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Are corporate anti-sexual harassment courses too extreme?

SDET said:
You know, the Western women on this message board are the only ones I interact with. Y'all help fan the flames, just sayin'. The last Western woman I had any contact with was this on my last gig where this stupid harpy from the other side of the floor complained about our team working with the lights off. It became a big battle with about 18 male programmers ready to leave the company en masse. She pushed that it was a "safety issue". We pushed back that the fluorescent lights hurt our eyes. We came to a deal where about 10% of the lights were turned on. It's been about a year since I have had to be in ongoing contact with a Western woman. It has been a good year. Working with Indians has its irritations, but they pale in comparison to having a Western woman around.
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Hogwash. You get your clock cleaned on here by "Western women" because of the attitude you have towards them.

My animosity towards you didn't start when you signed on. It started when you whined about how evil white American women are the bane of your existence - in almost every single thread you participate in.

"Sky is cloudy today."
"It's evil American women."

"My motor blew up because I didn't change my oil."
"It's evil American women."

"I haven't had sex in 8 months."
"It's evil American women. They hate me. I don't know why."

Change your tune, and maybe the evil women on this board will not rag on you every time you show up.

Or don't, and blame the decline and fall of western civilization on us.

Either way, I don't care.
 
OrphanSlug said:
if you interact with everyone in a reasonable, respectful, and professional manner there is very little risk and even less chance of a problem ever happening.
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Unfortunately, this is a very naïve and unrealistic way to look at it. When you give someone a stick to beat you with, that stick tends to be used. There are just enough cruel/psycho/mean-spirited people in the workforce that will use ANY MEANS NECESSARY to get ahead. Just because most women wouldn't unfairly use this as a weapon, doesn't mean there aren't *enough* women out there who would.
 
gino said:
Unfortunately, this is a very naïve and unrealistic way to look at it. When you give someone a stick to beat you with, that stick tends to be used. There are just enough cruel/psycho/mean-spirited people in the workforce that will use ANY MEANS NECESSARY to get ahead. Just because most women wouldn't unfairly use this as a weapon, doesn't mean there aren't *enough* women out there who would.
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There are at least as many men who would as well. Fortunately, men who treat every other woman they work with with respect have nothing to fear from those extremely rare evil-genius women who are capable of fabricating a believable narrative of sexual harassment that will fool the HR department. Such a man will have an army of women allies who come to his defense.
 
lwf said:
nothing to fear from those extremely rare evil-genius women who are capable of fabricating a believable narrative of sexual harassment that will fool the HR department.
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You and I must not be living in the same reality. I've seen women use baseless claims to further themselves many times. Be it in court or in corporate life, if you leave a weapon around, it will be used.
 
gino said:
You and I must not be living in the same reality. I've seen women use baseless claims to further themselves many times. Be it in court or in corporate life, if you leave a weapon around, it will be used.
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We see it happen because it is news when it happens. I've seen stories of people going postal and shooting their coworkers and then themselves many times as well. Even so, patting down your employees before they enter the building is unnecessary. Having a policy of no firearms is enough, even if every once in a while we hear about someone who violates this policy and does damage, just as having a policy of no false accusations is enough even if once in a while we hear about a false accusation.
 
lwf said:
We see it happen because it is news when it happens. I've seen stories of people going postal and shooting their coworkers and then themselves many times as well. Even so, patting down your employees before they enter the building is unnecessary. Having a policy of no firearms is enough, even if every once in a while we hear about someone who violates this policy and does damage, just as having a policy of no false accusations is enough even if once in a while we hear about a false accusation.
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Seems some people live Game of Thrones.
 
SDET said:
I have been through maybe a dozen or so. I think they condition men not to interact with women. Even years ago, way before the formal corporate training, men often said to each other "don't **** where you eat". That means DO NOT fraternize with females at the company in any manner. It's been a given my whole professional life. With DECADES of such indoctrination, how would any man do anything that even comes close to sexual harassment? I don't get it. :shrug: So much as a greeting is a risk. Why chance it?
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"When it’s raining thread craps, you know you have struck a nerve!"
 
SDET said:
So much as a greeting is a risk. Why chance it?
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1. Men cannot please some feminists.

2. Some men executives, for example, decline to be alone with a female colleague under any circumstances (on a business trip, in a car, in a room, etc.).


3. This feminist did not understand that those men executives do not want to be falsely accused later of improper conduct.


4. This feminist charged that those men executives' actions were intended to show contempt for the #MeToo movement.

It seems that no matter what men do, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
 
KevinKohler said:
Nope.


But its REQUIRED that I have a female member of management with me to meet with a female TM.
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It would be a good idea even with men.

My buddy had a meeting with a male employee and was accused of inappropriate touching.

That was the last time he met with anybody alone.
 
Gaius46 said:
Dunno. I’ve been in the corporate world for 35 years. Have worked with woman, for women and had women reporting to me (even now half my staff is women one of whom has worked for me - willingly - for 21 years) and haven’t had any problems.

Granted that’s all been in either computer companies or the software engineering organization of financial services firms so that may have something to do with it.

Or maybe it’s just cause I try not to be an asshole, treat all the people I deal with as humans and try to make work as enjoyable as possible. Or maybe not.

I just took our annual corporate anti-harassment training earlier this week. It’s largely bull**** to be honest. And the little that isn’t bull**** is really common sense.
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You have to realize, the anti-harassment training isn't targeted at you. It's targeted at the predatory sociopaths trying to trample their way up the ladder, who are usually the source of these sexual harassment lawsuits. There's not a ton of them, but it only takes one to take a fat stinking legal **** on the office carpet.
 
SDET said:
I have been through maybe a dozen or so. I think they condition men not to interact with women. Even years ago, way before the formal corporate training, men often said to each other "don't **** where you eat". That means DO NOT fraternize with females at the company in any manner. It's been a given my whole professional life. With DECADES of such indoctrination, how would any man do anything that even comes close to sexual harassment? I don't get it. :shrug: So much as a greeting is a risk. Why chance it?
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SDET:

You've been through a dozen such programmes? Maybe the women and the indoctrinating overlords/ladies are not the problem? May I suggest you toy with the notion of becoming a eunuch, thus saving all parties stress and discomfort.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
It's doable, the key is to NEVER be social and ALWAYS be task-focused. That also means to be mindful of taking unneeded risks.

TheParser said:
1. Men cannot please some feminists.

2. Some men executives, for example, decline to be alone with a female colleague under any circumstances (on a business trip, in a car, in a room, etc.).


3. This feminist did not understand that those men executives do not want to be falsely accused later of improper conduct.


4. This feminist charged that those men executives' actions were intended to show contempt for the #MeToo movement.

It seems that no matter what men do, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
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Do you know of anyone who hasn't been through at least a dozen of them after three decades in the corporate environment? It's an "all hands on deck" kind of thing and it's generally one way communication.

Evilroddy said:
SDET:

You've been through a dozen such programmes? Maybe the women and the indoctrinating overlords/ladies are not the problem? May I suggest you toy with the notion of becoming a eunuch, thus saving all parties stress and discomfort.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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What is overlooked is that the way these are presented become a drag on morale. If you take this training seriously, it leads one to ask about the risk level of interacting with women at all. It creates a walking-on-eggshells culture where every bit of non-task communication is a big risk.

Jesse Booth said:
You have to realize, the anti-harassment training isn't targeted at you. It's targeted at the predatory sociopaths trying to trample their way up the ladder, who are usually the source of these sexual harassment lawsuits. There's not a ton of them, but it only takes one to take a fat stinking legal **** on the office carpet.
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SDET said:
Do you know of anyone who hasn't been through at least a dozen of them after three decades in the corporate environment? It's an "all hands on deck" kind of thing and it's generally one way communication.
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SDET:

Yes, I know many people who are employed in corporate jobs and have never had to attend such courses. They include folks in the paint business, electronics, the Canadian petroleum business, commercial real estate management, health management services, biotechnology, pharmaceuticals, commercial law firms and the aviation industry. I am a teacher and have never had to attend such courses even once in my life (to date). In fact the only friend I have who had to attend such a thing without cause was a buddy of mine who is a policeman. Another buddy also had to attend such courses but that was with cause as he was "a player" who got caught in an harassment dispute in the retail store business. I also have a cousin in America who worked law enforcement who got involved with a witness in a case he was working and who lost his job accordingly but it's a touchy (excuse the unintentional pun) subject so it is not discussed so I have no idea if he was forced to take any such courses in the wake of his dismissal.

So, yes, a dozen kicks at the can does seem excessive to me. But I'm not working in an overly litigious corporate environment and maybe my friends haven't fully disclosed their experiences.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
SDET said:
It's doable, the key is to NEVER be social and ALWAYS be task-focused. That also means to be mindful of taking unneeded risks.
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I think a better solution is to pay attention during sexual harassment training seminars and try to put yourself into the shoes of the kinds of people who are offended by words or actions that you find yourself using on a regular basis.

When one learns how to be professional, one can then learn how to be social at work. Then, instead of offending your female coworkers, you may have the opportunity to befriend them.
 
Evilroddy said:
SDET:

Yes, I know many people who are employed in corporate jobs and have never had to attend such courses. They include folks in the paint business, electronics, the Canadian petroleum business, commercial real estate management, health management services, biotechnology, pharmaceuticals, commercial law firms and the aviation industry. I am a teacher and have never had to attend such courses even once in my life (to date). In fact the only friend I have who had to attend such a thing without cause was a buddy of mine who is a policeman. Another buddy also had to attend such courses but that was with cause as he was "a player" who got caught in an harassment dispute in the retail store business. I also have a cousin in America who worked law enforcement who got involved with a witness in a case he was working and who lost his job accordingly but it's a touchy (excuse the unintentional pun) subject so it is not discussed so I have no idea if he was forced to take any such courses in the wake of his dismissal.

So, yes, a dozen kicks at the can does seem excessive to me. But I'm not working in an overly litigious corporate environment and maybe my friends haven't fully disclosed their experiences.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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It might be an American thing. I've sat through a whole bunch as well. They tend to be part of the corporate environment here. Canadians have a reputation for being overly polite here in America, though. Maybe that says something about American professionalism in the workplace. I grew up in the Midwest in an area where men never smile for photos and think going to the doctor is a sign of weakness, and even I am often shocked at the level of machismo you sometimes see when there are too many men working together. Sadly, Americans seem to need all those sexual harassment seminars.
 
lwf said:
Do you do the same when you meet with your male employees?
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I wouldn't worry either way with a male employee... with a female employee or student I would not only have the door open, but I might let another co-worker know that we are meeting or even have one sit in the room. It is not just that she might make an allegation, which happens, it might be as simple as another person starting a rumor or even making the situation uncomfortable by saying, "what are you doing in a room alone with ____"?
 
Me and lots of men absolutely pay attention. Like with any other training, the question arises "how can we take this to the next level". Think of the guy that starts asking for protection against "shoulder surfing" and researches the exact model and fit monitor filter after the data security training. Of course, one can add purpose to one's after lunch stroll by keeping an eye out for OSHA violations. Remember, every word out of one's mouth and every glance is a potential sexual harassment charge!

As an added bonus, if your current work culture isn't healthy, one can report those OSHA violations to, well OSHA, instead of the physical safety department then you get whistleblower status as an added layer of job protection.

lwf said:
I think a better solution is to pay attention during sexual harassment training seminars and try to put yourself into the shoes of the kinds of people who are offended by words or actions that you find yourself using on a regular basis.

When one learns how to be professional, one can then learn how to be social at work. Then, instead of offending your female coworkers, you may have the opportunity to befriend them.
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Bodhisattva said:
I wouldn't worry either way with a male employee... with a female employee or student I would not only have the door open, but I might let another co-worker know that we are meeting or even have one sit in the room. It is not just that she might make an allegation, which happens, it might be as simple as another person starting a rumor or even making the situation uncomfortable by saying, "what are you doing in a room alone with ____"?
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Same can happen with a male employee or student. If you don't trust yourself to be able to remain professional in a room with a woman, then I 100% support you leaving the door open. However, living in fear that some batsh*t crazy woman is going to make a false sexual harassment allegation against you is like living in fear that some batsh*t crazy republican is going to murder you with his AR-15. Does it happen? Yes, technically it does happen. Is it something that will probably happen to you or anyone you know? Of course not, and for exactly the same reason that you are unlikely to be murdered by a republican with an assault rifle. (Hint: if you believe this has happened to you or someone you know, chances are extremely high that the allegation was not a false one.)
 
It's not a matter of trusting oneself. It's a matter of mitigating risk. Being alone with a female co-worker makes about as much sense a speeding in the rain with bald tires.

Your firearm example is already being mitigated. All entrances have metal detectors.

lwf said:
Same can happen with a male employee or student. If you don't trust yourself to be able to remain professional in a room with a woman, then I 100% support you leaving the door open. However, living in fear that some batsh*t crazy woman is going to make a false sexual harassment allegation against you is like living in fear that some batsh*t crazy republican is going to murder you with his AR-15. Does it happen? Yes, technically it does happen. Is it something that will probably happen to you or anyone you know? Of course not, and for exactly the same reason that you are unlikely to be murdered by a republican with an assault rifle. (Hint: if you believe this has happened to you or someone you know, chances are extremely high that the allegation was not a false one.)
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SDET said:
I have been through maybe a dozen or so. I think they condition men not to interact with women. Even years ago, way before the formal corporate training, men often said to each other "don't **** where you eat". That means DO NOT fraternize with females at the company in any manner. It's been a given my whole professional life. With DECADES of such indoctrination, how would any man do anything that even comes close to sexual harassment? I don't get it. :shrug: So much as a greeting is a risk. Why chance it?
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according to the latest information 60% of men refuse to mentor women underlings.
they refuse to be alone in the same room or go to dinner or ask them to business dinners.

60% of male managers uncomfortable with work activities involving women

but a new survey finds that 60% of male managers say they’re uncomfortable participating in regular work activities with women, including mentoring, working one-on-one or socializing.

Senior-level men also say they are 12 times more likely to be hesitant about one-on-one meetings with a junior woman than they are a junior man, nine times more likely to be hesitant to travel with a junior woman for work than a junior man, and six times more likely to be hesitant to have a work dinner with a junior woman than a junior man.

and guess what they have no one to blame but the feminist movement.
 
SDET said:
It's not a matter of trusting oneself. It's a matter of mitigating risk. Being alone with a female co-worker makes about as much sense a speeding in the rain with bald tires.

Your firearm example is already being mitigated. All entrances have metal detectors.
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One could also mitigate the risk by banning all AR-15's. And some statistically challenged people are trying to do just that. Don't be like them. Being alone with a woman in the workplace is not risky as long as you can be professional. And being professional is easy. Just treat them with respect, keep the conversation G-rated, and don't try to flirt.
 
If a heated disagreement comes down the pike, the approach you suggest goes right out the window.

lwf said:
One could also mitigate the risk by banning all AR-15's. And some statistically challenged people are trying to do just that. Don't be like them. Being alone with a woman in the workplace is not risky as long as you can be professional. And being professional is easy. Just treat them with respect, keep the conversation G-rated, and don't try to flirt.
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lwf said:
Same can happen with a male employee or student. If you don't trust yourself to be able to remain professional in a room with a woman, then I 100% support you leaving the door open. However, living in fear that some batsh*t crazy woman is going to make a false sexual harassment allegation against you is like living in fear that some batsh*t crazy republican is going to murder you with his AR-15. Does it happen? Yes, technically it does happen. Is it something that will probably happen to you or anyone you know? Of course not, and for exactly the same reason that you are unlikely to be murdered by a republican with an assault rifle.
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(Hint: if you believe this has happened to you or someone you know, chances are extremely high that the allegation was not a false one.)
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I had a response but then realized that your post is stupid on a few levels so I shouldn't bother trying to reason with you...
 
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