Are corporate anti-sexual harassment courses too extreme?

lwf said:

Some guys can, but granted there are some who simply can't. I would argue that a friendly slap on the back, telling lewd jokes and locker room talk are unprofessional and don't belong in the workplace. When one transitions into manhood and starts a career, one has to learn to let go of juvenile behavior and conduct themselves in a professional manner. This is all women in the workplace are asking for: Professionalism.

Click to expand...

Yeah.. I work around woman all the time. Honestly when it comes to locker room talk.. sex talk.. and juvenile behavior and conduct.. woman are far and away worse than men.

The idea that women are not as crude, lewd and rude as men..nor willing and able to use power and authority to sexually harass men in the workplace is flat out wrong. And sexist.

jaeger19 said:

Yeah.. I work around woman all the time. Honestly when it comes to locker room talk.. sex talk.. and juvenile behavior and conduct.. woman are far and away worse than men.

The idea that women are not as crude, lewd and rude as men..nor willing and able to use power and authority to sexually harass men in the workplace is flat out wrong. And sexist.

Click to expand...

Disagree. While young women certainly have to learn the lessons of professionalism in the workplace, in American culture girls are thoroughly socially punished for crudeness and lewdness. Men are to a much lesser extent, and often not at all. Women are conditioned by society to be polite and to suppress their sexuality to a degree that men aren't. Think about it: What is "ladylike behavior" to you? Are men held to this same standard? Should men also display ladylike behavior?

Crudeness is tolerated by the women in boys' lives, and is too often celebrated by the men in their lives. It is not tolerated by anyone in girls' lives and they learn that social repercussions will be swift. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, and this disparity is thankfully shrinking with women's liberation, but in general: Men are still socially freer to be crude and sexual than women are outside of the workplace. Because of this, men have a tougher time adapting to professionalism in the workplace than women do when it comes to sexual harassment. This is why many of the males in this thread seem to agree with you that women in general are in some way more capable and more willing to use their power and authority to sexually harass men in the workplace, even when the facts overwhelmingly argue for exactly the opposite. Men are having to check behavior that used to be tolerated outside of the workplace. This can be a difficult transition. The solution lies in holding American boys to a higher standard than we used to and no longer tolerating the 'boys will be boys' excuse.

Pointing out cultural differences in gender expectations is not sexist.

lwf said:

Disagree. While young women certainly have to learn the lessons of professionalism in the workplace, in American culture girls are thoroughly socially punished for crudeness and lewdness. t.

Click to expand...

Bwaahh… that's hilarious. Maybe in the 50's that was the case. but not today. "ladylike behavior"? Crap.. there are music in cultures that downgrade and berate the idea of girls having to be "ladies". Look up "it ain;t my mommas broken heart". as a music. The truth is.. women especially when they are around other women.. are way more lewd.. have sex talk..and juvenile behavior.. then men are. And Aggressive. Its a different type of aggression than men have (physical aggression)… but women are aggressive as well.

YOU are socialized to believe that women are such professional,, nice..ladylike beings... when in reality..they really are no different than men when it comes to their professionalism.

Men are still socially freer to be crude and sexual than women are outside of the workplace.

Click to expand...

No they are not. Women are allowed to be sexual.. in fact MORE sexual outside the workplace etc. and in the workplace. Its just that with men.. that behavior is considered "lewd and crude"...and women its considered acceptable.

Tell me.. If a man is a "hugger".. and goes along hugging women.. is he viewed favorably? Hes a creep and he is likely to get accused of being harassment. What about the woman who does the same behavior.. wearing WAY more revealing clothing than a man? She is just a nice person.

T

he solution lies in holding American boys to a higher standard than we used to and no longer tolerating the 'boys will be boys' excuse.

Click to expand...

Boys are already held to a higher standard than girls are in this regard. And the punishment is severe for us. We are convicted simply through accusation.

"Boys will be boys".. went away in the early 1990's.

Yes.. there are some older men in positions of power that are holdovers from that age. And yep..creeps.

BUT.. a lot of

men have a tougher time adapting to professionalism in the workplace than women do when it comes to sexual harassment.

Click to expand...

Is because the men have a tougher time dealing with the double standard in professionalism in the workplace when it comes to women. Women can be free to be sexual.. to wear revealing clothing.. to touch men, to flirt.. etc.. in the workplace.. and there are no repercussions. For men.. its confusing.. because the rules they have a much different.

Let me illustrate this.. because I got into an argument with my wife. She said "well.. you don't get it because you were never sexually harassed"... well.. I told her "yes I was".. I was a contracting provider into a facility. The regional manager was a woman. A very pretty woman.. and technically my "supervisor" (she controlled the contract.. one word from her and I and my business were OUT)..

She was very friendly..and not knowing anyone in the area.. I went and did things with her. She showed me mountainbiking paths.. we skied together.. rode motorcycles together. I would say we had a friendship in and out of the workplace. Then on a business trip. She made it very clear that she wanted more than friendship. In fact..she ended up removing my clothing while I protested. It completely freaked me out. FIRST.. I was definitely attracted to her... BUT SHE WAS MY SUPERIOR.. she held my contract in her hands and possible career. I mean.. if things ended up going south between us.. it could definitely hurt my business.. and if she got really pissed for some reason... she could claim I HARASSED HER.. and there would be no defense for me. I would immediately be a pariah and my company would become a pariah.

My wife heard this and was thoroughly PISSED!... WHO WAS THIS WOMAN " she said!

I replied "Well it was YOU Honey"!

And it was. I eventually went on to marry her. BUT.. if it had gone south? I could be claiming sexual harassment (or more likely being accused of it). She was technically my superior.. she was the aggressor...

It was interesting because she paused and then said "well... you liked it".

And I said "funny.. that's what some of these men say"...

I have to get a more comfortable couch.

But the point is.. that your supposition on how things are in the workplace.. well they are not based on fact.. they are based on sexism.. that believes that woman are not capable of aggression.. sexual crudeness.. or the willingness to use power in the workplace.

Men who expect it and leave no opportunity for what you describe to happen survive just fine. The first step is to minimize exposure by avoiding projects/tasks that cause you to interact with such women. The next step is to use as few words as possible and do what it takes to get them out of your presence as quickly as possible.

gino said:

Actually, that is the problem. Women tend to do the social/political stuff better than us men. What tends to happen is the women in many workplaces have subtly
taken over the workplace because they are better at political sniping the men that work there. Most women that I respect admit that they would rather work for men,
because women tend to be more back-stabbing and there is more drama in female-led workplaces.

We men tend to be more up-front about workplace political confrontations. You women tend to snipe from afar. And you tend to do it with a smile. If I don't like you, you'll
know it. If a woman doesn't like someone, they tend to attack from behind with a smile. We men don't tend to have the social/political savvy to survive this type of attack.

Click to expand...

Thankfully, a man can deal with this by not trusting these kinds of women and having your guard up every second. Even these women understand always being "official" and always distant and cold. Just keep it in the back of your mind that they are TROUBLE.

jaeger19 said:

Bwaahh… that's hilarious. Maybe in the 50's that was the case. but not today. "ladylike behavior"? Crap.. there are music in cultures that downgrade and berate the idea of girls having to be "ladies". Look up "it ain;t my mommas broken heart". as a music. The truth is.. women especially when they are around other women.. are way more lewd.. have sex talk..and juvenile behavior.. then men are. And Aggressive. Its a different type of aggression than men have (physical aggression)… but women are aggressive as well.

YOU are socialized to believe that women are such professional,, nice..ladylike beings... when in reality..they really are no different than men when it comes to their professionalism.



No they are not. Women are allowed to be sexual.. in fact MORE sexual outside the workplace etc. and in the workplace. Its just that with men.. that behavior is considered "lewd and crude"...and women its considered acceptable.

Tell me.. If a man is a "hugger".. and goes along hugging women.. is he viewed favorably? Hes a creep and he is likely to get accused of being harassment. What about the woman who does the same behavior.. wearing WAY more revealing clothing than a man? She is just a nice person.

T Boys are already held to a higher standard than girls are in this regard. And the punishment is severe for us. We are convicted simply through accusation.

"Boys will be boys".. went away in the early 1990's.

Yes.. there are some older men in positions of power that are holdovers from that age. And yep..creeps.

BUT.. a lot of

Is because the men have a tougher time dealing with the double standard in professionalism in the workplace when it comes to women. Women can be free to be sexual.. to wear revealing clothing.. to touch men, to flirt.. etc.. in the workplace.. and there are no repercussions. For men.. its confusing.. because the rules they have a much different.

Let me illustrate this.. because I got into an argument with my wife. She said "well.. you don't get it because you were never sexually harassed"... well.. I told her "yes I was".. I was a contracting provider into a facility. The regional manager was a woman. A very pretty woman.. and technically my "supervisor" (she controlled the contract.. one word from her and I and my business were OUT)..

She was very friendly..and not knowing anyone in the area.. I went and did things with her. She showed me mountainbiking paths.. we skied together.. rode motorcycles together. I would say we had a friendship in and out of the workplace. Then on a business trip. She made it very clear that she wanted more than friendship. In fact..she ended up removing my clothing while I protested. It completely freaked me out. FIRST.. I was definitely attracted to her... BUT SHE WAS MY SUPERIOR.. she held my contract in her hands and possible career. I mean.. if things ended up going south between us.. it could definitely hurt my business.. and if she got really pissed for some reason... she could claim I HARASSED HER.. and there would be no defense for me. I would immediately be a pariah and my company would become a pariah.

My wife heard this and was thoroughly PISSED!... WHO WAS THIS WOMAN " she said!

I replied "Well it was YOU Honey"!

And it was. I eventually went on to marry her. BUT.. if it had gone south? I could be claiming sexual harassment (or more likely being accused of it). She was technically my superior.. she was the aggressor...

It was interesting because she paused and then said "well... you liked it".

And I said "funny.. that's what some of these men say"...

I have to get a more comfortable couch.

But the point is.. that your supposition on how things are in the workplace.. well they are not based on fact.. they are based on sexism.. that believes that woman are not capable of aggression.. sexual crudeness.. or the willingness to use power in the workplace.

Click to expand...

Kreton said:

That makes no sense. Your proof that all women are out to get you is that a woman correctly predicted your crimes?

Get help for your mommy issues.

Click to expand...

Booom!

You need to focus more. Since when is pointing out data manipulation to a state regulator a crime? I thought you leftists liked whistleblowers. That is unless you think being a statistical staffer and told: "Do an objective analysis that tells the state that we need at least a 39% rate increase". is OK.

beefheart said:

Booom!

Click to expand...

SDET said:

You need to focus more. Since when is pointing out data manipulation to a state regulator a crime? I thought you leftists liked whistleblowers. That is unless you think being a statistical staffer and told: "Do an objective analysis that tells the state that we need at least a 39% rate increase". is OK.

Click to expand...

You are terrified of women that you can't control or keep ignorant.

You are the scary fringe, not the norm, thankfully.

So you would have been more careful to cover for your female manager's fraudulent use of data? I guess I'm just not socially sophisticated enough to do that. You're a better man than I.

beefheart said:

You are terrified of women that you can't control or keep ignorant.

You are the scary fringe, not the norm, thankfully.

Click to expand...

SDET said:

So you would have been more careful to cover for your female manager's fraudulent use of data? I guess I'm just not socially sophisticated enough to do that. You're a better man than I.

Click to expand...

You are so terrified and self loathing...

The word you're looking for is "experienced". People can listen to my information about risks or not. It's no skin off my nose if they get their ass unnecessarily kicked by reality.

beefheart said:

You are so terrified and self loathing...

Click to expand...

lwf said:

Crudeness is tolerated by the women in boys' lives, and is too often celebrated by the men in their lives. It is not tolerated by anyone in girls' lives and they learn that social repercussions will be swift.

Click to expand...

This is one of the most delusional statements I've ever read on this forum.

SDET said:

The word you're looking for is "experienced". People can listen to my information about risks or not. It's no skin off my nose if they get their ass unnecessarily kicked by reality.

Click to expand...

No, the word is terrified.

You are mortified of women, you are terrified that they will realize that you really are nothing.

It eats at you.

beefheart said:

No, the word is terrified.

You are mortified of women, you are terrified that they will realize that you really are nothing.

It eats at you.

Click to expand...

Damn. :rofl

SDET said:

Thankfully, a man can deal with this by not trusting these kinds of women and having your guard up every second. Even these women understand always being "official" and always distant and cold. Just keep it in the back of your mind that they are TROUBLE.

Click to expand...

Yes... that's what you have to do.. but even that doesn't work all the time. I did that contracting with a hospital early in my career. The nurses were often flirting etc with the Dr.s all the time. I had one particular nurse.. 20 something.. that hit on me something fierce. Pulled me into supply closets to supposedly talk about patients and then show me the new tattoo on her tush. etc. I knew to just play it cool because it was known that she had already had 2 affairs with two of the surgeons.

Well.. after basically playing stupid to her advances for about 4 months.. she started telling the nurses I was gay.. or must not have any (blank).. and so on. Publically,, and in groups of nurses in the nursing station where I could hear the giggles. One day.. I walked in on her saying sexual comments about me.. and I spouted off a bit saying.. "you know.. pirates must love you"... Pirates like sunken chests". Well.. the other girls laughed uproariously.

And 30 minutes later I was talking to the CEO, CFO and Head of HR and being accused of sexual harassment etc. Luckily.. I had witnesses that were willing to admit that she was saying things about me.. and had been for months.. IN FRONT OF SUPERVISORS no less. that's she had made bets earlier with the nurses how long before I went out with her.. etc.
AND I was willing to fight and told the hospital that I was going to make a countersuit against the hospital for an unsafe work environment and was going to be the first male to bring a sexual harassment suit against a corporation. And wouldn't that make news.. and that we could air out all the dirty laundry.. like the fact that she had affairs with two of the hospitals surgeons etc. THAT made them pucker up.. because they knew of her behavior.

And so. they promoted her to another area of the hospital system.. and left me alone.

I would just look at a woman like that straight in the eye and say "I live by the idea: Don't **** where you eat. This is always a bad idea." A direct approach like that should work.

jaeger19 said:

Yes... that's what you have to do.. but even that doesn't work all the time. I did that contracting with a hospital early in my career. The nurses were often flirting etc with the Dr.s all the time. I had one particular nurse.. 20 something.. that hit on me something fierce. Pulled me into supply closets to supposedly talk about patients and then show me the new tattoo on her tush. etc. I knew to just play it cool because it was known that she had already had 2 affairs with two of the surgeons.

Well.. after basically playing stupid to her advances for about 4 months.. she started telling the nurses I was gay.. or must not have any (blank).. and so on. Publically,, and in groups of nurses in the nursing station where I could hear the giggles. One day.. I walked in on her saying sexual comments about me.. and I spouted off a bit saying.. "you know.. pirates must love you"... Pirates like sunken chests". Well.. the other girls laughed uproariously.

And 30 minutes later I was talking to the CEO, CFO and Head of HR and being accused of sexual harassment etc. Luckily.. I had witnesses that were willing to admit that she was saying things about me.. and had been for months.. IN FRONT OF SUPERVISORS no less. that's she had made bets earlier with the nurses how long before I went out with her.. etc.
AND I was willing to fight and told the hospital that I was going to make a countersuit against the hospital for an unsafe work environment and was going to be the first male to bring a sexual harassment suit against a corporation. And wouldn't that make news.. and that we could air out all the dirty laundry.. like the fact that she had affairs with two of the hospitals surgeons etc. THAT made them pucker up.. because they knew of her behavior.

And so. they promoted her to another area of the hospital system.. and left me alone.

Click to expand...

It doesn't eat at me any more than driving around on bald tires would. I see a liability risk and I manage that risk. I would only care if the MARKET thought I was nothing, because that means not getting paid. That is easily remedied by watching job listings and watching for missing skills. I'm not mortified by women or else I would be mortified by you.

beefheart said:

No, the word is terrified.

You are mortified of women, you are terrified that they will realize that you really are nothing.

It eats at you.

Click to expand...

SDET said:

I have been through maybe a dozen or so. I think they condition men not to interact with women. Even years ago, way before the formal corporate training, men often said to each other "don't **** where you eat". That means DO NOT fraternize with females at the company in any manner. It's been a given my whole professional life. With DECADES of such indoctrination, how would any man do anything that even comes close to sexual harassment? I don't get it. :shrug: So much as a greeting is a risk. Why chance it?

Click to expand...

Are you honestly arguing that guys never hit on women they work with?

I have never met one foolish enough to do so. I do remember one of my former managers tell me that he divorced his wife be cause she started dating a co-worker. I know about it indirectly, but never witnessed it myself in over thirty years in the corporate environment.

SouthernDemocrat said:

Are you honestly arguing that guys never hit on women they work with?

Click to expand...

SDET said:

I have never met one foolish enough to do so. I do remember one of my former managers tell me that he divorced his wife be cause she started dating a co-worker. I know about it indirectly, but never witnessed it myself in over thirty years in the corporate environment.

Click to expand...

You might not be very perceptive then. I have seen it going on in every company I have worked for since I started working 25 years ago. Hell I bet if you polled married couples, 10 to 20 percent met at work.

I keep my head down and produce well written and well architected code. I tune out and have no interest in the social bullcrap. I'm there to work and only to work. Any kind of conversation annoys me. And the ****ing, annoying chatter generally comes from a loud overbearing female voice. My dislike for chatter must be a bigger benefit than I previously realized.

SouthernDemocrat said:

You might not be very perceptive then. I have seen it going on in every company I have worked for since I started working 25 years ago. Hell I bet if you polled married couples, 10 to 20 percent met at work.

Click to expand...

SDET said:

I keep my head down and produce well written and well architected code. I tune out and have no interest in the social bullcrap. I'm there to work and only to work. Any kind of conversation annoys me. And the ****ing, annoying chatter generally comes from a loud overbearing female voice. My dislike for chatter must be a bigger benefit than I previously realized.

Click to expand...

I am a Senior DevOps Engineer.

SDET said:

I have been through maybe a dozen or so. I think they condition men not to interact with women. Even years ago, way before the formal corporate training, men often said to each other "don't **** where you eat". That means DO NOT fraternize with females at the company in any manner. It's been a given my whole professional life. With DECADES of such indoctrination, how would any man do anything that even comes close to sexual harassment? I don't get it. :shrug: So much as a greeting is a risk. Why chance it?

Click to expand...

While you may not see it and while there are numerous anti sexual harassment/assault classes......it still happens. That’s why the courses keep showing up.

Luckily I’m married and have absolutely no interest in friendships from work. All my friends are outside of my job and I don’t friend coworkers on social media. Essentially my work life is completely separated from my personal life and that has only allowed me to flourish at my job.

Praxas said:

While you may not see it and while there are numerous anti sexual harassment/assault classes......it still happens. That’s why the courses keep showing up.

Luckily I’m married and have absolutely no interest in friendships from work. All my friends are outside of my job and I don’t friend coworkers on social media. Essentially my work life is completely separated from my personal life and that has only allowed me to flourish at my job.

Click to expand...

:applaud:applaud:applaud

Human resources departments are basically an extension of a corporations risk management department today. Long gone is the personnel department which handled your payroll, who to talk to about how to use company provided healthcare, etc.

HR is just about the legal issues today, they generally don't care about harassment, fairness, or anything like that... not in any real sense. It's all about mitigating their risk and nothing else. Last company I worked at would roll out some update to the harassment policy about every 3 months. I swore there were more rules added to it than US Code: Title 18.