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Turkish warships will escort aid vessels to Gaza

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L0neW0lf said:
Erdogan slams Obama for silence on Israel's Gaza flotilla raid - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

I was pleasantly surprised at the number of Zionists who used the UN report as evidence for the blockade's legality especially considering how they pretty much discredit everything else the UN says about Israel.

I wonder how many of you accept the legitimacy of rulings by the ICJ/ICC?
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You don't understand the concept of 'Admissions against Interest'.

When a party, Noted for being on One side or with an interest in being on that side, concedes the other is right in a Particular/RARE/singular case, that has alot of weight.
It doesn't, however, make every other/Usual Self-interested/Self-serving statement he makes correct.

Thus case with anything UN/ICJ with an evenhanded conclusion about Israel.
 
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What if...? said:
Israel isn't a nuclear state, just ask them. They obviously aren't, as none of the inspections/treaties ALL the other nuclear states are subject to are not applied to Israel. Which means their way past useful life reactor will never melt down. Because it doesn't actually, exist.

And you guys wonder why Israels special status drives the Arab world crazy.
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Israel is not a party to the NPT. Simple enough... just as India and Pakistan are not...
 
What if...? said:
Technically, even though Israel was legally allowed to board, weren't the vessels also legally allowed to defend themselves in international waters. I always thought that was the case. In situ.
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Then they shouldn't whine and cry when Israel fights back...
 
ludahai said:
Israel is not a party to the NPT. Simple enough... just as India and Pakistan are not...
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Yet we talk openly of THEM as nuclear states, and express concerns with the consequences/problems of nuclear armed states. Not so with Israel.

Officially, last I heard, Israel is not a nuclear state.
 
ludahai said:
Then they shouldn't whine and cry when Israel fights back...
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Nor should anyone boarded by any hostile force.

"Its happening so just try to relax and enjoy it..."

Meh
 
Why do we pretend there is some sort of an alliance with the nutbags in Istanbul?
 
What if...? said:
Yet we talk openly of THEM as nuclear states, and express concerns with the consequences/problems of nuclear armed states. Not so with Israel.

Officially, last I heard, Israel is not a nuclear state.
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Officially, it isn't. If you are referring to Iran, remember it IS party to the NPT. Also, the odds of Israel becoming involved in a nuclear conflict is a fraction of that of the chance that exists in the Indian Subcontinent. Israel isn't about to use nukes against Gaza, regardless of what this or any subsequent flotilla (supporter by Turkey or otherwise) unless it is bringing in a nuclear bomb for the Gazans.
 
ludahai said:
Officially, it isn't. If you are referring to Iran, remember it IS party to the NPT. Also, the odds of Israel becoming involved in a nuclear conflict is a fraction of that of the chance that exists in the Indian Subcontinent. Israel isn't about to use nukes against Gaza, regardless of what this or any subsequent flotilla (supporter by Turkey or otherwise) unless it is bringing in a nuclear bomb for the Gazans.
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I imagine its more likely they'd nuke Iran, actually. Then I imagine they'd deny it and point to the fact that they are not a nuclear nation as proof of innocence.

And then the rest of the world would let them get away with it. Like they let them get away with everything now.

Its mindblowing the difference in perspective one can get merely perusing ISRAELI media on any given event.

THEY don't unquestioningly support Israels every act to the degree we do. Its a shameful display, imo. NOBODY is that perfect, especially no STATE.

And pretending that Israel treats the Palestinians perfectly appropriately does not further the peace process.

Drive a tank by my kids evety day on their way to school, not a half hour earlier or later, and yer gonna piss me off too.

Shakedown my family at dinner in a random sweep, at gunpoint, proving to my children that I cannot protect them. And you earn a beef with me I'll never forgive.

This is why I stay out of here. I can't tolerate people pretending nobody has any right or reason to be mortally angry at Israel for anything that it has ever done.

When I know good and well some of them would be in the first row of rock throwers if they found themselves in Palestinian moccasins.

Peace, I'm out.
 
ludahai said:
It has something to do with their membership in NATO, though that should be seriously reconsidered.
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That is utterly foolish. Turkey has a vital strategic position and is an integral part of NATO. Unless they actually start a war, a little argument with Israel isn't a huge deal.
 
Gardener said:
Nothing could be closer to the truth. If their goal was a paltry amount of aid, they could have gone through the normal time-consuming and ineffective channels of which there are many.

THeir goal was to bring an end to the system Israel has in place to prevent the development of Gaza's economy and to induce suffering amongst the civilian population.
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Fixed that for you.

mbig said:
You don't understand the concept of 'Admissions against Interest'.

When a party, Noted for being on One side or with an interest in being on that side, concedes the other is right in a Particular/RARE/singular case, that has alot of weight.
It doesn't, however, make every other/Usual Self-interested/Self-serving statement he makes correct.

Thus case with anything UN/ICJ with an evenhanded conclusion about Israel.
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This is why I care jack-all about what the UN says. Both sides have simpletons who think of the U.N. as some monolithic body with exclusive biases for or against certain nations. In this case, as I reiterate many times, the investigation had Alvaro Uribe as its vice-chair. This suggests the investigation was corrupted from the outset by the United States in hopes of covering Israel's ass on the raid. As such, the whole process was a sham and its conclusion only surprising to people who are not objective with regards to the situation.

ludahai said:
Who, in turn, support Hamas...
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Are you saying it is your contention that supporting the people of Gaza living in security and prosperity is the same as being a supporter of terrorism?

rathi said:
That is utterly foolish. Turkey has a vital strategic position and is an integral part of NATO. Unless they actually start a war, a little argument with Israel isn't a huge deal.
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While I do not believe NATO should persist as an organization, I think Turkey should probably be expelled from the group so long as it does because Turkey's continued participation in it will only create further complications given their ongoing realignment with forces militarily opposed to the NATO members.
 
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24107 said:
Turkey said on Thursday it would escort aid ships to Gaza and would not allow a repetition of last year's Israeli raid that killed nine Turks, setting the stage for a potential naval confrontation with its former ally.


Raising the stakes in Turkey's row with Israel over its refusal to apologise for the killings, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan told Al Jazeera television that Turkey had taken steps to stop Israel from unilaterally exploiting natural resources in the Mediterranean.
"Turkish warships, in the first place, are authorised to protect our ships that carry humanitarian aid to Gaza," Erdoğan said in the interview, broadcast by Al Jazeera with an Arabic translation.
"From now on, we will not let these ships to be attacked by Israel, as what happened with the Freedom Flotilla," Erdoğan said.
Referring to Erdoğan's comments, Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said: "This is a statement well-worth not commenting on."
Relations between Turkey and Israel, two close US allies in the region, have soured since Israeli forces boarded the Gaza-bound Mavi Marmara aid ship in May 2010. Turkish warships will escort aid vessels to Gaza
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Sounds like Turkey is trying to start a war with Israel.

Who wants to bet they don't actually do it?
 
Demon of Light said:
Are you saying it is your contention that supporting the people of Gaza living in security and prosperity is the same as being a supporter of terrorism?
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Well, you ARE in public support of people who have shown electoral support for a terrorist organization in legislative elections.
 
What if...? said:
Nor should anyone boarded by any hostile force.

"Its happening so just try to relax and enjoy it..."

Meh
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You're comparing it to rape? Dude... let's not belittle rape. First, it was a necessary and internationally recognized legal boarding; not piracy. Second, four other ships were boarded and inspected peacefully; there were no problems on the other four ships. Only one ship decided to declare war against Israel and international law on the high seas.

What if...? said:
This is why I stay out of here. I can't tolerate people pretending nobody has any right or reason to be mortally angry at Israel for anything that it has ever done.
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"Mortally angry" at a nation? I believe that's called genocide. I don't think it is ok for anyone to be mortally angry at any nation. If you mean war (against a government) is a reasonable option, let Israel take the gloves off and the problem will be solved quickly. Why do you advocate war against Israel and complain about Israel's mere police actions against Gaza.


ludahai said:
Well, you ARE in public support of people who have shown electoral support for a terrorist organization in legislative elections.
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I don't agree with that. I believe most Gazans are hostages of Hamas, consciously or otherwise. We saw what happened to the opposition.


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As soon as that ship declared war on Israel and international law, the current actions by Turkey became nearly unavoidable. No one is surprised that Turkey is radicalizing.
 
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ludahai said:
Well, you ARE in public support of people who have shown electoral support for a terrorist organization in legislative elections.
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Thank you for proving that, despite constantly accusing me of loving dictators, that you actually are the one who hates democracy. Suggesting that I must be against the welfare of all human beings living in a given territory because most of them chose a government you do not like says a great deal about you and not anything good.
 
On topic again, Erdogan said that the translation of Al-Arabia was inaccurate, says that Turkey 'won't send vessel to Mediterranean Sea as long as Israel avoids intervening in freedom of movement in international waters'

Erdogan says misquoted on warships - Israel News, Ynetnews

I'm not sure how is it any different from what Al-Arabia reported...
 
ludahai said:
It has something to do with their membership in NATO, though that should be seriously reconsidered.
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Like maybe terminated? They aren't allies by any definition of the word.
 
Wiggen said:
Like maybe terminated? They aren't allies by any definition of the word.
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You have no idea what you are talking about. Turkey has been one of the most useful allies the U.S. has ever made. In the past, they let us build a major air base on their soil, host secret missile sites against the USSR, and gave us support during the Gulf War. Today, they are aligned with us in the "war on terror" and provide absolutely crucial supply routes into Iraq. This whole escort situation is likely nothing more than flag waving that will have no real consequences. Unless they truly cross the line, it would be foolish to abandon them.
 
Demon of Light said:
Thank you for proving that, despite constantly accusing me of loving dictators, that you actually are the one who hates democracy. Suggesting that I must be against the welfare of all human beings living in a given territory because most of them chose a government you do not like says a great deal about you and not anything good.
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I don't hate democracy... I support the right of israel (also a democracy) the right to defend itself against a government that is at war with it.
 
rathi said:
You have no idea what you are talking about. Turkey has been one of the most useful allies the U.S. has ever made. In the past, they let us build a major air base on their soil, host secret missile sites against the USSR, and gave us support during the Gulf War. Today, they are aligned with us in the "war on terror" and provide absolutely crucial supply routes into Iraq. This whole escort situation is likely nothing more than flag waving that will have no real consequences. Unless they truly cross the line, it would be foolish to abandon them.
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Turkey was an ally when the United States had a strong hold on the political system of the country, but the pro-American deep state has been mostly cleaned out and the AKP's success at being able to thwart Kemalist machinations against them seriously challenges the ability of the U.S. to use the military to reorient Turkey away from this turn towards the East. Not to mention the attitudes of the military have changed to where even they can no longer be considered a reliable tool for the United States to exert control over the country. Overall the establishment in Turkey has made a general shift away from the West as a consequence of numerous policies including support for the Kurds and Islamophobic obstruction of Turkey's efforts to join the EU. The West's insistence, under American tutelage, on supporting the Greek Cypriot government and pushing pointless measures to recognize the Armenian Genocide has certainly not helped either.

Many points of friction exist with Turkey and have only been further aggravated by events like the War in Iraq and the flotilla incident last year. Given that Turkey actively collaborates with the military forces of Syria and Iran with regards to the Kurds and pursues closer economic and political integration with them at the expense of relations with the United States I see no reason to believe they will do anything but grow more distant.

Like I said, NATO is not an organization I think should be around, but as long as it is I think any country that is strategically aligning itself with other countries militarily opposed to NATO should have the its continued membership re-evaluated. The last thing I want to see is some situation emerge where Turkey invokes article 5 against Israel and the U.S. is put in the legal position where it has to assist Turkey in a war against Israel.

ludahai said:
I don't hate democracy... I support the aim of israel (also a democracy) the right to defend itself against a government that is at war with it.
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Don't change your story. The implication of your comments seems to be that the people of Gaza in general are legitimate targets for the imposition of suffering just because some of them voted for Hamas. In essence, because some of them voted for a specific party that you do not like Israel is free to engage in campaigns calculated to cause severe suffering in the general population. Such a position can only be interpreted as a lack of love for the system of democracy, even if you constantly claim to support it. How else should one interpret your suggestion that when people make choices you deem wrong that it is acceptable to make them suffer?
 
This was why our founding fathers warned us about foreign alliances, those who we wish to ally with we also inherit their enemies. Having allies is really only achievable when two or more countries share a common interest and in Turkey's case that was self preservation from the threat of the Soviet machine, now that this is really no longer a threat Turkey no longer needs the U.S. or NATO etc. This also is the same with the U.S. we no longer need Turkey as a ally as well, and that said we no longer need to support Turkey nor have bases in Turkey.
 
This article prior to Mullah Erdogan's pronouncements this week

Turkey's need for Israel's UAVs may unite once close allies
Ankara censures Israel for its attacks on Gaza, but does not hesitate to bomb the Kurdish PKK movement in much the same manner.
By Zvi Bar'el // 8/30/11 // Ha'aretz

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Iraqi Kurds marching to protest a bombing run by Turkish warplanes that killed 7.

Turkey's patience in the face of frequent attacks by the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK ) ended last week, when it began a war targeted at areas with high concentrations of members of the movement, which is defined as a terrorist organization. On Thursday the Turkish army announced that it had killed 100 PKK members in areas along the Iraqi border and inside Iraq as well, a week after the PKK killed eight Turkish soldiers.

Turkey censured Israel for its activities in Gaza, but operates in a similar manner against the PKK: It penetrates Iraq's air space and bombs villages or sites suspected of housing PKK members, causing the deaths of innocent people, including women and children. And like Israeli diplomats, Turkey's ambassador was summoned to a reprimand: the Iraqi foreign minister, Hoshyar Zebari, demanded of the ambassador that his country cease its military activities on Iraqi soil immediately. Members of the Iraqi Kurdistan Parliament added the demand for an apology for Turkey's attacks in its country to this Reprimand.
It appears that Ankara, which brought the term "apology" to the forefront of the new diplomatic discourse, will have to deal with this itself now.
According to Turkish sources, in this campaign the Turkish army is using unmanned aerial vehicles acquired from Israel, to which Turkish-made cameras are attached. It turns out that the amount of UAV's in Turkey's hands is insufficient, and it is seeking to purchase more, along with other military equipment, for immediate delivery. Turkey's policy until now has been to acquire Turkish-made equipment or that produced in cooperation with other countries; however, in light of the increasing attacks of the Kurdish movement and the decision to focus a military effort on it, Turkey has decided to make immediate purchases.
[..........]
The war against the PKK has been going on for a long time. Since 1984, more than 40,000 people have been killed.
[......]
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and then Turkeys' primero Islamist has the nerve...
Erdoan accuses Israel of withholding UAVs - Globes
The Turkish Prime Minister said that unmanned aerial vehicles sent to Israel for maintenance had not been returned.
8 September 11
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Sure! Israel should send him more UAV's to use to gather intelligence on the Israeli Navy during the next flotilla.
Perhaps that's why Mullah Erdogan said he was Misunderstood/misquoted this week.
He needs his Toys.
 
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