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Making jail harder for criminals only makes better criminals

Lightdemon

Lightdemon

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Hatuey said:
Making jail harder for criminals only makes better criminals.
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This thread is a fragmentation of what Hatuey said about the conditions inside of jails and about "prison culture" in general.

What Hatuey said makes a lot of sense to me (from a behaviorist point of view). If criminals in jails are exposed to harsh conditions, they'll naturally find ways to adapt and find ways to survive. If the conditions inside the jail is similar to conditions in poor urban areas (i.e. formation of gangs, paternalistic leadership, aversive to authority or police, distrustful of law enforcement, etc.), then the one who survives these conditions will use the skills learned in prison to become even more effective criminals.

Do you think this is accurate? /discuss
 
totally. and what some don't seem to grasp is, one day all those Convicts will be free to move amongst us again. No need to make them even madder than they were before being incarcerated. ---Not a bad Idea to teach them a trade, while they are in there, in my opinion. Folks act differently, when they can support themselves legally.
 
OxymoronP said:
Jail should be a reform aparatus, and the elimination of drug offenders would do wonders in that regard.
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I'm pretty sure it use to be. but now it is just punishment, and confinement. One of my oldest Friends is a guard at Huntsville prison. --You don't want to be locked up there.
 
I've never understood how taking away most of what makes us human from certain individuals is supposed to reform them. If anything, the longer they stay on the inside, the less compatible they become with the outside. The world changes pretty fast these days.

Even in the times I have travelled away from home for a year or more, I come back and see changes... in places, in the people I know. I can't imagine being removed from that for, say, a decade, all the while being stripped of human things, and then be expected to act all rehabilitated.

All it does it surround criminals with more criminals in a dog-eat-dog environment, causing them to turn to crime and violence for protection, needs, and survival.
 
So we should just give them all the comforts that non-criminals have on the outside? Give me a frigging break!

The nicer the digs? The more people are gonna try to get in. There are folks that break the law to get locked up so as not to spend a cold, starving night on the street.
 
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I don't buy it. Making prison harder doesn't make ex-cons any smarter, able or competent in committing crimes when they are released. It may toughen them up and make them more resistant to and able to endure hardship, but it doesn't make them more effective at breaking the law.

Tougher prison treatment doesn't improve the efficacy of criminals.
 
What everyone seems to be forgetting is that criminals are locked up to protect society from them......;)
It's what's good for society, not what's good for them....;)
 
Notice how people that aren't facing Prison time, have a whole other view of how prisons should be run. I'm sure they would have the same response, if they were facing 5 years in February. ---Easy to pass judgment on others, as long as it don't come home to roost.
 
Skateguy said:
Notice how people that aren't facing Prison time, have a whole other view of how prisons should be run. I'm sure they would have the same response, if they were facing 5 years in February. ---Easy to pass judgment on others, as long as it don't come home to roost.
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Of course, because they are not criminals......;)
Why anyone should be compassionate to criminal scum is beyond me.....:roll:
 
Partisan said:
Of course, because they are not criminals......;)
Why anyone should be compassionate to criminal scum is beyond me.....:roll:
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So you actually believe that everyone in Prison is a Criminal?? do you have any idea how many are there, because they were to poor to provide themselves with good Legal representation, and were just walked by the Judge in groups of 7, all shackled and cuffed together, and them marched off to prison. Hope you never have to find out. --I'm sure they would love your compassion. As I'm sure you would share your thoughts with them on how all Convicts are all scum.
 
Kali said:
So we should just give them all the comforts that non-criminals have on the outside? Give me a frigging break!
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No. We should incarcerate them and give them socialization skills and job training and psychological/psychiatric counseling. What good is punishing a criminal if we don't take away the reasons why they committed a crime? If we don't provide them with the tools they need to be a law-abiding productive member of society, all they're going to do is commit more crimes and cause more trouble.

While I admit that not every criminal is a nice guy and many of those in jail deserve to be there, I advocate that not everybody who's in there deserves such a treatment.

For instance, I have a friend who was arrested for driving with a suspended license and went to county jail for 6 months. Because of that, he has a hard time finding a job, especially from corporate franchise businesses who make it a matter of policy not to hire ex-felons. That makes it more difficult for him to get a job.

So considering how much we punish criminals after they serve their time, I can understand why many of them go back to it to make a living.

Kali said:
The nicer the digs? The more people are gonna try to get in. There are folks that break the law to get locked up so as not to spend a cold, starving night on the street.
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So? Personally, I wouldn't mind villages out in the middle of nowhere where sociopaths and other people can be forced into staying so they can have the discipline they need. Some people just aren't able to live on their own without outside discipline and structure. A lot of people who are on drugs are like that. They can stay off of drugs if they stay in jail, but as soon as they're out on their own and away from that structure, they go back to bad habits.

That's why I advocate the making of communities that can provide that structure and discipline criminals who have served their time need to be more productive. They wouldn't be mandatory in any way and the people there can leave if they find it abusive, but otherwise the community gives them a local job. I don't know if this has ever been attempted before, but it's an idea I've had.
 
samsmart said:
No. We should incarcerate them and give them socialization skills and job training and psychological/psychiatric counseling. What good is punishing a criminal if we don't take away the reasons why they committed a crime? If we don't provide them with the tools they need to be a law-abiding productive member of society, all they're going to do is commit more crimes and cause more trouble.

While I admit that not every criminal is a nice guy and many of those in jail deserve to be there, I advocate that not everybody who's in there deserves such a treatment.

For instance, I have a friend who was arrested for driving with a suspended license and went to county jail for 6 months. Because of that, he has a hard time finding a job, especially from corporate franchise businesses who make it a matter of policy not to hire ex-felons. That makes it more difficult for him to get a job.

So considering how much we punish criminals after they serve their time, I can understand why many of them go back to it to make a living.



So? Personally, I wouldn't mind villages out in the middle of nowhere where sociopaths and other people can be forced into staying so they can have the discipline they need. Some people just aren't able to live on their own without outside discipline and structure. A lot of people who are on drugs are like that. They can stay off of drugs if they stay in jail, but as soon as they're out on their own and away from that structure, they go back to bad habits.

That's why I advocate the making of communities that can provide that structure and discipline criminals who have served their time need to be more productive. They wouldn't be mandatory in any way and the people there can leave if they find it abusive, but otherwise the community gives them a local job. I don't know if this has ever been attempted before, but it's an idea I've had.
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You Sir are a Good Person. I wish you the very best.
 
samsmart said:
For instance, I have a friend who was arrested for driving with a suspended license and went to county jail for 6 months. Because of that, he has a hard time finding a job, especially from corporate franchise businesses who make it a matter of policy not to hire ex-felons. That makes it more difficult for him to get a job.
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Since when is driving on a suspended a license a felony???
 
ScummyD said:
Since when is driving on a suspended a license a felony???
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It depends on the circumstances, for instance if it's the 3rd time caught driving on a suspended license, and the state.
 
One would be surprised at what can be considered a "felony" if you don't have a good attorney to contest the charges. ----I know plenty of cases. Some people should spend some time in jail., just for the experience. It will open those tear swelled eyes for ya.
 
Partisan said:
What everyone seems to be forgetting is that criminals are locked up to protect society from them......;)
It's what's good for society, not what's good for them....;)
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People that go away for life for major crimes like murder, rape, etc. don't really need the best we have to offer because there is no way we are ever letting them free; but when felons, tax evaders, and petty thieves get put in with the worst criminals, they aren't going to be reformed. They're going to come out worse for it.

It doesn't make sense to lump all criminals into the same punitive system. Some can be rehabilitated, especially the young.
 
Skateguy said:
One would be surprised at what can be considered a "felony" if you don't have a good attorney to contest the charges. ----I know plenty of cases. Some people should spend some time in jail., just for the experience. It will open those tear swelled eyes for ya.
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This is so true. Someone close to me is going through something akin to this right now. His whole life has been upended and he is being severely punished even though he's not even gone to trial, much less been convicted of a single thing. What a nightmare. :(

Before this situation occurred, I didn't exactly have the utmost confidence in our system, and the events of this case has done nothing to change my mind, rather only reinforced and strengthened my hatred for law enforcement, and especially those who work in the social services field. Never in my life have I seen such incompetence until now. :mad:

Thankfully, he has an excellent lawyer. I can only sit and keep my fingers crossed that things will turn out for the best so that he and his family can move past this injustice.

 
Partisan said:
Of course, because they are not criminals......;)
Why anyone should be compassionate to criminal scum is beyond me.....:roll:
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This isn't about compassion. It's about being preemptive and being proactive, rather than reactive. If prison conditions weren't about "punishing" prisoners, and instead about rehabilitating them, it would be good for society, not just the prisoners.
 
I know people who were arrested for a crime, but never officially charged, and after a few hours, were released from jail. ---they have the fact they were "arrested" for the crime on their record just the same. And is assumed when a back round check is done, that they were guilty, and just cut a deal.---but that was not the case. The guilty party was later apprehended.----Once it is on your record, it is there. Every one in Prison is not a criminal. some are just victims of circumstance.
 
O.K We should simply "coddle: these folks and make sure they get the shrink help they need-which probably will not work if they are not interested. Do you know how many people out here need therapy that cannot afford to go? Sure. Lets baby these jerks, try to see what is going on in their mind, feed em, give em clothes, etc. In the meantime there are law abiding citizens who could use this help more than these low life scums that will be back.

Forgive me if I do not feel a coddle is the right way to go about handling someone who ends up in jail. Forgive me if I really do not want them sucking on my taxdollar teet.
 
samsmart said:
It depends on the circumstances, for instance if it's the 3rd time caught driving on a suspended license, and the state.
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If it's their third time driving on a suspended then I would never hire that person because they clearly show a disregard for the law so why should I believe they would treat the rules and regulations of my company with any more respect?
 
Skateguy said:
One would be surprised at what can be considered a "felony" if you don't have a good attorney to contest the charges. -
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Uh, what is and what is not a felony is already established in law regardless of the nature and quality of the counselor before the bench.
 
Kali said:
O.K We should simply "coddle: these folks and make sure they get the shrink help they need-which probably will not work if they are not interested. Do you know how many people out here need therapy that cannot afford to go? Sure. Lets baby these jerks, try to see what is going on in their mind, feed em, give em clothes, etc. In the meantime there are law abiding citizens who could use this help more than these low life scums that will be back.

Forgive me if I do not feel a coddle is the right way to go about handling someone who ends up in jail. Forgive me if I really do not want them sucking on my taxdollar teet.
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Well said, I didn't think you had it in you!......:applaud
 
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