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Hamas armed wing ends truce with Israel

Though there was an attack against Israel in the Sinai, there is no evidence to suggest this attack came from people in Gaza, hence Israel started these killings on the people of Gaza in response to something which more likely initiated in Egypt. Israel hence is the aggressor towards Gaza..

The IDF intelegence says it was the PRC behind the attack, whats not good enough for you is more than enough for me. Your views here are well known, you were one of the strongest supporters of the outrageous theory that it was an Asian worker behind the butcher of the Fogel family, I am not supprised that you will make claims that the IDF intelegence is making up this information as well.
 
I think it has more to do with who is in the White House than who is in Beit Aghion. Also, are you suggesting that a dozen dead Palestinians, including a child, is not enough blood to be paid?

I think that this was an oportunity to clean Gaza from terrorisem just like we did in Shield Wall in the west bank, it was a mistake not to include Gaza in Shield wall, it was a mistake that Kadima didn't do it in Cast Lead and the people of southern Israel pay for this mistake, from a situation where rockets fired on small villages and small towns like Sderot were "tolerated" by the GOI, things escalated to rockets fired on Ashkelon being "tolerated" and today it seems that rockets fired on Ashdod and Beer-Sheva are being "tolerated" by "the most right wing goverment in the history of Israel". More than a million people who are living under constant fear in not a situation that should be tolerated by Israel. I think this just demonstrates how extreme and fanatic this goverment is...
 
The IDF intelegence says it was the PRC behind the attack, whats not good enough for you is more than enough for me.

There is no evidence that the perputrators of this attack come from Gaza

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=7182

Evidence undermines gov’t’s claim that terrorists were Gazans

Your views here are well known,

We are concerned here with evidence whether the killings in Sinai are the responsibility of the people of Gaza. You are clearly attempting to deflect Israel's aggression and killing in Gaza. There is no evidence that the people involved in the shooting in Sinai came from Gaza.

You have no evidence so you try to claim I have no right to say anything saying

you were one of the strongest supporters of the outrageous theory that it was an Asian worker behind the butcher of the Fogel family, I am not supprised that you will make claims that the IDF intelegence is making up this information as well.

Now if I remember correct it was Mira who found the piece of news concerning that. I have no knowledge of 'strongly' believing it. Rather I was strongly against believing it was necessarily a Palestinian before that had been proved and I was strongly against the revenge which innocent Palestinians in the area suffered.


Your views here are well known,

so to return to this. If my views are 'well known' to you then you should know that I do not believe in vigilante or 'price tag' revenge, I do not believe in attacking and killing innocent people and I certainly do not accept there is anything 'righteous' or defensible' in attacking and killing people blaming them for something there is no proof of. These are my views you speak of. They are not subject to change.

No evidence has been provided that the people involved in the Sinai killings were from Gaza.

In addition to the two other links in this post

UPDATE 21 Aug 2011

* Sinai. No leads yet on identity of the Eilat attackers. According to Egyptian sources, three Egyptian Bedouin corpses were found along the Egypt-Israel border – no identification yet.
Also, the head of a suicide bomber who detonated himself after the Eilat attacks inside Egypt is reportedly at El Arish hospital, presumably for forensic purposes. There seems to have been major anger in Sinai at some of the roundups by Egyptian army recently. Representatives of SCAF met yesterday in north Sinai with local Bedouin communities to ‘bury the hatchet’. Politics in the Sinai are very unclear now, to say the least. There is a risk of this developing into a swamp of low-level intervention in the border region of Sinai, Lebanon style (or like the Jordan/West Bank in 1968-69). It seems Israel would prefer Egypt to do such intervention in Sinai on its behalf, by increasing the number of Egyptian soldiers allowed into East Sinai. At most, Israel might consider retaking the Philadelphi Route between Gaza and Sinai but even this carries a cost as it involves retaking responsibility for Gaza humanitarian access.

In the meantime, Gaza’s residents are paying the price of this complex crisis, as are southern Israeli civilians.

Crisis in the Sinai | Jews for Justice for Palestinians
 
There is no evidence that the perputrators of this attack come from Gaza

There is evidence, its just not shared with you, are you suggesting that the military inteligence has to share its evidence and informants with you? Your mistrust in the IDF "word" for is as good as my trust in it, and mybe you should try to convince us why we shouldn't trust Israeli military inteligence.

so to return to this. If my views are 'well known' to you then you should know that I do not believe in vigilante or 'price tag' revenge, I do not believe in attacking and killing innocent people and I certainly do not accept there is anything 'righteous' or defensible' in attacking and killing people blaming them for something there is no proof of. These are my views you speak of. They are not subject to change.

I do not support in price tag revenge either. I support the basic need of 1 million people in southern Israel to go to sleep without air raid sirens. This is why I don't think those lousy attacks and hits on terrorist leaders and infrastructure will do any good, unless Israel will get into Gaza and clean it, the people of southern Israel will not be able to have sweet dreams at night, if the goverment doesn't intend on going into Gaza then these attacks only make the situation worse for the people of southern Israel, as they only warm things up, those are attacks just to make face to the public and say "we do not neglect the people of the south" while they actually do.
 
There is evidence, its just not shared with you, are you suggesting that the military inteligence has to share its evidence and informants with you? Your mistrust in the IDF "word" for is as good as my trust in it, and mybe you should try to convince us why we shouldn't trust Israeli military inteligence.

I disagree. All the signs point to the attacks being more likely to be Egyptican than Gazan. Did you listen to the real news interview? The supposed evidence is that Kalashnikov bullets were found. Even I the most uneducated on military items know they are a very popular weapon.

There is no evidence. It may be your opinion but there is no evidence.

I do not believe in taking action against people when there is no evidence.


I do not support in price tag revenge either.

Hooray! We at last have something we agree in.

I support the basic need of 1 million people in southern Israel to go to sleep without air raid sirens. This is why I don't think those lousy attacks and hits on terrorist leaders and infrastructure will do any good, unless Israel will get into Gaza and clean it, the people of southern Israel will not be able to have sweet dreams at night, if the goverment doesn't intend on going into Gaza then these attacks only make the situation worse for the people of southern Israel, as they only warm things up, those are attacks just to make face to the public and say "we do not neglect the people of the south" while they actually do.

While I agree with you that it will be good when this situation is justly resolved and people live in peace and harmony without the fear of dying in the night, it must be remembered that the reason there has been the recent rockets is because Israel attacked Gaza. All the more reason for not attacking Gaza when there is no evidence that they committed this offence.

As the jfjfp article concluded, we do not yet know who did this attack but the people who are suffering from it are the people of Gaza and South Israel. Neither of them should be suffering. My own belief was that Gaza would have served herself better using restraint. However it has to be seen she was responding to attacks from Israel.
 
I disagree. All the signs point to the attacks being more likely to be Egyptican than Gazan. Did you listen to the real news interview? The supposed evidence is that Kalashnikov bullets were found. Even I the most uneducated on military items know they are a very popular weapon.

There is no evidence. It may be your opinion but there is no evidence.

I do not believe in taking action against people when there is no evidence.

Israeli intelegence had known about this group's intention to commit a terrorist act before the attack even took place. Why do you suppose Israel attacked PRC high command and not Islamic Jihad or Hamas? Just for fun? (in this case killing Hamas leaders is much more "fun").

While I agree with you that it will be good when this situation is justly resolved and people live in peace and harmony without the fear of dying in the night, it must be remembered that the reason there has been the recent rockets is because Israel attacked Gaza. All the more reason for not attacking Gaza when there is no evidence that they committed this offence.

Yes ofcourse, Israel started it, the world is upside down in alexa's reality, the PRC lunched an attack on Israel, Israel reacted. Rockets are being fired on Israel on weekly basis, the reaction to the PRC attack didn't cause the rocket fire, it just increased its frequency.

And lets say it wasn't the PRC who attacked first, just for the sake of argument, are you really suggesting that the attack on PRC high command is an excuse to launch rockets on 2 of the biggest cities in Israel? Really???
I don't think Israel needs any reason to whipe out terrorists and if the palestinians decide to react, the only legitimate target will be the IDF, not the people of Ashdod, Beer Sheva, Ashkelon, Kiryat Gat, Kiryat Malachi, Ofakim, Sderot, Netivot and dozens of small villages. I suggest you open google maps and witness the vast area of people living in constant terror due to those maniacs.
 
Israeli intelegence had known about this group's intention to commit a terrorist act before the attack even took place. Why do you suppose Israel attacked PRC high command and not Islamic Jihad or Hamas? Just for fun? (in this case killing Hamas leaders is much more "fun").

That would explain how they can accuse them with no evidence? :shock:

Without evidence and with the available evidence suggesting something else, regardless of whether they expected someone to do a terror attack, there is no evidence that they did this one.

Yes ofcourse, Israel started it, the world is upside down in alexa's reality,

On the evidence available, Israel attacked and killed in Gaza, blaming them for an incident they have no evidence of them being to blame for and, Ido this is not my personal view as you want to pretend I have given you plenty of links to support it. None of which you have refuted


the PRC lunched an attack on Israel, Israel reacted.
Without proof and when responsibility has been claimed by some other group, you simply cannot say that with credibility.


Rockets are being fired on Israel on weekly basis, the reaction to the PRC attack didn't cause the rocket fire, it just increased its frequency.

and Gaza civilians are killed regularly trying to go about their daily life and earn a living. This is not a one sided affair.
Before the attacks in Eilat refocused the mainstream media's attention on the Gaza Strip (negatively of course) Gaza continued to face the regular violence inherent in siege and occupation. One incident occurring this week involved a Palestinian who was shot 10 times in the chest and head in by Israeli soldiers for entering an Israeli declared 'buffer zone'.

Like most events of this nature, it received little coverage. Palestinians shot for being where the Israelis don't want them to be are a frequent occurrence and do not raise eyebrows anymore. Whether it is Palestinian farmers too close to Israel's 'buffer zone' or Palestinian fishermen too close to the Israeli Navy enforced blockade line, when Palestinians get shot for simply going about there daily lives they are part of the norm and not really newsworthy.

Permission to Narrate: JTA & the IDF: Making Men out of Boys in Gaza



And lets say it wasn't the PRC who attacked first, just for the sake of argument, are you really suggesting that the attack on PRC high command is an excuse to launch rockets on 2 of the biggest cities in Israel? Really???

You must not have noticed. I did not see the rocket launches as a good idea. I understand the first Israeli strike on Gaza killed an infant of two
Since yesterday there has been a concentrated effort in Israel to direct public and international attention regarding the Eilat attacks away from Egypt and onto Gaza.

It began just an hour or so after the attacks. While all Israeli media sources seemed taken by surprise and automatically analysed the attacks within the context of the Sinai peninsula and the Egyptian control over it – Minister of Defense Ehud Barak said unequivocally and very promptly that the attacks, which all came from the other side of the Egyptian borders, originated in Gaza, their organisers were in Gaza, and the response would be in Gaza. Israeli press immediately followed his lead without criticism, thus preparing the way for the evening attack in Rafah which killed 6, including at least 2 central leaders of the Popular Resistance Committees (PRC) as well as a woman and a two-year-old child. Hamas immediately denied all involvement and all night long no group took responsibility. Following the airstrike, however, PRC declared it would retaliate and rocket fire into Israel resumed.

Crisis in the Sinai | Jews for Justice for Palestinians

Again, my opinion was that restraint was the best course of action. However it is completely predictable that their would be rocket attack from Gaza and you are using a double standard here. You see your right to attack, even without evidence, but do not see the right of the people of Gaza to fight back when their children are killed.

I never approve of unnecessary killing.


I don't think Israel needs any reason to whipe out terrorists and if the palestinians decide to react, the only legitimate target will be the IDF, not the people of Ashdod, Beer Sheva, Ashkelon, Kiryat Gat, Kiryat Malachi, Ofakim, Sderot, Netivot and dozens of small villages. I suggest you open google maps and witness the vast area of people living in constant terror due to those maniacs.

Israel attacked Gaza. It is your government you should be speaking to.

Crisis in the Sinai | Jews for Justice for Palestinians

Dubious Evidence Israeli Bus Attackers Based in Gaza

Evidence undermines gov’t’s claim that terrorists were Gazans

Not everyone is as pacifist as me. If you go bombing people within an hour of an attack when you have no evidence they did it, just because you 'thought' they were going to engage in terrorist activity, and you kill people who had nothing to do with this including children, for that, not the first attack, but for retaliation after Gaza is attacked, Israel is responsible.
 
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Not everyone is as pacifist as me.

And considering your continued refusal to denounce genocidal terrorism to the degree you actually seek to blame the targets of such as you are doing here, that is certainly saying a lot.
 
Without Ever touching an Actual credible news source.
Alexa's posts here, as always, looking heavily sourced but Ridiculous.

'The Real News', alternative/near conspiracy; JFJP, Used Daily, the usual Leftist fringers on average once per post, sometimes thrice.
Start at Left Guardian and .. work further left.. and down/out. (ie anti-Israel alanhart on pg 1)
The internet let's you carve out your own little world, 'support' ANY opinion.
 
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I think that this was an oportunity to clean Gaza from terrorisem just like we did in Shield Wall in the west bank, it was a mistake not to include Gaza in Shield wall, it was a mistake that Kadima didn't do it in Cast Lead and the people of southern Israel pay for this mistake, from a situation where rockets fired on small villages and small towns like Sderot were "tolerated" by the GOI, things escalated to rockets fired on Ashkelon being "tolerated" and today it seems that rockets fired on Ashdod and Beer-Sheva are being "tolerated" by "the most right wing goverment in the history of Israel". More than a million people who are living under constant fear in not a situation that should be tolerated by Israel. I think this just demonstrates how extreme and fanatic this goverment is...

Your understanding of "tolerance" is out of whack if you think bombing Gaza every time a rocket falls, even if it just crashes harmlessly in the desert, is "tolerating" those actions. Countries around the world tolerate far worse than that. If the standards Israel has set for the Palestinians were the same standards being set for the conflicts in Kashmir or Korea we would not be talking of these conflicts anymore because they would have been inevitably settled long ago in terribly bloody wars.

Again, Netanyahu is not dealing with a permissive leader in the United States. Under Bush he may very well have engaged in some bloody campaign through Gaza by now. However, Obama is more interested in restraint.

And considering your continued refusal to denounce genocidal terrorism to the degree you actually seek to blame the targets of such as you are doing here, that is certainly saying a lot.

Alexa is only pointing out that Israel is responsible for the rocket attacks because it is the one that decided to engage in a revenge operation without any indication that they were even taking revenge on the people responsible. Israel has often bombed parties other than the ones actually responsible for an attack. Seems they just like using said attacks to excuse actions they already planned to take.
 
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Your understanding of "tolerance" is out of whack if you think bombing Gaza every time a rocket falls, even if it just crashes harmlessly in the desert, is "tolerating" those actions. Countries around the world tolerate far worse than that.

Really? Which countries Dem?
Now Dem there have been 10,046 mortar and rocket attacks the past eight years against Israel and 7,000 of those since Israel vacated Gaza in 2005. No anyone else with that no. of attacks against them? Really? Names?


Oh by the way not that it seems to matter in the rhetoric being exchanged in this and the other thread on the latest salvo but the IDF did manage to take out one rocket-launching cell in Nothern Gaz.

Its actually the Islamic Jihad who claimresponsibility for the latest attacks and they say they are responding to the IDF taking out one of their leaders near Jenin early Tuesday morning.

The list of attacks in 2011 on Israel can be found at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2011
 
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Oh for some facts.

In fact, Israeli aircraft bombed seven targets in the Gaza Strip in direct response to 20 terrorists who attacked and killed 8 Israelis and wounded 40 in Eilat and then fled back into egyot,

Israel in fact bombed the Gaza Strip Thursday afternoon a few hours after the first shootout.

In this air attack a building was bombed in Rafah containing 6 leaders of the Popular Resistance Commitees who the IDF claimed directed the attacks against Israel. They also killed other terrorrists and a Hamas weapons storage depot as well as smuggling tunnels.

Now I fully expected the usual b.s. that the IDF indiscriminately killed Gaza civilians from the usual anti Israelis. Its par for the course. So is advancing fabricated conspiracies such as it was actually Egyptians but Hamas. Jihad and the Popular Resistance Committees despite what Alexa and Demon may believe admitted to attacking Israel and being attacked back by the IDF.
During these battles Palestinian militants fired six missiles at Israel during the Thursday night and then continuously the next day.

Egyptian, state-run media reported that a military officer and two policemen were killed near the border with Gaza in an Israeli airstrike.

The state controlled al-Ahram newspaper said they were killed when the IDF was shooting back targeting infiltrators who crossed into Rafah.

After the Thursday response from Israel, on Friday, April 19, missiles were fired into Ashdod, Beersheba, Ashelon Sdot Negev, Shar Hanegev and Eshkol from Gaza.

1 of 6 missiles shot at Ashdod hit a synogue injuring 10.

Now we can read the usual b.s. that Israel simply attacked civilians but they did not. That is complete b.s. and the standard response to any Israeli attack trotted out by Demon et al.

Then we get this absolute fabricated nonsense that OTHER nations sit around and allow themselves to be attacked and do nothing so Israel should do the same according to Demon and the usual using of Palestinian civilians as a shield and pretense to argue Israel has no right to defend itself-it should not go into Gaza after terrorists attacking it because civilians live there. In this double standard, Israeli civilians die from terrorist attack but we claim either that they are not civilians or that its o.k. to kill Israeli civilians and attack them with missiles but its not o.k. for Israel to defend itself.

The usual tired rhetoric. Israel should just sit back and get its people blown to smithereens and do butkus because to defend themselves is nothing but attacks on civilians.

Absolute b.s.

In fact the IDF used helicopters to drop flares in a 70 kilometre radius along the border running south from Gaza strip along the Egyptian Sina Border. They were not targetting civilians and to say they were is b.s. They went after terrorists.

As for Alexa fabricating that Egypt did ther attacks I am sure Gen. Sami Annan will be pleased to know that because his unit in the Egyptian military has been engaged in anti terror operations in Sinai for some time and right after the attacks he sent his soldiers in to block terrorists from leaving Gaza to get into Israel via the Sinai and his troops engaged in fire with a suicide team on the Friday morning.
 
Oh for some facts.

In fact, Israeli aircraft bombed seven targets in the Gaza Strip in direct response to 20 terrorists who attacked and killed 8 Israelis and wounded 40 in Eilat and then fled back into egyot,

Israel in fact bombed the Gaza Strip Thursday afternoon a few hours after the first shootout.

In this air attack a building was bombed in Rafah containing 6 leaders of the Popular Resistance Commitees who the IDF claimed directed the attacks against Israel. They also killed other terrorrists and a Hamas weapons storage depot as well as smuggling tunnels.

Now I fully expected the usual b.s. that the IDF indiscriminately killed Gaza civilians from the usual anti Israelis. Its par for the course. So is advancing fabricated conspiracies such as it was actually Egyptians but Hamas. Jihad and the Popular Resistance Committees despite what Alexa and Demon may believe admitted to attacking Israel and being attacked back by the IDF.
During these battles Palestinian militants fired six missiles at Israel during the Thursday night and then continuously the next day.

Egyptian, state-run media reported that a military officer and two policemen were killed near the border with Gaza in an Israeli airstrike.

The state controlled al-Ahram newspaper said they were killed when the IDF was shooting back targeting infiltrators who crossed into Rafah.

After the Thursday response from Israel, on Friday, April 19, missiles were fired into Ashdod, Beersheba, Ashelon Sdot Negev, Shar Hanegev and Eshkol from Gaza.

1 of 6 missiles shot at Ashdod hit a synogue injuring 10.

Now we can read the usual b.s. that Israel simply attacked civilians but they did not. That is complete b.s. and the standard response to any Israeli attack trotted out by Demon et al.

Then we get this absolute fabricated nonsense that OTHER nations sit around and allow themselves to be attacked and do nothing so Israel should do the same according to Demon and the usual using of Palestinian civilians as a shield and pretense to argue Israel has no right to defend itself-it should not go into Gaza after terrorists attacking it because civilians live there. In this double standard, Israeli civilians die from terrorist attack but we claim either that they are not civilians or that its o.k. to kill Israeli civilians and attack them with missiles but its not o.k. for Israel to defend itself.

The usual tired rhetoric. Israel should just sit back and get its people blown to smithereens and do butkus because to defend themselves is nothing but attacks on civilians.

Absolute b.s.

In fact the IDF used helicopters to drop flares in a 70 kilometre radius along the border running south from Gaza strip along the Egyptian Sina Border. They were not targetting civilians and to say they were is b.s. They went after terrorists.

As for Alexa fabricating that Egypt did ther attacks I am sure Gen. Sami Annan will be pleased to know that because his unit in the Egyptian military has been engaged in anti terror operations in Sinai for some time and right after the attacks he sent his soldiers in to block terrorists from leaving Gaza to get into Israel via the Sinai and his troops engaged in fire with a suicide team on the Friday morning.

I have fabricated nothing Mika-El. I provided links for everything I said. There is no evidence that the Sinai attacks were committed by people from Gaza. Evidence so far as I have shown suggests it is more likely to be Egyptians. Keep dreaming but please at least be honest
 
Wait now let me respond to the genius who lectured me and said the terrorists should be referred to as "attackers" and then
claims there is a reasonable way to attack Israel.

Let me also respond to Demon who says other nations put up with more attacks from Israel and do nothing and infers the only attacks on Israel are meaningless missile strikes hitting nothing.

Do tell me, on April 7, 2011 when an anti-tank missile was fired from Gaza at a clearly-marked yellow Israeli school bus killing 16 year old Daniel Viflic and wounding the bus driver was this reasonable? Oh but wait, according to Demon this was harmless and meaningless?


Oh do tell me too, on March 11, 2011, where was Demon and this genius talking of reasonable attacjers when 5 Israelis, were stabbed to death in their beds in Itam and the stabbing death of a 3 month old baby, 4 year old and 11 year old?

Where were Demon and this genius on September 1, 2010 when 2 Israelis were wounded in am ambushh by Hamas terrorists near Kochav Hashachar or on Aug.31, 2010 when 4 Israelis including a pregnant woman were murdered in an ambush near Kiryat Arba which Hamas boasted about doing timing it right before peace talks were supposed to resume in Washington?


How about on July 22, 2008 when 16 people were wounded when a man drove a bulldozer into a bus and four other vehicles in central Jerusalem?

Give me a friggin break.

The war of terror against Israel since 1948 has never ended. It has been continuous and can come from the Sinai, Gaza, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, the West Bank, by sea and in the air from Iran at any time.

Its a daily, hourly, minute by minute fact. An attack can happen and does happen, aimed at civilians of Israel designed to terrorize Israelis.

The same anti Israeli shrills then pretend Palestinian terrorists do nothing and simply sit on their hands and if they do attack,t here is no condemntation of them but instead these genius lectures on how Israel should shove its hands up its buttox and do nothing because other nations do nothing when they are attacked. Who? Russia? The US?

Let's end this b.s.

This latest round of attacks is just more of the same old bull. It comes at a time because Hamas is trying to test Israel's resolve in light of internal economic protests. In the midst of wide spread economic protests, Hamas tests and penetrates Israel in preparation of a larger attack.

Now to directly respond to Demon's absurd comment Israel should do nothing he is well aware that when a missile is shot into Israel it shuts down the village, town or city where the missile is launched at causing wide spread economic damage even if the missile never does property damage or kills or injures anyone and so he knows better than anyone Israel can't sit silently as its silence will be construed as weakness and a geen light to invite more attacks.

So Israel shoots back and civilians on both sides suffer only Demon pretends only Palestinians are caught in the line of fire and simply blames Israel for the insanity.

I won't wait for him or Alexa or the genius lecturing me about reasonable attacks to condemn Jihad or Hamas but I will and pin the violence directly on them.

I will also say it is never acceptable if any civilian Palestinian or Israeli dies. Unlike the forum member who tries to suggest attacks are reasonable I loudly argue an attack by its inherent nature is illogical and patently unreasonable-its a decision to choose violence over reasoned logic. To suggest its reasonable is absurd. To suggest if its only directed at soldiers which it never is it would make it reasonable is also equally as absurd. No war is reasonable. No attack by a terrorist or violent person is reasonable.

No violence is acceptable or capable of being rationalized.

However I will not sit here and apologize for the IDF defending Israel from attacks and if terrorists hide behind Gaza citizens as shields after attacking Israelis, those terrorists bare direct moral responsibility to the harm they expose the civilians theyhide behind not Israel.

Nothing Israel did was designed to target Palestinian civilians and to suggest they ignored the terrorists and simply went after civilians is a crock. Not only is it a bold faced lie but it is a pathetic attempt to justify violence and terrorism by trying to distort what Hamas and Jihad do and suggest they only respond to Israel attacking Gaza citizens.

They do not. They initiate terror and then when the IDF goes after them they cower behind Gaza civilians and use them as a pretext to try pose themselves as victims. Hamas and Jihad are no victims. They are dispicable cowards engaged in a never ending war or terror and the IDF will do what it has to.
 
I have fabricated nothing Mika-El. I provided links for everything I said. There is no evidence that the Sinai attacks were committed by people from Gaza. Evidence so far as I have shown suggests it is more likely to be Egyptians. Keep dreaming but please at least be honest


There is no evidence that shows it was done by Egyptians. None. Please provide it.

On the other hand the Egyptian Army's response to engaging in a fire right with terrorists and sealing them off is a fact no one is denying not Hamas, not me, how about you? Are you suggesting they engaged in a false flag operation? Do you have proof?


You even have any? At no time did I or others state innocent civilians from Gaza attacked Israel. We know it was Hamas and Jihad and other terrorist cells.
 
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On the evidence available, Israel attacked and killed in Gaza, blaming them for an incident they have no evidence of them being to blame for and, Ido this is not my personal view as you want to pretend I have given you plenty of links to support it. None of which you have refuted

Would you please stop laundering words? This wasn't an "incident" this was a premeditated terrorist attack, a ****en Anti Tank missile blow up two couples coming back from a vacation in Eilat following by a gunman who shot them from point blank range, a suicide bomber blew himself up on a bus killing the bus driver and another gunman ambushed another couple coming back from Eilat killing the husband while his wife hears him gurgling as he dies and she can't help because she plays dead for 45 minutes as she fear the gunman will finish her off. This is your "incident"...

As for evidence, you keep refering to evidence available, as I already explained but you wish to keep living in your fantasy world, not all of the evidence is available to you, and I do not think the IDF intelegence has to give up their informants for the sake of Alexa's approval.

and Gaza civilians are killed regularly trying to go about their daily life and earn a living. This is not a one sided affair.

YOU are the one who is making it look as if it was one sided, remember??? YOU said Israel attacked first! Now when you are confronted with reality you say its not a one sided affair???

You must not have noticed. I did not see the rocket launches as a good idea. I understand the first Israeli strike on Gaza killed an infant of two
Good idea??? Alexa, this is not a "good idea" and not even a "bad idea" this is an act of terror, this is a murderous act designed to implement fear in the hearts of civilian population! stop with this word laundary!!! You put on the scale attacks targeting civilian populations on one side and surgical strikes aimed at terrorists on the other and in your weird univers they are moraly equivalent. You try to excuse terrorisem, there is no excuse for terrorisem, none what so ever. But again, nothing will supprise me from someone who compared Gaza to Nazi Ghettos.

Again, my opinion was that restraint was the best course of action. However it is completely predictable that their would be rocket attack from Gaza and you are using a double standard here. You see your right to attack, even without evidence, but do not see the right of the people of Gaza to fight back when their children are killed. I never approve of unnecessary killing.

Even without evidence??? What are those metal tubes falling from the sky terrorising the people of southern Israel? Candy canes ???
The people of Gaza has every right to fight back, they are not fighting, they are targeting civilians, Beer Sheva is not a legitimate target to fight back, a head of a terrorist group is, an IDF outpost is, but when they do launch an attack on an IDF unit it usually ends up with dead terrorists so... they go back to doing what they do best, terrorise ordinary citizens

Not everyone is as pacifist as me.

ROFL

If you go bombing people within an hour of an attack when you have no evidence they did it, just because you 'thought' they were going to engage in terrorist activity, and you kill people who had nothing to do with this including children, for that, not the first attack, but for retaliation after Gaza is attacked, Israel is responsible.

I see what you are doing there, war of atteration, if you say something long enough, people will finally give up correcting you.
Israel knew of the PRC intent to launch the attack from Sinai BEFORE the attack took place. I believe it is the 2nd time I note this.
The attack on the PRC high command didn't kill any civilians.
Israel can't be held resposible for terrorist activity from Gaza, Israel can be held responsible only for legitimate retaliation from Gaza.
 
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Alexa is only pointing out that Israel is responsible for the rocket attacks because it is the one that decided to engage in a revenge operation without any indication that they were even taking revenge on the people responsible. Israel has often bombed parties other than the ones actually responsible for an attack. Seems they just like using said attacks to excuse actions they already planned to take.

Actually, she is making a complete mockery of the word "pacifist".

True Pacifists do not reserve the entirety of their bile for the targets of ethnically motivated murder while rationalizing the murders, themselves. Rather, they would be the first to stand up and proclaim that people SHOULDN'T murder. Alexa has not even indicated there there is anything wrong with murdering Jews, much less act as a true pacifist by opposing such.
 
Actually, she is making a complete mockery of the word "pacifist".

True Pacifists do not reserve the entirety of their bile for the targets of ethnically motivated murder while rationalizing the murders, themselves. Rather, they would be the first to stand up and proclaim that people SHOULDN'T murder. Alexa has not even indicated there there is anything wrong with murdering Jews, much less act as a true pacifist by opposing such.

The Jews who started settling in Palestine over a hundred years ago specifically to carve a state for themselves out of the territory of the native inhabitants were the ones who first made it about ethnicity. Your argument is much like that of a person who points to the behavior of certain black people today compared to the behavior of white people today in order to defend continued acts of oppression against all black people as being the product of what "those people" do to "us" as opposed to looking at where this behavior comes from.

How Arabs and Muslims have responded to Israel's decades of oppression and brutality is certainly not acceptable, but acting like this is some black-and-white situation where Israel is the defenseless little victim flips the reality on its head. It is Israel that has used various pseudo-legal and illegal methods to gradually erode away the territory that the natives possess. That Israel often does it with a slip of paper and a bulldozer or the mere threat of murder does not somehow absolve them of the moral consequences.

When a battered wife murders her husband the law doesn't think of her as a cold-hearted murderer because it recognizes that if you push someone enough they are liable to do anything. The fact the husband is the only one who wound up dead is irrelevant because of the psychological torture she endured. Of course, usually we still do not encourage, endorse, or support the wife in doing it because we still consider taking a life to be an immoral act. Understanding why people do things and having empathy is different from defending what they do.

A true pacifist is one who understands war and the frivolous reasons for which people wage it.
 
A true pacifist is one who understands war and the frivolous reasons for which people wage it.

A true pacifist is one who doesn't call the brutal murderous act that happened last week an "incident" and doesn't try to justify (or understand) attacks on civilian population by any form of injustice.
 
I see what you are doing there, war of atteration, if you say something long enough, people will finally give up correcting you.
.

No simply not allowing you to claim something is true when there is no evidence to that effect. However I did notice you yourself was doing the above and understand there is no point in debate when people will ignore all reality and refuse to debate points and multiple links raised.
 
Moderator's Warning:
I advise everyone to get back on-topic or there will be consequences.
 
A true pacifist is one who doesn't call the brutal murderous act that happened last week an "incident" and doesn't try to justify (or understand) attacks on civilian population by any form of injustice.

Is this link on me or on the situation in Gaza. First, let's be clear. I did not claim to be a pacifist. I am not. However I very rarely see the use of arms as the right move and believe it should only ever be done when people require this for self defence and all other avenues have been exhausted. That is another belief I do not quaver on. Just as I do not believe in believing people are guilty without evidence or 'price tag' attacks.

As for your problem with my using the word incident
1.
an individual occurrence or event.
2.
a distinct piece of action, or an episode, as in a story or play.
3.
something that occurs casually in connection with something else.
4.
something appertaining or attaching to something else.
5.
an occurrence of seemingly minor importance, especially involving nations or factions between which relations are strained and sensitive, that can lead to serious consequences, as an outbreak of hostilities or a war: border incident; international incident.

Incident | Define Incident at Dictionary.com

I see no porblem with my understanding of the word incidence and that it is an appropriate one in this instance.

Thirdly I never tried to justify the attacks on Israel. You believe you can bomb Gaza and kill people there with no comeback. My position was that the Palestinians would have served themselves better not to have retaliated, to have used restraint. However, I like everyone else knows that if Gaza is bombed, rockets are going to go the way of South Israel. That is reality. The Israel government knows it and the people in the rockets path know it. I said such a response was predictable.

Only where you demand it is all right to go in killing Gaza people, both people you claim are responsible for the incident in the Sinai and the civilians also killed, and not expect comeback, did I say to you that where you should be addressing your concerns is to your own government because the recent attacks were a direct result to attacks on Gaza by Israel in 'retaliation' for an incident in the Sinai which has no evidence to suggest it came from militants from Gaza. That is reality, like it or not.

You believe Israel has the right to bomb Gaza, regardless of having any evidence that people there were responsible for Sinai incident but you do not believe that people in Gaza have a right to fire back when their people have been killed. It is a double standard. When such double standards are eliminated, possibly a way for peace will have room to breathe.
 
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The Jews who started settling in Palestine over a hundred years ago specifically to carve a state for themselves out of the territory of the native inhabitants were the ones who first made it about ethnicity.

Play that revisionist song for someone else. Jews were and are as much native inhabitants of the Middle East as any Arab. In fact you show above how YOU repeat the classic Arab approach to Jews-you ignore their historic and native ties to the Middle East and make their ethnicity an issue by denying their identity and roots.

You clearly show above how the pith and substance of your arguement is nothing but the stale dated dhimmi approach to Jews.

Got news for you. Jews were and are native to Israel and as much as you will continue to deny this until you die they are going nowhere. Every time you deny their existence and historic roots to the land you make an issue out of Jews not Jews.

To say Jews are making an issue out of their being Jewish because you ignore their historic origins is not only illogical but it is absurd but then it is what many of us have come to expect and it fuels the anger of such people like Gardner who think people like you will never change and so they are justified in dismissing you.

This denial of the existence of Israel or the fact that Jews are native to Israel is precisely why
we have terrorist groups still intent on launching attacks calling on Israel to be wiped out and why Israel defends itself.
 
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Play that revisionist song for someone else. Jews were and are as much native inhabitants of the Middle East as any Arab. In fact you show above how YOU repeat the classic Arab approach to Jews-you ignore their historic and native ties to the Middle East and make their ethnicity an issue by denying their identity and roots.

You clearly show above how the pith and substance of your arguement is nothing but the stale dated dhimmi approach to Jews.

Got news for you. Jews were and are native to Israel and as much as you will continue to deny this until you die they are going nowhere. Every time you deny their existence and historic roots to the land you make an issue out of Jews not Jews.

To say Jews are making an issue out of their being Jewish because you ignore their historic origins is not only illogical but it is absurd but then it is what many of us have come to expect and it fuels the anger of such people like Gardner who think people like you will never change and so they are justified in dismissing you.

This denial of the existence of Israel or the fact that Jews are native to Israel is precisely why
we have terrorist groups still intent on launching attacks calling on Israel to be wiped out and why Israel defends itself.

I always get a kick out of the way people can use the word "Jerusalem", and then turn around and try to claim that the very group responsible for the name has no right to be there.
 
No simply not allowing you to claim something is true when there is no evidence to that effect. However I did notice you yourself was doing the above and understand there is no point in debate when people will ignore all reality and refuse to debate points and multiple links raised.

Israel just released results of the initial investigation, 3 Egyptian terrorists were in the attack, most of the terrorists came from Gaza
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4113302,00.html
 
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