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Ignorance Of The Law

Oozlefinch said:
The same here.

I can only imagine those who think otherwise have never actually gotten a CCW. Because they cover this over and over and over again. And in my opinion, anybody that can not pay attention to such a restriction should probably not even have a CCW.

No more than in Texas I think somebody who carries a CCW into a church, bar, government installation, or Carl's Junior should have that right revoked. Because over and over in that class they pounded us on where you could not carry your weapon. And that included Government facilities, churches, places that served alcohol, or where a sign was posted saying you could not have a gun on the premises.

If you can not follow the rules, you should not have a gun. No more than if you can not follow the rules of the road, you should not have a driver's license.
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See post #75
 
DebateChallenge said:
That depends on where you got the permit and what you had to do to get it. In Nevada for instance to get a carry permit you do have to take a class and they do cover all the different places and ways in which you can carry legally including whether or not you can carry in other states with your Nevada permit, some states have reciprocity with Nevada and some don't and that's covered in the class. In Pennsylvania on the other hand you don't even need to take a class to get a permit. All you have to do to get a CCW in Pennsylvania is have two references, fill out a form, and pay a fee, and you get your permit provided you meet the requirements for getting a permit(you don't have a criminal history, you don't use illegal drugs, etc.) So, when you get a CCW in Pennsylvania you're not going to take a class that will talk about stuff such as reciprocity, or at least its not required.

In West Virginia they've got constitutional carry so you don't even need a permit to carry a concealed handgun in West Virginia. So, a West Virginia driver's license in essence is a carry permit. Obviously its not required in West Virginia to take any class that would cover issues such as reciprocity in other states since you don't even need to take any classes or get any permits, period, to be able to carry there. Somebody from West Virginia is not going to be knowledgeable about reciprocity in other states unless they decide to learn about it and as I pointed out they don't require you to learn about it in order to carry.

So whether or not reciprocity is pounded into your head, it really depends on where you got the permit and what you had to do to get it.
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No . . . . it doesnt unless you are a moron
i was not REQUIRED to know about it im just not a moron and ive known since like middle school different states have different laws
 
AGENT J said:
No . . . . it doesnt unless you are a moron
i was not REQUIRED to know about it im just not a moron and ive known since like middle school different states have different laws
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The point is, maybe where you got a carry permit they had you take a class and it was drilled into your head that your permit was not valid in all states, but not everybody who gets permits has to take such classes. Every state has their own requirements for being able to carry concealed.
 
DebateChallenge said:
The point is, maybe where you got a carry permit they had you take a class and it was drilled into your head that your permit was not valid in all states, but not everybody who gets permits has to take such classes. Every state has their own requirements for being able to carry concealed.
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and the fact is i know BEFORE then because im not a moron :)
also I never took any "classes" nor was it required, your meaningless strawmen fail again
again only a moron wouldnt know any better and the law is the law and stupidity is not an excuse.
 
AGENT J said:
and the fact is i know BEFORE then because im not a moron :)
also I never took any "classes" nor was it required, your meaningless strawmen fail again
again only a moron wouldnt know any better and the law is the law and stupidity is not an excuse.
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You might've not taken any classes but some of the other people on this thread have so its not a strawman with them.

There is a difference between being a criminal and a moron, the difference being a moron doesn't know better. Somebody should not get in trouble for being a moron.
 
DebateChallenge said:
1.) You might've not taken any classes but some of the other people on this thread have so its not a strawman with them.
2.)There is a difference between being a criminal and a moron, the difference being a moron doesn't know better. Somebody should not get in trouble for being a moron.
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1.) its still a strawman because a class isnt required to not be a moron and nobody claimed otherwise . . your claim fails again
2.) hey look another facil strawman . . when did i say somebody should get in trouble for just being a moron? oh thats right i didnt


do you have anything actually on topic and relevant?
 
AGENT J said:
1.) its still a strawman because a class isnt required to not be a moron and nobody claimed otherwise . . your claim fails again
2.) hey look another facil strawman . . when did i say somebody should get in trouble for just being a moron? oh thats right i didnt


do you have anything actually on topic and relevant?
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Your post is offensive.
 
DebateChallenge said:
Your post is offensive.
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so your answer is no, all you have are more failed stramen lol


Well let us know when you have something on topic and relevant, thanks
 
AGENT J said:
so your answer is no, all you have are more failed stramen lol


Well let us know when you have something on topic and relevant, thanks
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If my argument is a straw man argument then let me ask you this, should the fellow in the example I gave have gotten in trouble for carrying a concealed loaded handgun when he didn't know it was illegal to do so in NJ with a NC permit?
 
DebateChallenge said:
1.)If my argument is a straw man argument
2.) then let me ask you this, should the fellow in the example I gave have gotten in trouble for carrying a concealed loaded handgun when he didn't know it was illegal to do so in NJ with a NC permit?
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1.) its not an if, it factually was and that was already proven
2.) already answered directly to you
 
DebateChallenge said:
See post #75
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I will take it a step further.

In Idaho, you do not even need a permit. The laws of that state declare that any resident who is able to carry a firearm can carry it concealed. No permit required.

And in saying that, only a complete moron would think that applied to any state other than Idaho.

Responsible gun owners take the time to find out the law before they get in trouble. Those that do not (or plead ignorance) are either liars, idiots, or both.

And I really have no patience for those that break the law. Especially with firearms.

Of course, I also take the stance that for every right, there is a responsibility. You have the right to "Free Speech". But you also have the responsibility to use it properly. You have the right to own a gun, but you must also do it responsibly. Break that responsibility, then you have lost the free exercise of that right because you have shown you can not handle it.
 
I think it depends on the law and the ignorance. Could someone claim ignorance that murder is illegal? But what about not knowing collecting rain water illegal? Or there are States that violate the Constitution and don’t even let you travel through with a secured and stored firearm.

My larger concern is that in almost every situation the government has determined it has far less obligation to know the law.
 
Oozlefinch said:
I will take it a step further.

In Idaho, you do not even need a permit. The laws of that state declare that any resident who is able to carry a firearm can carry it concealed. No permit required.

And in saying that, only a complete moron would think that applied to any state other than Idaho.

Responsible gun owners take the time to find out the law before they get in trouble. Those that do not (or plead ignorance) are either liars, idiots, or both.

And I really have no patience for those that break the law. Especially with firearms.

Of course, I also take the stance that for every right, there is a responsibility. You have the right to "Free Speech". But you also have the responsibility to use it properly. You have the right to own a gun, but you must also do it responsibly. Break that responsibility, then you have lost the free exercise of that right because you have shown you can not handle it.
Click to expand...

If I am to lose a right for being irresponsible, then the law must define what is responsible/irresponsible.
 
Oozlefinch said:
I will take it a step further.

In Idaho, you do not even need a permit. The laws of that state declare that any resident who is able to carry a firearm can carry it concealed. No permit required.
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Same with West Virginia.

Oozlefinch said:
And in saying that, only a complete moron would think that applied to any state other than Idaho.
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If we ever pass National Reciprocity, and I hope we do, a West Virginia driver's license or for that matter an Idaho driver's license will both serve as carry permits in all 50 states as both states have Constitutional Carry.

As for North Carolina they do not have Constitutional Carry but they do issue carry permits to qualified people. I am not sure what the qualifications for carry permits are in NC and if a class is required where they mention that the permit is only good in NC or other states that have reciprocity.

Oozlefinch said:
Responsible gun owners take the time to find out the law before they get in trouble. Those that do not (or plead ignorance) are either liars, idiots, or both.
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There are over 2000 gun laws on the books, its impossible to know them all.

Oozlefinch said:
And I really have no patience for those that break the law. Especially with firearms.
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It depends on what laws they broke and why they broke them. I certainly have no patience for people who do mass shootings, that is obviously breaking the law with firearms and we all know that, but lets say you get a trigger job done, or you install a foreign made spring in your gun, or you do some other such modification, in some cases that can get you in trouble, as absurd as that is.

Oozlefinch said:
Of course, I also take the stance that for every right, there is a responsibility. You have the right to "Free Speech". But you also have the responsibility to use it properly. You have the right to own a gun, but you must also do it responsibly. Break that responsibility, then you have lost the free exercise of that right because you have shown you can not handle it.
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With rights do come responsibilities but for rights to be taken away, that makes it more into a privilege.
 
Aberration said:
I think it depends on the law and the ignorance. Could someone claim ignorance that murder is illegal?
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Everybody knows that murder is illegal.

Aberration said:
But what about not knowing collecting rain water illegal?
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Good point. Somebody should not get in trouble for collecting rain water when they honestly didn't know it was illegal.

Aberration said:
Or there are States that violate the Constitution and don’t even let you travel through with a secured and stored firearm.
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The SAFE act passed in 1986 allows you to travel through any state with an unloaded and secured firearm, even in a state where it might be illegal, provided you're passing straight through the state without any stops except for gas or other emergencies.

Aberration said:
My larger concern is that in almost every situation the government has determined it has far less obligation to know the law.
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True enough.
 
DebateChallenge said:
That depends on where you got the permit and what you had to do to get it. In Nevada for instance to get a carry permit you do have to take a class and they do cover all the different places and ways in which you can carry legally including whether or not you can carry in other states with your Nevada permit, some states have reciprocity with Nevada and some don't and that's covered in the class. In Pennsylvania on the other hand you don't even need to take a class to get a permit. All you have to do to get a CCW in Pennsylvania is have two references, fill out a form, and pay a fee, and you get your permit provided you meet the requirements for getting a permit(you don't have a criminal history, you don't use illegal drugs, etc.) So, when you get a CCW in Pennsylvania you're not going to take a class that will talk about stuff such as reciprocity, or at least its not required.

In West Virginia they've got constitutional carry so you don't even need a permit to carry a concealed handgun in West Virginia. So, a West Virginia driver's license in essence is a carry permit. Obviously its not required in West Virginia to take any class that would cover issues such as reciprocity in other states since you don't even need to take any classes or get any permits, period, to be able to carry there. Somebody from West Virginia is not going to be knowledgeable about reciprocity in other states unless they decide to learn about it and as I pointed out they don't require you to learn about it in order to carry.

So whether or not reciprocity is pounded into your head, it really depends on where you got the permit and what you had to do to get it.
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In WA St...all you have to do is pass the background check. I got mine in 5 business days.

And guess what? Our state nor the other states with OR without training requirements really dont have any differences in gun crime rates.

Know why? Training has nothing to do with crimes...guns are simple to use, criminals dont need training, they dont care if they miss and hit bystanders, etc.

But that training does help with what's been discussed here...providing knowledge of the laws to *protect* the gun owner. And I think most gun owners get that information/training on their own. I did.

My response here ^^ is not directed at any specific poster.
 
DebateChallenge said:
If my argument is a straw man argument then let me ask you this, should the fellow in the example I gave have gotten in trouble for carrying a concealed loaded handgun when he didn't know it was illegal to do so in NJ with a NC permit?
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yes. It was his responsibility to know.
 
Lursa said:
Know why? Training has nothing to do with crimes...guns are simple to use, criminals dont need training, they dont care if they miss and hit bystanders, etc.

But that training does help with what's been discussed here...providing knowledge of the laws to *protect* the gun owner. And I think most gun owners get that information/training on their own. I did.

My response here ^^ is not directed at any specific poster.
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Most bad guys are lousy shots. Yes, guns are simple to use but using a gun well and effectively is a whole different ballgame and the unfortunate thing is most gun owners don't know that and so they go unprepared and this includes lots of people who carry guns for a living such as police officers, security personnel, and soldiers. As a Distinguished Graduate with the 9mm handgun I know what Im talking about. The tests I had to take involved shooting from concealment under time pressure and getting good hits to both the thoracic cavity and the ocular cavity, how to clear type I, type II, and type III malfunctions, how to do tactical reloads, how to do emergency reloads, tactical movement, and other stuff. Those were the test requirements to be a Distinguished Graduate not to get a carry permit where I got it.
 
Lursa said:
yes. It was his responsibility to know.
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So is it a person's responsibility to know every law? And Im not just talking about gun laws but every law there is, you expect somebody to learn them all? There are thousands if not millions of laws on the books in the USA.
 
DebateChallenge said:
Most bad guys are lousy shots. Yes, guns are simple to use but using a gun well and effectively is a whole different ballgame and the unfortunate thing is most gun owners don't know that and so they go unprepared and this includes lots of people who carry guns for a living such as police officers, security personnel, and soldiers. As a Distinguished Graduate with the 9mm handgun I know what Im talking about. The tests I had to take involved shooting from concealment under time pressure and getting good hits to both the thoracic cavity and the ocular cavity, how to clear type I, type II, and type III malfunctions, how to do tactical reloads, how to do emergency reloads, tactical movement, and other stuff. Those were the test requirements to be a Distinguished Graduate not to get a carry permit where I got it.
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a) Source the bold

b) I compete with my handguns

c) nothing you said connects training with improving or increasing gun crimes. Criminals dont need it to commit crimes...but probably plenty enjoy shooting (training) anyway.
 
DebateChallenge said:
So is it a person's responsibility to know every law? And Im not just talking about gun laws but every law there is, you expect somebody to learn them all? There are thousands if not millions of laws on the books in the USA.
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If you own a vehicle, a bicycle, a boat, a gun, a dog, a cat, property, etc etc etc etc you are responsible for knowing the laws that apply to those things.

If you dont own a dog or boat, do you need to know the laws about dogs or boats? I'd say no.
 
DebateChallenge said:
Should a person get in trouble for breaking the law if they don't know better? Ignorance of the law will not get you off the hook, so we're told, but is that fair? What if a person honestly doesn't know better?
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Comey forgave Hillary for breaking laws he admitted she broke, not because she was ignorant of those laws but, in his opinion, because she meant no harm when she did it. Never mind that Comey had no right to either condemn her or forgive her for anything. What clear evidence of a crooked moron defending a fellow crook.
 
Lursa said:
a) Source the bold

b) I compete with my handguns

c) nothing you said connects training with improving or increasing gun crimes. Criminals dont need it to commit crimes...but probably plenty enjoy shooting (training) anyway.
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a) I've had hundreds of hours of training with firearms. There are exceptions but most criminals are lousy shots as I've been taught in class. That is my source, class. If you want to see the same source as me you can come to my class.

b) Good for you. Of course a tactical gunfight is a whole different ballgame than static target shooting or three gun competition.

c) Criminals are becoming more dangerous, as I said before in this post there are exceptions to criminals being lousy shots, an example would be as Platt and Matix. A trained criminal is more dangerous than an untrained criminal.

Now if more good people could get good training with firearms, that could help cut down on all crimes.
 
Lursa said:
If you own a vehicle, a bicycle, a boat, a gun, a dog, a cat, property, etc etc etc etc you are responsible for knowing the laws that apply to those things.

If you dont own a dog or boat, do you need to know the laws about dogs or boats? I'd say no.
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Alright lets say you had a trigger job done on your gun or you had a foreign spring installed, should you get in trouble for that?
 
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