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Are corporate anti-sexual harassment courses too extreme?

SDET

SDET

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I have been through maybe a dozen or so. I think they condition men not to interact with women. Even years ago, way before the formal corporate training, men often said to each other "don't **** where you eat". That means DO NOT fraternize with females at the company in any manner. It's been a given my whole professional life. With DECADES of such indoctrination, how would any man do anything that even comes close to sexual harassment? I don't get it. :shrug: So much as a greeting is a risk. Why chance it?
 
SDET said:
I have been through maybe a dozen or so. I think they condition men not to interact with women. Even years ago, way before the formal corporate training, men often said to each other "don't **** where you eat". That means DO NOT fraternize with females at the company in any manner. It's been a given my whole professional life. With DECADES of such indoctrination, how would any man do anything that even comes close to sexual harassment? I don't get it. :shrug: So much as a greeting is a risk. Why chance it?
Click to expand...

Strangely, if you interact with female coworkers the way you might interact with a male client or boss, there is no risk at all.
 
So your solution is to treat female peers as if you're under their authority. Should I pay them protection money as well? Just asking.

lwf said:
Strangely, if you interact with female coworkers the way you might interact with a male client or boss, there is no risk at all.
Click to expand...
 
SDET said:
So your solution is to treat female peers as if you're under their authority. Should I pay them protection money as well? Just asking.
Click to expand...

Do you pay your clients protection money? Are you under your clients' authority?

The point is: Don't treat them differently than your male coworkers.

Unless, of course, you routinely compliment your male coworkers' appearance, smile at them suggestively, make sexually suggestive comments, or awkwardly stand too close to them when talking. If you do any of these things and haven't yet been shoved to the floor, then I suggest stopping and then treating everyone you work with the same.
 
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SDET said:
I have been through maybe a dozen or so. I think they condition men not to interact with women. Even years ago, way before the formal corporate training, men often said to each other "don't **** where you eat". That means DO NOT fraternize with females at the company in any manner. It's been a given my whole professional life. With DECADES of such indoctrination, how would any man do anything that even comes close to sexual harassment? I don't get it. :shrug: So much as a greeting is a risk. Why chance it?
Click to expand...

I agree, as a supervisor if I had a one on one meeting with a female, my office door was open. Any allegation can be made if they didn’t get the raise they were looking for or if I had to let someone go.
 
SDET said:
I have been through maybe a dozen or so. I think they condition men not to interact with women. Even years ago, way before the formal corporate training, men often said to each other "don't **** where you eat". That means DO NOT fraternize with females at the company in any manner. It's been a given my whole professional life. With DECADES of such indoctrination, how would any man do anything that even comes close to sexual harassment? I don't get it. :shrug: So much as a greeting is a risk. Why chance it?
Click to expand...

Do you have like a rubber stamp? Because all your posts are the exact same thing. Blah blah evil women blah blah.
 
Outlook said:
I agree, as a supervisor if I had a one on one meeting with a female, my office door was open. Any allegation can be made if they didn’t get the raise they were looking for or if I had to let someone go.
Click to expand...

Do you do the same when you meet with your male employees?
 
Dunno. I’ve been in the corporate world for 35 years. Have worked with woman, for women and had women reporting to me (even now half my staff is women one of whom has worked for me - willingly - for 21 years) and haven’t had any problems.

Granted that’s all been in either computer companies or the software engineering organization of financial services firms so that may have something to do with it.

Or maybe it’s just cause I try not to be an asshole, treat all the people I deal with as humans and try to make work as enjoyable as possible. Or maybe not.

I just took our annual corporate anti-harassment training earlier this week. It’s largely bull**** to be honest. And the little that isn’t bull**** is really common sense.
 
When I was told that it did not matter how I intended the statement, but how it was perceived, I realized that it had gone too far. So one guy can say something and another guy can say the same thing, but get in trouble for it? That just isn't right.

Most guys I know say they would rather NOT work with women because of the liability we open ourselves up to.
 
gino said:
When I was told that it did not matter how I intended the statement, but how it was perceived, I realized that it had gone too far. So one guy can say something and another guy can say the same thing, but get in trouble for it? That just isn't right.

Most guys I know say they would rather NOT work with women because of the liability we open ourselves up to.
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"It doesn't matter how you intended the statement, but how it was perceived," is a nice way of saying you are socially inept and need to learn how to conduct yourself as a professional.

Consider:
To a female coworker: "That blouse makes your boobs look extra big today."
To human resources: "But I didn't mean to offend her! I meant it as a compliment!"
 
Given that a Subject Matter Expert often gets paid about 75% of what a manager earns without all the expectation for ongoing meetings, unpaid overtime, pressure, being responsible for other people work, I just don't see the upside of being in management. As an outside contractor/consultant, your pay rate can be more than what a manager get. Management? No thank you!

Gaius46 said:
Dunno. I’ve been in the corporate world for 35 years. Have worked with woman, for women and had women reporting to me (even now half my staff is women one of whom has worked for me - willingly - for 21 years) and haven’t had any problems.

Granted that’s all been in either computer companies or the software engineering organization of financial services firms so that may have something to do with it.

Or maybe it’s just cause I try not to be an asshole, treat all the people I deal with as humans and try to make work as enjoyable as possible. Or maybe not.

I just took our annual corporate anti-harassment training earlier this week. It’s largely bull**** to be honest. And the little that isn’t bull**** is really common sense.
Click to expand...
 
lwf said:
Strangely, if you interact with female coworkers the way you might interact with a male client or boss, there is no risk at all.
Click to expand...

That is total bullsh!t.

I was subjected at one workplace to so much dirty humor and foul language it was unbelievable. One of the co-workers for example teased me because I gave a young woman a beater car I had and he said I should’ve demanded sexual favors for it, that was actually the basis of a lot of harassment I got.
 
SDET said:
I have been through maybe a dozen or so. I think they condition men not to interact with women. Even years ago, way before the formal corporate training, men often said to each other "don't **** where you eat". That means DO NOT fraternize with females at the company in any manner. It's been a given my whole professional life. With DECADES of such indoctrination, how would any man do anything that even comes close to sexual harassment? I don't get it. :shrug: So much as a greeting is a risk. Why chance it?
Click to expand...

Your attitude is the express reason the rest of us are stuck with these courses, that most of us did not need in the first place as we already recognized that if you interact with everyone in a reasonable, respectful, and professional manner there is very little risk and even less chance of a problem ever happening.

But hell no, you continue to go down this road (which matches the majority of the threads you start.)
 
A more realistic example:

Female co-worker: I just can't stand my husband and can't hold it in any longer. I need to vent.
Mr Beta Simp: I would sure treat you so much better.
To human resources: "But I didn't mean to offend her! I meant it to be supportive!"

A real life example the I remember my team lead at the time doing:
A female co-worker called him to pick her up one evening because she was too drunk to drive. He told a friend and the rumor spread all over the office. It became an HR issue.



lwf said:
"It doesn't matter how you intended the statement, but how it was perceived," is a nice way of saying you are socially inept and need to learn how to conduct yourself as a professional.

Consider:
To a female coworker: "That blouse makes your boobs look extra big today."
To human resources: "But I didn't mean to offend her! I meant it as a compliment!"
Click to expand...
 
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One can't get more professional than interacting as little as practicable. I observe this **** from a distance and never cease to be dumbfounded.

OrphanSlug said:
Your attitude is the express reason the rest of us are stuck with these courses, that most of us did not need in the first place as we already recognized that if you interact with everyone in a reasonable, respectful, and professional manner there is very little risk and even less chance of a problem ever happening.

But hell no, you continue to go down this road (which matches the majority of the threads you start.)
Click to expand...
 
More issues with women, color me surprised.

Yes everyone needs sexual harassment training - women inclued.
Yes its culture shock if you've never had it and are young and hot blooded. It does take some getting use to.
Yes it quickly becomes habit, and is the better way to behave in the workplace generally speaking.
No it does not condition you to avoid women (or the sexes you're interested in if we're not talking about you personally....)
 
EMNofSeattle said:
That is total bullsh!t.
I was subjected at one workplace to so much dirty humor and foul language it was unbelievable. One of the co-workers for example teased me because I gave a young woman a beater car I had and he said I should’ve demanded sexual favors for it, that was actually the basis of a lot of harassment I got.
Click to expand...
Sorry you had such a terrible experience.

As he said, no risk of sexual harassment.
You worked for a **** boss, that hired **** employees. That cannot be remedied by sexual harassment training, unfortunately.

Hopefully you found a place more worthy of your priceless life energy.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
That is total bullsh!t.

I was subjected at one workplace to so much dirty humor and foul language it was unbelievable. One of the co-workers for example teased me because I gave a young woman a beater car I had and he said I should’ve demanded sexual favors for it, that was actually the basis of a lot of harassment I got.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. That's why I was hesitant to say "treat your female coworkers like you treat your male coworkers." This works for me, but in too many workplaces men treat each other unprofessionally. For what it's worth, you were treated unprofessionally and deserve the same recourse that a woman would have were she in that situation.
 
Women especially need it because it gives them ideas for leverage if they see a negative performance review coming or there's a wanted promotion coming down the pike.

Mach said:
More issues with women, color me surprised.

Yes everyone needs sexual harassment training - women inclued.
Yes its culture shock if you've never had it and are young and hot blooded. It does take some getting use to.
Yes it quickly becomes habit, and is the better way to behave in the workplace generally speaking.
No it does not condition you to avoid women (or the sexes you're interested in if we're not talking about you personally....)
Click to expand...
 
lwf said:
Strangely, if you interact with female coworkers the way you might interact with a male client or boss, there is no risk at all.
Click to expand...

That's not true at all, lol.
 
The off-color remark from your co-worker accurately expresses how what you did was a risky move. Risk management, my boy, risk management!

EMNofSeattle said:
That is total bullsh!t.

I was subjected at one workplace to so much dirty humor and foul language it was unbelievable. One of the co-workers for example teased me because I gave a young woman a beater car I had and he said I should’ve demanded sexual favors for it, that was actually the basis of a lot of harassment I got.
Click to expand...
 
lwf said:
Do you pay your clients protection money? Are you under your clients' authority?

The point is: Don't treat them differently than your male coworkers.

Unless, of course, you routinely compliment your male coworkers' appearance, smile at them suggestively, make sexually suggestive comments, or awkwardly stand too close to them when talking. If you do any of these things and haven't yet been shoved to the floor, then I suggest stopping and then treating everyone you work with the same.
Click to expand...

What about a friendly slap on the back, a lewd joke, or any other "locker room talk", etc?


Guys can't treat girls the way they treat fellow guys, period.
 
lwf said:
Do you do the same when you meet with your male employees?
Click to expand...

Nope.


But its REQUIRED that I have a female member of management with me to meet with a female TM.
 
SDET said:
Given that a Subject Matter Expert often gets paid about 75% of what a manager earns without all the expectation for ongoing meetings, unpaid overtime, pressure, being responsible for other people work, I just don't see the upside of being in management. As an outside contractor/consultant, your pay rate can be more than what a manager get. Management? No thank you!
Click to expand...

Funny thing is when I was first promoted into management I had had to take a management training class and the first thing we were asked is “why do you want to go into management.”

Money wasn’t the top reason. Top reason was to have more control over our own destiny. To have a bigger say in how things get done. Money wasn’t even in the top three. Was maybe 4 or 5 - it was a long time ago.

I certainly didn’t go into it for the money. As a manager I make more than my guys most of the time - there’ve been a couple of times when I’ve had superstars who worked for me who made more than I did. Doesn’t bother me. I’m paid very well and have a comfortable life.

I enjoy the people part of managing. Have managed groups as large as 50 people where I’ve had 5-6 managers report to me. Didn’t like it that much. Right now I have a small engineering team - 6 people. It’s a much more tactical job and allows me to be much closer to my guys. It’s what I prefer and honestly what I’m good at. And thankfully my wife understands that and doesn’t push me at all to get promoted any higher.

And now that I’m relatively late in my career and have some children (ie recent college grads) working for me I get to play mentor and watch them grow into the competent working adults and help them move l their careers forward which is extremely gratifying.

You need to provide for your family but it ain’t all about the money.
 
SDET said:
A more realistic example:

Female co-worker: I just can't stand my husband and can't hold it in any longer. I need to vent.
Mr Beta Simp: I would sure treat you so much better.
To human resources: "But I didn't mean to offend her! I meant it to be supportive!"
Click to expand...

That is a more realistic example, but the same logic applies. "I would treat you better" is an awkward and presumptuous thing to say to a coworker, and likely would make someone hearing that feel like she was only valued by the people who say that sort of thing as a potential sexual partner. Would you say that to a male coworker?

SDET said:
A real life example the I remember my team lead at the time doing:
A female co-worker called him to pick her up one evening because she was too drunk to drive. He told a friend and the rumor spread all over the office. It became an HR issue.
Click to expand...

In this case, I hope your team lead was cleared of any wrongdoing. Though I understand the woman's distress at having rumors spread around the office making her look like a drunk, it wasn't his fault.
 
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