• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Miami Shootout

Jredbaron96 said:
And the cops did to be using civilians as human shields. I realize a lot of Americans will die before they stop licking the boots of law enforcement but to pretend like the cops didn't seriously **** this up and get two people killed is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Never have I said that the tactics used by the police were 100% correct. There will be lessons learned from the review.

What I dislike is posters who come across as all law enforcement are bad. That the suspects did no wrong. That they cannot provide a alternative to how law enforcement should have responded that is reasonable.

Lets say that the LEO's never chased the vehicle and stopped it. Let's say they contacted UPS and got the tracking info as I believe you suggested. Some time later LEO finds the truck with the dead UPS employee. I bet people would be screaming why law enforcement didn't do more sooner. Do you disagree?
 
mike2810 said:
What I dislike is posters who come across as all law enforcement are bad.
Click to expand...

Nobody is saying that.


Some time later LEO finds the truck with the dead UPS employee. I bet people would be screaming why law enforcement didn't do more sooner. Do you disagree?
Click to expand...

And they would have the completely legitimate argument that they didn't want to start a shootout on a CROWDED interstate.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Nobody is saying that.




And they would have the completely legitimate argument that they didn't want to start a shootout on a CROWDED interstate.
Click to expand...

I was looking for a answer from you if you agree people would be complaining the LEO didn't do enough. You definitely are a fence sitter with your answers.

The reverse could be true. LEO's can say they stopped the vehicle and confronted the suspects to reduce and eliminate the risk to the public.
 
mike2810 said:
You definitely are a fence sitter with your answers.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry I cannot be easily classified into being either a bootlicker or a pig hater.

The reverse could be true. LEO's can say they stopped the vehicle and confronted the suspects to reduce and eliminate the risk to the public.
Click to expand...

By engaging in a shootout in a packed freeway.
 
Deleted.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
I'm sorry I cannot be easily classified into being either a bootlicker or a pig hater.



By engaging in a shootout in a packed freeway.
Click to expand...

Yes, the suspects were engaged in shooting on a congested road. Glad you agree.:mrgreen:

We are not going to agree on this. You would prefer the police let the suspects go and only take action in a more secluded area.
 
mike2810 said:
We are not going to agree on this. You would prefer the police let the suspects go and only take action in a more secluded area.
Click to expand...

Yes, I hold the radical position that police officers should not make use of occupied civilian vehicles as cover from gunfire.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Should I break out the crayons to or are you going to be able to follow along?

Well for starters, tale the suspect until his van runs out of gas. Do not commit to an engagement with civilians in the line of fire. Wait until the truck is empty (and it can be tracked because all UPS trucks have trackers on them) of gas and then surround it.
Click to expand...

how are you going to get the perps to agree with your plan?
maybe they will instead decide to drive to the nearest regional hospital and ram the truck into a heavily populated portion of that facility where the cops will be reluctant to fire, now that their would-be targets are dispersed among large numbers of civilians
or maybe they travel to a nearby airport and engage in a similar effort to meld into the well-trafficked location
possibly instead of running out of gas they decide instead to ram the truck into an elementary school and take lots of young hostages
notice, no crayons required on my end. your turn ... and try to use the pointy end while staying within the lines
 
justabubba said:
how are you going to get the perps to agree with your plan?
maybe they will instead decide to drive to the nearest regional hospital and ram the truck into a heavily populated portion of that facility where the cops will be reluctant to fire, now that their would-be targets are dispersed among large numbers of civilians
or maybe they travel to a nearby airport and engage in a similar effort to meld into the well-trafficked location
possibly instead of running out of gas they decide instead to ram the truck into an elementary school and take lots of young hostages
Click to expand...

Yeah, and maybe they would have drove into an airfield, grab a Cessna, strap C4 to it, then fly it into the White House.

You know, while we're just making **** up. Any other ideas? I'm sure we could come up with a Hollywood script eventually.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Yeah, and maybe they would have drove into an airfield, grab a Cessna, strap C4 to it, then fly it into the White House.

You know, while we're just making **** up. Any other ideas? I'm sure we could come up with a Hollywood script eventually.
Click to expand...

that's the point. like you, the police could not predict whether the perps would make the scenario a more difficult one for law enforcement to engage should they have chosen to postpone the actual engagement when the truck was immobile due to congestion

just as in the NFL thread, your comments tend to resemble those of a monday-morning quarterback who pretends he would have known the better outcome - only after he knows the actual outcome
 
justabubba said:
that's the point. like you, the police could not predict whether the perps would make the scenario a more difficult one for law enforcement to engage should they have chosen to postpone the actual engagement when the truck was immobile due to congestion
Click to expand...

The decision to engage in the middle of a crowded freeway while making use of occupied civilian vehicles for cover is hardly defensible under the auspice "Well it could have been worse!". Yes, it could also have been a lot better, like not hiding behind civilians.

just as in the NFL thread, your comments tend to resemble those of a monday-morning quarterback who pretends he would have known the better outcome - only after he knows the actual outcome
Click to expand...

What? I honestly don't know what you're getting at here. Where do I do that in the NFL thread?
 
Jredbaron96 said:
The decision to engage in the middle of a crowded freeway while making use of occupied civilian vehicles for cover is hardly defensible under the auspice "Well it could have been worse!". Yes, it could also have been a lot better, like not hiding behind civilians.
Click to expand...
could have been worse

like the police not seeking the protection of automobiles as shields



What? I honestly don't know what you're getting at here. Where do I do that in the NFL thread?
Click to expand...
monday morning quarterback

now, use those crayons instead of eating them
 
calamity said:
Police tactics questioned after UPS truck police chase ends in deadly shootout

Questioned?




If you watched the video of this, you can only shake your head. The reckless cops literally put the lives of every single person at that traffic stop in jeopardy. Some of these supposed good guys even used the cars with civilians inside of them as human shields. Disgraceful.
Click to expand...

I have to say that there are many areas AI and robotic could help society. Law enforcement would be one of the highest priorities on the list.

As sorry as I am for everyone involved in this situation, I am amazing aware of the risks, dangers and pressure placed on law enforcement each and every day of their lives.

We are the ultimate armchair critics in describing one questionable LE action in a society of 330 million people. We are living in a society where criminal action is much more likely than any other industrialized country. (YEP) our morals as a society are lacking.

Another problem this society has, IN BOTH CONSERVATIVE AND LIBERAL COMMUNITIES is the militarization of the police department. They have been gearing up for over the past 20 years preparing for war.

Since I am not sure of the actions of any and all personnel leading up to this actions, I like the authorities would like to see a full investigation to pass judgement.
 
justabubba said:
could have been worse

like the police not seeking the protection of automobiles as shields
Click to expand...

With people inside them. When the Taliban hide behind civilians we say they're using Human shields. What do you call it when police do it?




monday morning quarterback
Click to expand...

You speak in circles, with a point.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
With people inside them. When the Taliban hide behind civilians we say they're using Human shields. What do you call it when police do it?
Click to expand...
the police hid behind automobiles made of metal
otherwise, they become open, exposed targets ... maybe something a cop hater would prefer





You speak in circles, with a point.
Click to expand...
it appears even crayons would be inadequate to draw you a picture
 
justabubba said:
the police hid behind automobiles made of metal
otherwise, they become open, exposed targets ... maybe something a cop hater would prefer
Click to expand...

IDK how to explain to you that cops should not hide behind civilians, but I guess that's a difficult concept for you to grasp.






it appears even crayons would be inadequate to draw you a picture
Click to expand...

Oof, I made a typo, therefore clearly this argument is over.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
IDK how to explain to you that cops should not hide behind civilians, but I guess that's a difficult concept for you to grasp.








Oof, I made a typo, therefore clearly this argument is over.
Click to expand...

Imagine sitting in traffic when a gunfight breaks out, and then three cops duck behind your car; start shooting at the bad guys from just outside of your passenger seat. WTF?
 
calamity said:
If you watched the video of this, you can only shake your head. The reckless cops literally put the lives of every single person at that traffic stop in jeopardy. Some of these supposed good guys even used the cars with civilians inside of them as human shields. Disgraceful.
Click to expand...

It really makes me wonder if we need to start taking action films a little bit more seriously in terms of the delusions of grandeur they tend to spin up in people's heads. Just too many idiots out there who watch a movie like Die Hard or Lethal Weapon decide they want to be a cop just like Riggs.
 
mike2810 said:
Yes, the suspects were engaged in shooting on a congested road. Glad you agree.:mrgreen:

We are not going to agree on this. You would prefer the police let the suspects go and only take action in a more secluded area.
Click to expand...

Absolutely..

Why not? Why not follow at a discrete distance or use helicopters to follow? OR how about getting ahead if possible the hijackers and divert traffic off the roads so that they can isolate the vehicle and reduce civilian casualties.
 
calamity said:
Imagine sitting in traffic when a gunfight breaks out, and then three cops duck behind your car; start shooting at the bad guys from just outside of your passenger seat. WTF?
Click to expand...

Well.. that I would understand. That makes sense... what is your expectation? The cops should stand where they are and be killed?

The question here is whether they needed to pressure the hijackers to the point where they started firing on the police.
 
jaeger19 said:
Absolutely..

Why not? Why not follow at a discrete distance or use helicopters to follow? OR how about getting ahead if possible the hijackers and divert traffic off the roads so that they can isolate the vehicle and reduce civilian casualties.
Click to expand...

Were you ok with the suspects firing at the police before they were stopped? Was there not a number of civilian cars on the road at the time that the suspects were endangering.

Maybe you can explain why some are putting the blame on the law enforcement officers with not much comment about the actions the suspects were carrying out.
 
mike2810 said:
Were you ok with the suspects firing at the police before they were stopped? t.
Click to expand...

No.. I think that the police should have kept their distance when pressuring the suspects could cause a gun fight in an area that could lead to high civilian casualties.

JUST like I don't want the police to pursue at high speeds through a school zone.. and end up pushing criminals into a high speed chase that could get my sons killed.

Maybe you can explain why some are putting the blame on the law enforcement officers with not much comment about the actions the suspects were carrying out.
Click to expand...
Because as a taxpayer, I can have reasonable expectations that law enforcement will behave in such a way that they do not place the public at greater risk than the risk the criminals represent.
 
calamity said:
Police tactics questioned after UPS truck police chase ends in deadly shootout

Questioned?




If you watched the video of this, you can only shake your head. The reckless cops literally put the lives of every single person at that traffic stop in jeopardy. Some of these supposed good guys even used the cars with civilians inside of them as human shields. Disgraceful.
Click to expand...

Wow, that was crazy. What pissed me off the most about the cops was not the shooting but the hiding behind cars with civilians in them meaning the bad guys would be trying to shoot the cops pretty much hiding behind civilians. Not intended as human shields but that was essentially the outcome.
 
Michael Johnson said:
The hijackers were the most idiotic of this entire incident. They put not only innocent lives in danger, but also the welfare of the LEOs for responding to their ridiculous criminality.

I bet if the hijackers were alive today and they were asked their feelings towards law enforcement they would be similar to the defiant, boundless attitudes of the Lying Libs.

Only criminals have a distaste for the law. Hence why they knowingly choose to break it.

Play stupid games with trigger happy cops, win stupid prizes.

I hope the rest of the cops who didn't engage in such a reckless firefight are safe.
Click to expand...

Where were all of the good normal civilian non-cops with guns to stop this attack?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom