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Child Support and arrear, parental right annulment and adoption

Aunt Spiker

Aunt Spiker

Cheese
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Moderate
Regardless of what happened in a marriage, how it ended or how many kids there are - I think the parent with the custody (or adoptive parent, etc) should have the option to end child support being garnished or to end arrears being garnished (back owed child support) at their discretion.

Do you feel this way? Should there be more opt-in/opt-out options for parents?

Here's my situation:
I left my ex a long time ago, he soon was tossed in jail on drug charges.
Years go by.
I did not want his money to help me raise my children. I was a single mother and struggled but managed, I was fine without child support.
I eventually married, my husband wanted me to pursue child support so I did. (Now I fully regret it). At the time of me actually pursuing support my ex husband did NOT have ANY children - none. He wasn't married, he was managing a pizza-shop.

I, of course, put that money towards the kid's needs - clothing and space camp, stuff like that, because it was all in excess of my husband's income. I also put quite a bit in savings, which is still there - there's been no need for me to touch it. Its the boy's money.
Off and on my ex would stop working - so the support was intermittent.

Now, because I was poor at the time that I left him - my case was always at the hands of the state to pursue, it was not up to me.
Once I pursued the state for support that opened the floodgates - they haven't left him alone since.

Personally, I feel kind of bad. Since I first pursued child support the state has threatened to take away his driver's license, toss him in the clink (because he owes over a certain amount) - but the only reason why he owes that much in arrears is because I didn't pursue it for years. It was not because he didn't want to be in their life, support them and so on - it was because I did not want him in their life, that was my stance.

Well, over a year ago my husband adopted my boys from my previous marriage and my ex annulled his parental rights which ended his ongoing child support, however, according to state laws, he still owes arrears. . . which is still in excess of 15,000.

My ex has 6 kids, now - and I know they're on state support and so on - so when we processed for the adoption last year I told my lawyer I didn't want to pursue arrears. My ex needs to be a father to the children he DOES have, now.

Well, according to state law - the arrears are being garnished for the kids, I have no right to end it. (That was news to me, I didn't expect that, actually).

As of right now it's been about 6 months since we received a support-payment. I'm not sweating it, my kid's aren't suffering - we do not need or depend on the arrears payments.

Well, the state just sent me forms to fill out for them to take my ex to COURT over the fact that he hasn't been working/paying arrears in the last 6 months and he owes a significant amount.

Obviously - I don't want to go to court.
I don't want anymore ex-husband drama, honestly. I divorced him 9 years ago.
I don't want my kids to somehow get wrapped up with my ex-husband's bruhah in court, either.

I want to end his arrears and basically annul the fact that he owed us anything - I don't want the state to keep going after him when the boys don't even NEED it. I want him to be a father to his children - not to mine.

So, I'm going to file the court-papers and contact my lawyer and move to have his arrears annulled - even though it's no legally my right to opt-out of claiming arrears I'm still going to pursue it, anyway.

So - after this long post - do you feel that I or other parents (Mom or Dad) should have the right to end arrears if they choose?
 
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You've got some loose income, right? Send him a check every month and have him send it back. No law says where the child support money has to come from-- and if he fails to send it back, you have a legitimate grievance for the State's harassment.

And I consider our "child support" system, along with much of our family law, to be a complete and utter travesty. People should have every right to refuse to become parents, and if someone is not acting as a parent to the child, then the parent who is should have every right to cut them loose.
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
You've got some loose income, right? Send him a check every month and have him send it back. No law says where the child support money has to come from-- and if he fails to send it back, you have a legitimate grievance for the State's harassment.

And I consider our "child support" system, along with much of our family law, to be a complete and utter travesty. People should have every right to refuse to become parents, and if someone is not acting as a parent to the child, then the parent who is should have every right to cut them loose.
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what a novel idea.
 
I'm only familiar with NY law, but here the general rule is that in most cases, parents are free to work out arrangements with each other for any amount at all. If one parent doesn't want to force the other to make payments, they don't have to.

The only exception to this, which sounds like may have come into play in your case, is where the custodial parent is receiving state benefit payments. In those cases, the child support is pursued not on behalf of the custodial parent, but on behalf of the state as a way of reimbursing the state for the money it gave to the custodial parent. In those cases, it wouldn't make sense to allow the custodial parent to drop the case, as it would create a huge incentive for couples to pretend to be separated in order for the custodial parent to get benefits while the noncustodial parent made child support payments on the side. In your case, it sounds like the state might be pursuing that money on the grounds that the father owes it to them.

I have no idea how it works in your jurisdiction, but here, if a mother did not want to cooperate, she didn't have to. That doesn't mean that the state would stop going after the father, but we didn't force the mothers to get involved with getting a lawyer, etc.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Regardless of what happened in a marriage, how it ended or how many kids there are - I think the parent with the custody (or adoptive parent, etc) should have the option to end child support being garnished or to end arrears being garnished (back owed child support) at their discretion.

Do you feel this way? Should there be more opt-in/opt-out options for parents?

Here's my situation:
I left my ex a long time ago, he soon was tossed in jail on drug charges.
Years go by.
I did not want his money to help me raise my children. I was a single mother and struggled but managed, I was fine without child support.
I eventually married, my husband wanted me to pursue child support so I did. (Now I fully regret it). At the time of me actually pursuing support my ex husband did NOT have ANY children - none. He wasn't married, he was managing a pizza-shop.

I, of course, put that money towards the kid's needs - clothing and space camp, stuff like that, because it was all in excess of my husband's income. I also put quite a bit in savings, which is still there - there's been no need for me to touch it. Its the boy's money.
Off and on my ex would stop working - so the support was intermittent.

Now, because I was poor at the time that I left him - my case was always at the hands of the state to pursue, it was not up to me.
Once I pursued the state for support that opened the floodgates - they haven't left him alone since.

Personally, I feel kind of bad. Since I first pursued child support the state has threatened to take away his driver's license, toss him in the clink (because he owes over a certain amount) - but the only reason why he owes that much in arrears is because I didn't pursue it for years. It was not because he didn't want to be in their life, support them and so on - it was because I did not want him in their life, that was my stance.

Well, over a year ago my husband adopted my boys from my previous marriage and my ex annulled his parental rights which ended his ongoing child support, however, according to state laws, he still owes arrears. . . which is still in excess of 15,000.

My ex has 6 kids, now - and I know they're on state support and so on - so when we processed for the adoption last year I told my lawyer I didn't want to pursue arrears. My ex needs to be a father to the children he DOES have, now.

Well, according to state law - the arrears are being garnished for the kids, I have no right to end it. (That was news to me, I didn't expect that, actually).

As of right now it's been about 6 months since we received a support-payment. I'm not sweating it, my kid's aren't suffering - we do not need or depend on the arrears payments.

Well, the state just sent me forms to fill out for them to take my ex to COURT over the fact that he hasn't been working/paying arrears in the last 6 months and he owes a significant amount.

Obviously - I don't want to go to court.
I don't want anymore ex-husband drama, honestly. I divorced him 9 years ago.
I don't want my kids to somehow get wrapped up with my ex-husband's bruhah in court, either.

I want to end his arrears and basically annul the fact that he owed us anything - I don't want the state to keep going after him when the boys don't even NEED it. I want him to be a father to his children - not to mine.

So, I'm going to file the court-papers and contact my lawyer and move to have his arrears annulled - even though it's no legally my right to opt-out of claiming arrears I'm still going to pursue it, anyway.

So - after this long post - do you feel that I or other parents (Mom or Dad) should have the right to end arrears if they choose?
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to the point--If it was your idea to take the Kids from him, and didn't want them to be together with what I'm sure meant more to Him, than anything in the whole wide world. Then you should pay him back every dime. He has lost His children, and now everything else if what you say is correct. All because, for what ever reason, you left.
 
Skateguy said:
to the point--If it was your idea to take the Kids from him, and didn't want them to be together with what I'm sure meant more to Him, than anything in the whole wide world. Then you should pay him back every dime. He has lost His children, and now everything else if what you say is correct. All because, for what ever reason, you left.
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right, that's why he let another man adopt his kids.
 
Skateguy said:
to the point--If it was your idea to take the Kids from him, and didn't want them to be together with what I'm sure meant more to Him, than anything in the whole wide world. Then you should pay him back every dime. He has lost His children, and now everything else if what you say is correct. All because, for what ever reason, you left.
Click to expand...

Did you miss this part?

I left my ex a long time ago, he soon was tossed in jail on drug charges.
Click to expand...

Unless you're trying to say that couples who have children should never be allowed to split up, your argument doesn't make much sense.
 
Skateguy - based on what I wrote you make a fair assumption. If he loved those children and I denied their relationship with him and hurt him by taking them away then you'd have the right idea.

However, that's not how things happened. He became a drug addict, abusive and abandoned us before I finally, officially, left him - I doubt there was much in his mind other than the next fix for a long while.

If he wanted a relationship with his kids he could have pursued me for it and easily won a case for visitation even though I would have been pissy about it. After he was released from prison he landed a stable job and earned good pay (I didn't know about it at the time, sure) but he could have showed he changed and had become a better person and was no longer an abusive drug addict. . . and then I would have been ok with him being involved in their life.
The reason I didn't want the children wrapped up with him was because of his drug use and abuse - no other reason.

When I eventually approached him to have his rights annulled so my husband could adopt the boys he didn't care - he more than happily signed on the line and though we ended up having quite a few conversations about legal procedures and so forth not once did he ask "how are the kids." It didn't bother me, the kids didn't care at all, and he and I both though it would also end the arrears. My husband was he parent to my children, I presumed this would be good for my ex so he could be a proper unhindered parent to all of his new children - we were both surprised to find that the state would continue to garnish.

So, yeah, I could easily be made out to be horrible - but he didn't want to see the kids as much as I didn't want him to see the kids so until I changed my thought process it wasn't a big deal.

I'll go forward with my idea of ending the arrears garnishments and if the state denies that then I'll simply send the checks back to him. Regardless of what happened *before* - now there should be no real reason why I can't end the arrears and let him actually be a good parent - 6 kids is a lot and though the payments are small to us they'd be significant to them.
 
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liblady said:
right, that's why he let another man adopt his kids.
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It don't sound like to me, He has much say in the matter from the get go. I've been in that boat. they don't ask my permission on anything. they act, then I have to try and fight what has already been done.
 
RightinNYC said:
Did you miss this part?



Unless you're trying to say that couples who have children should never be allowed to split up, your argument doesn't make much sense.
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Once again, couples should be able to split up. the details of what would take place during that split up, should be detailed in advance of the actual marriage contract. so a person will know what to expect later. However, the one choosing to leave, should not be allowed to just take the Kids with them, like thy are exclusively their property. Unless it is agreeable to the Party who does not leave. there should be severe penalties for breaking a marriage contract, not the reward of taking the Kids, and getting paid for doing so.
 
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Aunt Spiker said:
Skateguy - based on what I wrote you make a fair assumption. If he loved those children and I denied their relationship with him and hurt him by taking them away then you'd have the right idea.

However, that's not how things happened. He became a drug addict, abusive and abandoned us before I finally, officially, left him - I doubt there was much in his mind other than the next fix for a long while.

If he wanted a relationship with his kids he could have pursued me for it and easily won a case for visitation even though I would have been pissy about it. After he was released from prison he landed a stable job and earned good pay (I didn't know about it at the time, sure) but he could have showed he changed and had become a better person and was no longer an abusive drug addict. . . and then I would have been ok with him being involved in their life.
The reason I didn't want the children wrapped up with him was because of his drug use and abuse - no other reason.

When I eventually approached him to have his rights annulled so my husband could adopt the boys he didn't care - he more than happily signed on the line and though we ended up having quite a few conversations about legal procedures and so forth not once did he ask "how are the kids." It didn't bother me, the kids didn't care at all, and he and I both though it would also end the arrears. My husband was he parent to my children, I presumed this would be good for my ex so he could be a proper unhindered parent to all of his new children - we were both surprised to find that the state would continue to garnish.

So, yeah, I could easily be made out to be horrible - but he didn't want to see the kids as much as I didn't want him to see the kids so until I changed my thought process it wasn't a big deal.

I'll go forward with my idea of ending the arrears garnishments and if the state denies that then I'll simply send the checks back to him. Regardless of what happened *before* - now there should be no real reason why I can't end the arrears and let him actually be a good parent - 6 kids is a lot and though the payments are small to us they'd be significant to them.
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that is a different story of course. But it sounds like as with most things, there are more than your side to the story. with out hearing his view on the events as they unfolded, I would say, --I feel for the Kids.
 
Skateguy said:
Once again, couples should be able to split up. the details of what would take place during that split up, should be detailed in advance of the actual marriage contract. so a person will know what to expect later. However, the one choosing to leave, should not be allowed to just take the Kids with them, like thy are exclusively their property. Unless it is agreeable to the Party who does not leave. there should be severe penalties for breaking a marriage contract, not the reward of taking the Kids, and getting paid for doing so.
Click to expand...

Skateguy said:
that is a different story of course. But it sounds like as with most things, there are more than your side to the story. with out hearing his view on the events as they unfolded, I would say, --I feel for the Kids.
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Without delving into details and going about trashing his family and his lifestyle in the long gone past I'll just stand firm knowing my kids are well balanced and much better off because I severed all ties with him and his family. They have benefited. There was nothing positive there - as is evident from what has happened to that part of their family since I left and the children who were in the family (cousins and so forth) and the horrible paths they've been led down in life.

My ex was squared away for a while, it seemed, after he was released. I didn't know about it for years and presumed that once released, if he wanted, he would have contacted me for visitation seeing as how his incarceration was the reason why shared custody and visitation was denied during the divorce process.
I am talking years back on this - but after I found out he was out of jail and doing good I hoped he'd have a relationship with them, but he didn't want to.

Anyway - that's not the point. My point is that he shouldn't have to OWE arrears because I was not pursuing child support and that was my own choice. I pursued child support, received little, and decided it wasn't necessary - we all agreed, even my ex, that my husband was an excellent father and him adopting the boys was a great idea.
However, the state decided that his 'owed' child support still stood - which I disagree with - fortunately he hasn't really paid any (I'm presuming he's not working, or he's in another state - I don't know anymore). And I'm not pursuing him, the state is - which I, also, don't agree with.

Having been granted full custody of them from the beginning I was surprised to find that they were still keeping a tally of his "owed child support" - even when he wasn't even employed predating when I did decide to pursue child support.

My original point is that it should be my choice to end it - the state wasn't garnishing his paycheck until I pursued support . . . and now they're saying I can't stop what I started, which is bull.

I don't feel bad for my children - I feel bad for his children. My children are doing great, they have a father and a solid family - no worries here. But my ex has 6 children who need as much support and a positive role model as he can be and the state's legal-crap is causing them more trouble which was not my intention. . . it was not my intention because when I did pursue, he didn't have children. But, now that things have changed - I feel it's actually against his children's interest to apparently favor mine over his, which is bull. Shouldn't the state WANT to agree with me on this and WANT him to support all of his children he has, now? I would presume that would be their true interest.
 
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Back on focus - what if you didn't know the details at all about me? Don't focus on my version - I'm not the only parent (dad or mom) who is at the receiving end of garnished arrears and doesn't want it.

Shouldn't any parent who does not want to receive support/arrears - especially if a current spouse has adopted and the former parent has annulled rights - shouldn't that parent be allowed to end whatever support they are/were or might be getting?

I think all parents should be able to opt-out of receiving payments, eventhough the states argue that "it's not for the parents, it's for the kids" - really, come on. . . parents should be allowed to say no if they see fit, yes?
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
You've got some loose income, right? Send him a check every month and have him send it back. No law says where the child support money has to come from-- and if he fails to send it back, you have a legitimate grievance for the State's harassment.

And I consider our "child support" system, along with much of our family law, to be a complete and utter travesty. People should have every right to refuse to become parents, and if someone is not acting as a parent to the child, then the parent who is should have every right to cut them loose.
Click to expand...

After reading her story, I was going to similarly suggest just sending all or part of the child support back to him each month.
That way, the two of you could just keep bouncing the same couple of hundred dollars back and forth, and it wouldn't cost anybody anything.

Spike, I like your attitude.
It reminds me a lot of me and my ex.
We've always remained friends, and I wouldn't ever want to do anything to hurt him.
When you have kids together, maintaining good will is always a prudent idea, because neither of you know when you might need a favor of some sort from the other in the future.
And this doesn't end, even after your kids are grown.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Back on focus - what if you didn't know the details at all about me? Don't focus on my version - I'm not the only parent (dad or mom) who is at the receiving end of garnished arrears and doesn't want it.

Shouldn't any parent who does not want to receive support/arrears - especially if a current spouse has adopted and the former parent has annulled rights - shouldn't that parent be allowed to end whatever support they are/were or might be getting?

I think all parents should be able to opt-out of receiving payments, eventhough the states argue that "it's not for the parents, it's for the kids" - really, come on. . . parents should be allowed to say no if they see fit, yes?
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From what you post, you seem reasonable and well balanced.---the problem may not be so much yours, as with the whole Marriage institution. Once the Courts are involved, it is often out of our hands. I'm a firm believer in a Pre nup, just to prevent things from going from bad to worse, when people figure things aren't working out as planned. there are many broken homes, and broken people, because their little dream of a happy life together came tumbling down around them. --At that point, we are at the mercy of the courts, if there is no written contract, to cover such events.
 
Well - preventative measures are only so good as the people who think of them. We married when we were just teens and we were just stupid idiots. At some point the state needs to recognize that people should be allowed to decide to truly go their own ways seeing as how the state has no qualms with anyone choosing to be married. Just because we had two children together doesn't mean we have to be tethered.

I feel that the state being firm in their "side" of it is making his situation more complicated for him - I'm not sure what happened but obviously he's not employed anymore. Why would he bother working seeing as how he's still being garnished for arrears which he shouldn't be paying? It seems, now, to be a deterrent to being a good parent rather than encouragement. I actually hope he did leave the state and got a job elsewhere and is able to put all his income towards his children rather than having the state take away part - even if I received more payments and immediately returned them to him it would still be a lapse of a few weeks - sure, it could be routine but still hoopla bull**** that shouldn't even be necessary.

My lawyer suggested that if I want to return the money to the family for the sake of his children that I actually return it in the form of a gift card for a grocery store or such until this issue is resolved - rather than just giving a check which might be spent unwisely or even by the wrong person.

His suggestion didn't come from a legal standpoint - but from a lawyer thought that it's likely he'll fall back onto drugs if he is just given money - I thought it peculiar advice, though, seeing as how what I want is to severe ties and just let him be responsible with it - whatever he does with his money shouldn't be my concern. Maybe I'm naive, but I believe people can change and the fact that he's still in their life, even after all the drama I've caused, he's trying to do the right thing and I doubt he wants to toss it away like happened in the past. I'm not worried about it.

Now what I need to do is try to find him to approach him with this issue and explain what I'm going to try to do.
 
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there are many Men, living the rest of their lives on the run, due to a marriage gone bad. There are few things that can ruin a person like a bad marriage can. Never again for me, that much I'm sure of.
 
Skateguy said:
It don't sound like to me, He has much say in the matter from the get go. I've been in that boat. they don't ask my permission on anything. they act, then I have to try and fight what has already been done.
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your children cannot be adopted without your permission in ordinary circumstances.
 
liblady said:
your children cannot be adopted without your permission in ordinary circumstances.
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In a contested Divorce or custody hearing, there are not "Ordinary circumstances". ---They can also not be given residency in another state without your permission.---But if they do it anyway, then the out come is decided by a court, once the case ever get to court. Which will cost a fortune, and take months, if not years to settle. People can actually do what ever they want to do. Then it is up to the defendant, to take the situation to court, to try to get the court to help them. and if there are children involve, there can be new filings every six months, for ever. --bottom line, when you run out of money, you run out of law, and you loose.----I took out loans, and spent more than $30,000 and still lost My Son, My Home, My shop and most everything else I had. So take a chance on marriage, it will teach you a good lesson about life, and people in genreal.
 
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Speaking as a child of divorce whose parents have visible tension ever since, mostly regarding late child-support and the issues that come along with it, I personally wish some sort of enforcement was placed on my father to pay his arrears.

We were in a bit of a different position. My mother depended on the money he sent her each month to get by on the bills. She did an amazing job budgeting her paychecks to keep my brother and I in the dark about the fact that we weren't doing great financially but I know that my father was often late on his payments and because of that we struggled.

I think that the custodial parent should have the option of accepting or annulling the back payments based on their financial needs as well as the well-being of their children both monetarily and emotionally. It sounds like in your position that the father didn't want to be a part of his kids life, but if that is something a non-custodial parent wants they should be prepared to help with support.
 
liblady said:
your children cannot be adopted without your permission in ordinary circumstances.
Click to expand...

In some states after a certain amount of time goes by the state can consider one's rights forfeited if they haven't had contact with the children - their signature or permission isn't necessary.

In the same way that a divorce can be granted without hesitation if a couple had been separated for a considerable amount of time.
 
ktay88 said:
Speaking as a child of divorce whose parents have visible tension ever since, mostly regarding late child-support and the issues that come along with it, I personally wish some sort of enforcement was placed on my father to pay his arrears.

We were in a bit of a different position. My mother depended on the money he sent her each month to get by on the bills. She did an amazing job budgeting her paychecks to keep my brother and I in the dark about the fact that we weren't doing great financially but I know that my father was often late on his payments and because of that we struggled.

I think that the custodial parent should have the option of accepting or annulling the back payments based on their financial needs as well as the well-being of their children both monetarily and emotionally. It sounds like in your position that the father didn't want to be a part of his kids life, but if that is something a non-custodial parent wants they should be prepared to help with support.
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I feel your pain. The whole Marriage, and divorce institution should revisited, and gotten up to speed with the reality of things as they are today. I love Kids, and hate to see them suffer in any way.---I never say anything bad about my Exs to my Sons. But they have told my Sons lies about me, to justify their actions. That truly hurts my Sons because they know us both. You can't fool your own children. they know us better than anyone. This is bad form, and should never be done. Adults need to maybe read up on what being an adult means, and it's more than being old enough to buy beer.
 
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