
*waits on the next report condemning Obama and the European nations for the ****hole Libya turned into*
 
Hari Seldon said:
How many years were the Kurds, Sunni and Shia fighting each other? In hind site we should have made 3 different countries but that is not how it was sold to the American people. That would have required quite a bit of cooperation with the EU, manpower and expense. Some new borders and an equitable split of the oil revenue along with security for the new borders. Britain knew and I'm sure the chickenhawks knew. "Mission Accomplished".
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Wherein you are right is that the regional separation should probably have been stronger. The Europeans would probably have been okay with that, if it had been explained. But that is not really an excuse for the Iraqis letting the opportunity go that they had been presented with.
 
joG said:
I don't think that you understand. Democracy is nothing mythological. It is a technology that works better than other technologies, if the society can handle it. It is very much like building airplanes.
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I understand, i was there in uniform 3 tours, they do not want democracy. Similar to Russia wanting a strong man, we have no buisness telling others what type of goverment they should have, least of all ours. Until we get that thru our thick heads we will keep involving ourselves in parts of tge world we have no buisness with. You think the Islamic fundamentalist just woke up one day hating America? Much of what is happening is a direct result of America interfering, much of it can be traced back to foreigners meddling in the middle east. We need to clean up our own house before telling others how to live.

No disrespect to your opinion, not all socities want our way of life, including our form of goverment.
 
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Fishking said:
*waits on the next report condemning Obama and the European nations for the ****hole Libya turned into*
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Deflect

Please stay on topic, feel free to start your own thread on Libya
 
Kind of like science and god, the report made no assessment of America's part or motivation in the Iraq adventure, though it may illuminate some darker corners. Only Britain's part was considered. The Blair government's mistakes misrepresentations and misjudgements were legion, before during and after. The hundreds of thousands who died as a result, and continue to do so, deserved better.
 
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yankintx said:
Deflect

Please stay on topic, feel free to start your own thread on Libya
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*shrug* Let me reword this, then....

Brits publish report condemning something that's been going on forever and continues to happen. They also try to absolve themselves of any responsibility for their own actions and involvement in the matter.

Final conclusion = *yawn*
 
Wrong again.
Blair, his cabinet, the generals, the press, all got their share of blame for their contribution to the ongoing cluster****. America just happened to be there too, as far as the report is concerned.
 
Fishking said:
*shrug* Let me reword this, then....

Brits publish report condemning something that's been going on forever and continues to happen. They also try to absolve themselves of any responsibility for their own actions and involvement in the matter.

Final conclusion = *yawn*
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Got ya

We are reaping what we have sown for sure
 
Manc Skipper said:
Kind of like science and god, the report made no assessment of America's part or motivation in the Iraq adventure, though it may illuminate some darker corners. Only Britain's part was considered. The Blair government's mistakes misrepresentations and misjudgements were legion, before during and after. The hundreds of thousands who died as a result, and continue to do so, deserved better.
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It also did not analyse or even detail the steps and development of the negotiations whose conclusion was the invasion. It is really not very professional to leave out the game structure of the negotiations and the motivation of the various parties.
 
yankintx said:
Got ya

We are reaping what we have sown for sure
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Yup...I really don't understand our (the U.S.) foreign policy and that of a handful of other European nations. We actively make stuff worse than continually act surprised when the same results keep happening and I'll talk to many very smart people who think we just need to do it more and harder.
 
joG said:
It also did not analyse or even detail the steps and development of the negotiations whose conclusion was the invasion. It is really not very professional to leave out the game structure of the negotiations and the motivation of the various parties.
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Was that in the remit?
 
Tanngrisnir said:
Please detail exactly what was accomplished and exactly how the Iraqis 'missed' that best chance.

Please be very exact. I'll wait.
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1)-You don't sound friendly. So you will have to do with short-hand.
Anyway, US policy research in the early 1990s had determined that as the relative wealth moved to other countries these would gain in power and the quite solidly safe global uni-poled structure would shift and a multi-polar system slowly appear. That is the structure we know from most of history and which is the game theoretical driver of continual wars. The global community was tending to accept a solution to this very existential problem after Iraq as the fundamental change in the UN norms of 2005 showed.
-We now know, where the WMD went that we knew were there from the UN reports after Iraq1.
2)--That the Iraqis had a chance to create a more efficient society was certainly an achievement that they let slip, is right obvious.
 
yankintx said:
I understand, i was there in uniform 3 tours, they do not want democracy. Similar to Russia wanting a strong man, we have no buisness telling others what type of goverment they should have, least of all ours. Until we get that thru our thick heads we will keep involving ourselves in parts of tge world we have no buisness with. You think the Islamic fundamentalist just woke up one day hating America? Much of what is happening is a direct result of America interfering, much of it can be traced back to foreigners meddling in the middle east. We need to clean up our own house before telling others how to live.

No disrespect to your opinion, not all socities want our way of life, including our form of goverment.
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Quite true. A lot of societies ruling elites do not want to have an open system. In Germany you heard the sentence "We do not want American conditions" all the time. The thing is, that different political systems are more or less efficient and that for a complex society democracy is usually the best, if it is well constructed. This latter is not as simple, as one might think and takes an initial large effort and then continuing work on the project for ever. Jettisoning habits is not an easy thing to do.
 
Fishking said:
*shrug* Let me reword this, then....

Brits publish report condemning something that's been going on forever and continues to happen. They also try to absolve themselves of any responsibility for their own actions and involvement in the matter.

Final conclusion = *yawn*
Click to expand...

The independent Chilcot report is overflowing with condemnation of the Blair government's actions and omissions Fishking. No way does it try to absolve the UK of responsibility - quite the opposite.
 
joG said:
Without it, it is not really well possible to understand the entry into war.
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Nonsense. The decision was made before "negotiations" took place. Blair committed, perhaps in hope of cooling things down, but swiftly discovered he was a flea on the back of an angry hog.
 
joG said:
1)-You don't sound friendly. So you will have to do with short-hand.
Anyway, US policy research in the early 1990s had determined that as the relative wealth moved to other countries these would gain in power and the quite solidly safe global uni-poled structure would shift and a multi-polar system slowly appear. That is the structure we know from most of history and which is the game theoretical driver of continual wars. The global community was tending to accept a solution to this very existential problem after Iraq as the fundamental change in the UN norms of 2005 showed.
-We now know, where the WMD went that we knew were there from the UN reports after Iraq1.
2)--That the Iraqis had a chance to create a more efficient society was certainly an achievement that they let slip, is right obvious.
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That doesn't even remotely support your claim. When I asked you, "How did they miss the best chance?", responding with "That the Iraqis had a chance to create a more efficient society was certainly an achievement that they let slip, is right obvious." isn't a rational or relevant answer.

Thanks for trying.
 
Manc Skipper said:
Nonsense.
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Indeed.

Somebody trying to harness the horse from the butt forrard.
The decision was made before "negotiations" took place. Blair committed, perhaps in hope of cooling things down, but swiftly discovered he was a flea on the back of an angry hog.
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True but inconvenient to somebody trying to constantly spin history into fitting own cognitive dissonance.

The latter consisting (for instance) in uttering the belief elsewhere that France's and Germany's rejection of the war constituted siding with Saddam.
 
Tanngrisnir said:
That doesn't even remotely support your claim. When I asked you, "How did they miss the best chance?", responding with "That the Iraqis had a chance to create a more efficient society was certainly an achievement that they let slip, is right obvious." isn't a rational or relevant answer.
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quite apart from being totally untrue.
 
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