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If I were Impeaching or Indicting Trump...

Thanks. Clearly I need to be more specific in what I was thinking about when I started:

First, impeachment is a legal action that has political aspects. I readily acknowledge that. It can be used for political advantage, but I think largely unsuccessfully (see, Clinton impeachment). It was, in my view, the political aspects that delayed the process, rather than the strength of the legal case. If the legal case is strong enough, it should overcome the political issue (although that seems less likely in the present circumstance). In that regard, it is unimportant to me whether the Senate does its duty with regard to the present articles.

Second, impeachment is not about crime. It is fundamentally about abuse of office. I could spend (and have spent) considerable time belaboring this point (and have on other threads). That is, in fact, why I titled this thread as I did: impeachment and indictment are different processes, with different considerations. But, I readily acknowledge that the terminology of the impeachment provisions of the Constitution are confusing. It requires a lot of historical context to explain it. In short, "High Crimes and Misdemeanors" really didn't mean "crimes" in the literal sense. Treason, Bribery and High Crimes and Misdemeanors are all offenses against the polity, abuses of the "high office" to which one has been elevated.

Third, I included in my comments that I was a prosecutor, not as a boast, but, as Mycroft pointed out, because I come to the question with a different mindset. I look at the law, and the facts, and puzzle out how they fit together in the circumstances. It is an intellectual exercise.

With that in mind, I will give some of my views:
In charging documents (impeachment or indictment) there are general categories (charge, article), and specifics (counts). There are two "Articles" presently, but several paragraphs that allege specifics. E.g., one could be charged/impeached for "Bribery", with several specific "incidents" that fall under the same heading. "Emoluments" could fall under that category, as it involves private gain from the public trust.

The 2 Impeachment Articles do not allege "crimes" in the statutory sense, because they shouldn't. Indeed, if one looks at the history of impeachment in the United States you'll learn that they don't. Occasionally there is an overlap (as with "bribery" or "perjury") which causes confusion, but the gravamen of the charge is abuse of office, not a technical legal crime - which has to be adjudicated separately, as the Constitution explicitly states.

I understand all of that.
That really does not address how the House voted down party lines and it is expected if the articles make it to the Senate the vote will go Party lines. Same data. Maybe more in the Senate. Two different outcomes. Hint, it is all political.
 
Oh great! So can all the posts I got dinged and banned for be expunged because they were directed at posts and not people?

I'm not a Mod, but I would point out that complaining about Mod actions in threads is itself a violation of posting rules.
 
I understand all of that.
That really does not address how the House voted down party lines and it is expected if the articles make it to the Senate the vote will go Party lines. Same data. Maybe more in the Senate. Two different outcomes. Hint, it is all political.

I don't disagree that this is being made a partisan exercise when it shouldn't be. I addressed that question in a previous thread: Impeachment as a non-partisan action. I still believe that there are legitimate bases for impeachment of Trump that are non-political in nature. I revere the Constitution, and he is abusing it regularly, in almost every way imaginable. I have lived a life promoting the "Rule of Law" in the United States and overseas, and he doesn't respect it at all, except as a tool to frustrate his enemies. This thread is intended as a way to focus attention on those legal and constitutional aspects of the process, rather than the political.
 
I'm not a Mod, but I would point out that complaining about Mod actions in threads is itself a violation of posting rules.

I got banned for three days on here for making a snark comment I thought was funny at the time. Never forget the forum mods control everything you see or say.
 
I got banned for three days on here for making a snark comment I thought was funny at the time. Never forget the forum mods control everything you see or say.

Exactly. So... behave.
 
I understand all of that.
That really does not address how the House voted down party lines and it is expected if the articles make it to the Senate the vote will go Party lines. Same data. Maybe more in the Senate. Two different outcomes. Hint, it is all political.

Because it was clear articles of impeachment would pass, the House Republican leadership allowed about 10 vulnerable members to simply not vote - as it would not affect the outcome. The rule was, though, no Republican would vote FOR the articles, or risk expulsion. I'll note, too, that Justin Amash voted for, and he is not a Democrat - having already jumped ship out of principle. That's all about party discipline, not the merits. Same with McConnell and his craven comments.
 
There has been significant discussion on other threads, in the news, around the holiday table, about why the impeachment articles do not reference the Mueller report. Some want to argue that it is because there is nothing there to impeach over. As a former prosecutor, I know better than that. My challenge, for the DP community is this: If it were you, what would you charge? Why, or why not? Even Trump supporters can chime in, as long as they are respectful and willing to address the facts. I would have done it differently - I would have used the Mueller report as my starting point. But, we are past that now, as there are already impeachment articles. Where would you go from here?

IMHO, the two Articles of Impeachment have more than enough evidentiary materials and witness testimony to convict.

The House Dems strived to limit Impeachment Articles to charges that all Americans could readily comprehend. The Mueller Report is too complex for most Americans.
 
If I was impeaching Trump I'd have to come up with a crime he committed first. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

That ship has sailed. Unless the Democrats are seriously repudiated, impeachment will become SOP when the US House and the Presidency are of different parties.
 
Because it was clear articles of impeachment would pass, the House Republican leadership allowed about 10 vulnerable members to simply not vote - as it would not affect the outcome. The rule was, though, no Republican would vote FOR the articles, or risk expulsion. I'll note, too, that Justin Amash voted for, and he is not a Democrat - having already jumped ship out of principle. That's all about party discipline, not the merits. Same with McConnell and his craven comments.

You do realize that most of what you post states the impeachment of Trump is political.
 
You do realize that most of what you post states the impeachment of Trump is political.

Actually, no, it's not. The opposition to impeachment is obviously and blatantly political. There is a significant difference. Most of what I have posted is about the legal and factual bases for impeachment/indictment. Indeed, that's what the thread is about. What charges did you think are appropriate, based upon what you know?
 
There is nothing Trump can be impeached for that virtually every prior president did not do - and most did so more and more often.
 
There is nothing Trump can be impeached for that virtually every prior president did not do - and most did so more and more often.
That may or may not be true.
In either case, it doesn't mean that any of them deserve a pass — not even this one.
 
I can be a bit raw at times agreed but then people take shots at me too. I've never been one to bother the mods with reporting this guy or that person disrespected me or called me by my wrong gender pronoun. You think I should?
This board is very lightly moderated.
If you get an infraction here, you had it coming.
Accept that your actions had more of a role in it than your "direction".
...personal responsibility and all that...
 
There has been significant discussion on other threads, in the news, around the holiday table, about why the impeachment articles do not reference the Mueller report. Some want to argue that it is because there is nothing there to impeach over. As a former prosecutor, I know better than that. My challenge, for the DP community is this: If it were you, what would you charge? Why, or why not? Even Trump supporters can chime in, as long as they are respectful and willing to address the facts. I would have done it differently - I would have used the Mueller report as my starting point. But, we are past that now, as there are already impeachment articles. Where would you go from here?

Congress is full of lawyers, some even prosecutors. So why didn't they use Mueller Report? What do they know that you don't or what do you know that they don't?
 
If I was impeaching Trump I'd have to come up with a crime he committed first. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
No-brainitis is pandemic amongst Democrats.
 
There has been significant discussion on other threads, in the news, around the holiday table, about why the impeachment articles do not reference the Mueller report. Some want to argue that it is because there is nothing there to impeach over. As a former prosecutor, I know better than that. My challenge, for the DP community is this: If it were you, what would you charge? Why, or why not? Even Trump supporters can chime in, as long as they are respectful and willing to address the facts. I would have done it differently - I would have used the Mueller report as my starting point. But, we are past that now, as there are already impeachment articles. Where would you go from here?

The Trump supporters see nothing wrong in the conversation with Ukraine. They feel he was looking into interference in the 2016 campaign.
The Trump haters feel he was getting dirt on a 2020 candidate.
There is no evidence of his intent either way.

What is hypocritical is the left says nothing about what Biden did to withhold aid in exchange for Ukraine firing it’s prosecutor. There is nothing said from the left about DNC dealing with a foreign agent during the 2016 campaign or the spying on an opposition campaign.

Personally I see no evidence that is enough to remove a president from office. Every president has ignored Congressional subpoena and every president can be said to abuse their power. Even senators and congress has abused its power.
 
Actually, no, it's not. The opposition to impeachment is obviously and blatantly political. There is a significant difference. Most of what I have posted is about the legal and factual bases for impeachment/indictment. Indeed, that's what the thread is about. What charges did you think are appropriate, based upon what you know?

From one of your posts.
"I. Bribery
II. Abuse of Office
III. Obstruction of Congress
IV. Obstruction of Justice

There are numerous specific "counts" that would fall within each:
I. A: Ukraine course of conduct
B: Emoluments violations (Trump International; Doral G-7)
C: Golf trips to personal property at government expense
II. A: Withholding Ukraine aid
B: Redirecting appropriations
C: Seeking private gain from public actions
D: Pardon abuse
III. A: Each separate violation of subpoenas and more than a dozen tweets
B: Intimidation of witnesses
C: Other such incidents
IV. A: Mueller Report counts (about 8)
B: Lying to Mueller (perjury in Interrogatories)"

What I see is a personal list derived from some information that is available to the public.

IA. With what is known, I do not see either side proving their case for Ukraine. Did Trump handle it in a professional manner, imo, No. Is it an impeachable offense - Not enough information to say one way or another.
IC. Not sure the golf trips are an impeachable offense. Yes, he used his own resort. Would you prefer he use another at a possible greater cost to the public.

II.A. Ukraine aid was released. what was impeachable by the delay?
II B. Govt. has redirected funding throughout history. (example: moving resource funds to fire suppression account because the fire account ran out of money. This does not need Congressional approval. How do I know. Spent 30 years in fire for a federal agency.)

Basically what I see in your list are a bunch of complaints or dislikes regarding Trumps actions. I am not convinced that they are impeachable acts enough to force Trump's removal. imo, the House did a poor job in putting the articles of impeachment together. That is why we say the vote cast down party lines. If there was truly enough evidence my bet that some Republicans would have voted for approval of the articles.

It is my hope Trump will be replaced in the 2020 election with a good candidate. Not all of the Dems running for the Party nomination interests me. There are some that if it was them against Trump, I would be looking at which is the less of two evils.
 
If I was impeaching Trump I'd have to come up with a crime he committed first. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Speaking of no brainers, no crime is needed to impeach.

Bill Clinton testified under oath, shouldn't president trump do the same?
 
From one of your posts.
"I. Bribery
II. Abuse of Office
III. Obstruction of Congress
IV. Obstruction of Justice...

II.A. Ukraine aid was released. what was impeachable by the delay?
II B. Govt. has redirected funding throughout history. (example: moving resource funds to fire suppression account because the fire account ran out of money. This does not need Congressional approval. How do I know. Spent 30 years in fire for a federal agency.)

Basically what I see in your list are a bunch of complaints or dislikes regarding Trumps actions. I am not convinced that they are impeachable acts enough to force Trump's removal. imo, the House did a poor job in putting the articles of impeachment together. That is why we say the vote cast down party lines. If there was truly enough evidence my bet that some Republicans would have voted for approval of the articles.
.LOL - that is a bet I would gladly take!
It is my hope Trump will be replaced in the 2020 election with a good candidate. Not all of the Dems running for the Party nomination interests me. There are some that if it was them against Trump, I would be looking at which is the less of two evils.
I did that as an example of how it is done. I could provide details of necessary...

But, I was more interested in getting people's assessments than the defenses. BTW, I spent 30 years in government service, several actually advising regarding appropriations, so... I can explain about the fire funds if you'd like :)
 
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.LOL - that is a bet I would gladly take! I did that as an example of how it is done. I could provide details of necessary...

But, I was more interested in getting people's assessments than the defenses. BTW, I spent 30 years in government service, several actually advising regarding appropriations, so... I can explain about the fire funds if you'd like :)

Let's see, Clinton faced a Republican controlled House of Representatives. The vote for article of impeachment was 258–176 (31 Democrats joined Republicans) to commence impeachment proceedings against Clinton. The Senate acquitted Clinton. So it is possible if a case is made one may get votes from the opposing Party.

( Oh I know how the fire funds work in the federal government. Spent years at the Regional/State level. Did a short detail in DC during budget development. Don't need a bean counter telling me how it works :lamo) Besides the topic was moving money from one appropriation account like wildlife management and moving some of the dollars to suppression. Not pre suppression, Not fire management but to pay for suppression of wildfires. This has been done in most Federal Agencies for years. Congress eventually increased the money for suppression, thereby restoring the resource fund.

As stated before, imo the case is weak against Trump. Best bet for the Dems is to come up with a candidate that most voters would like to have to replace Trump. If the case was such a slam dunk, some Republicans would have voted for the impeachment.
 
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Let's see, Clinton faced a Republican controlled House of Representatives. The vote for article of impeachment was 258–176 (31 Democrats joined Republicans) to commence impeachment proceedings against Clinton. The Senate acquitted Clinton. So it is possible if a case is made one may get votes from the opposing Party.
There are a number of significant differences between then and now. First, Clinton admitted to, and apologized for, his behavior. Fat chance that happens with Trump. Second, unless one hadn't been paying attention for the last two decades, the makeup of the parties isn't close to comparable. I can, seriously, provide citations, but I think it is pretty well known that the parties are far more partisan now than they have been in our lifelines. Third, there is a significant difference between the behavior of the Republican party then and now. The best evidence for that is merely watching c-span from that era. McConnell, Graham, and others are being as hypocritical as possible regarding "standards" and procedures. It is, frankly, embarrassing. If there were, in fact, any members with principles in the GOP, they would have voted for impeachment. They simply don't exist in that party anymore. THAT is what this moment actually demonstrates.

As stated before, imo the case is weak against Trump. Best bet for the Dems is to come up with a candidate that most voters would like to have to replace Trump. If the case was such a slam dunk, some Republicans would have voted for the impeachment.
I appreciate the civil tone. It is simply impossible for me to believe a thinking person, as you appear to be, could assert that the case is weak. It is hard, frankly, to imagine a more obvious case for abuse of office than this - except, of course, what is in the Mueller report. I appreciate that there are plenty of pundits making up excuses, but their positions don't rely much on the existing facts or the actual law or precedents.

By the way, I do expect a bit more Republican votes in the Senate - but probably only on procedural issues. The number of potential GOP votes for removal is likely under 5. But McConnell is likely to punish any dissent. He's unprincipled that way.
 
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If I were impeaching or convicting Tweety, it would be for extortion, bribery, obstruction of justice, impersonating a foreign agent, and leading a zombie cult without a license. I mean, to begin with.
 
I agree, that is a no-brain response. You should have kept it in the braincase.

Why now are some of the high level players now pointing fingers at the lower level players who were conducting these investigations?

It's a question worth researching.

If Trump is guilty, then fine. Kick his fat ass back to Lago Mar, or what ever that place is called.

But there are legitimate questions that some liberals on here wont at least entertain themselves with.
 
Speaking of no brainers, no crime is needed to impeach.

Bill Clinton testified under oath, shouldn't president trump do the same?

Bill Clinton lied under oath thus his impeachable crime.
 
Why now are some of the high level players now pointing fingers at the lower level players who were conducting these investigations?

It's a question worth researching.

If Trump is guilty, then fine. Kick his fat ass back to Lago Mar, or what ever that place is called.

But there are legitimate questions that some liberals on here wont at least entertain themselves with.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here without some reference point.
 
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