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Are corporate anti-sexual harassment courses too extreme?

SDET said:
I have been through maybe a dozen or so. I think they condition men not to interact with women. Even years ago, way before the formal corporate training, men often said to each other "don't **** where you eat". That means DO NOT fraternize with females at the company in any manner. It's been a given my whole professional life. With DECADES of such indoctrination, how would any man do anything that even comes close to sexual harassment? I don't get it. :shrug: So much as a greeting is a risk. Why chance it?
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Do you have a problem with acting decently in an office place and not harassing the opposite sex?

Once again, your fear and hatred of women, specifically the ones you can't control, comes out.
 
Gaius46 said:
Funny thing is when I was first promoted into management I had had to take a management training class and the first thing we were asked is “why do you want to go into management.”

Money wasn’t the top reason. Top reason was to have more control over our own destiny. To have a bigger say in how things get done. Money wasn’t even in the top three. Was maybe 4 or 5 - it was a long time ago.

I certainly didn’t go into it for the money. As a manager I make more than my guys most of the time - there’ve been a couple of times when I’ve had superstars who worked for me who made more than I did. Doesn’t bother me. I’m paid very well and have a comfortable life.

I enjoy the people part of managing. Have managed groups as large as 50 people where I’ve had 5-6 managers report to me. Didn’t like it that much. Right now I have a small engineering team - 6 people. It’s a much more tactical job and allows me to be much closer to my guys. It’s what I prefer and honestly what I’m good at. And thankfully my wife understands that and doesn’t push me at all to get promoted any higher.

And now that I’m relatively late in my career and have some children (ie recent college grads) working for me I get to play mentor and watch them grow into the competent working adults and help them move l their careers forward which is extremely gratifying.

You need to provide for your family but it ain’t all about the money.
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There is no feeling like recruiting some young gun, developing them, and watching their career blossom.
 
For me the most frustrating thing is that they have this stupid need to "vent". If someone comes to me with a problem, I like to efficiently come up with a solution. If you had a rude waiter/waitress then tell management and leave a negative review. If your neighbor won't pay for their half of the HOA-mandated fence repair, sue 'em. If you have a noisy neighbor, call the cops. Some people really like my outcome-based approach to life. If you have a nagging spouse, live in a place where you can have a den with a locking door.

KevinKohler said:
What about a friendly slap on the back, a lewd joke, or any other "locker room talk", etc?


Guys can't treat girls the way they treat fellow guys, period.
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KevinKohler said:
What about a friendly slap on the back, a lewd joke, or any other "locker room talk", etc?

Guys can't treat girls the way they treat fellow guys, period.
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Some guys can, but granted there are some who simply can't. I would argue that a friendly slap on the back, telling lewd jokes and locker room talk are unprofessional and don't belong in the workplace. When one transitions into manhood and starts a career, one has to learn to let go of juvenile behavior and conduct themselves in a professional manner. This is all women in the workplace are asking for: Professionalism.
 
SDET said:
For me the most frustrating thing is that they have this stupid need to "vent". If someone comes to me with a problem, I like to efficiently come up with a solution. If you had a rude waiter/waitress then tell management and leave a negative review. If your neighbor won't pay for their half of the HOA-mandated fence repair, sue 'em. If you have a noisy neighbor, call the cops. Some people really like my outcome-based approach to life. If you have a nagging spouse, live in a place where you can have a den with a locking door.
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As a leader within a team, therapist is one of the hats you wear.


My advice? Don't be a manager.
 
KevinKohler said:
Nope.

But its REQUIRED that I have a female member of management with me to meet with a female TM.
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If you leave the door open when you meet one on one with female employees but not male employees, how do you prevent female employees from feeling like they are being publicly humiliated just because they are female? Treat your workers equally. If your boss requires you to have a female member of management present when you speak to female employees, I suggest that says more about your own past behavior than it does about the danger of having women in the workplace.
 
SDET said:
Women especially need it because it gives them ideas for leverage if they see a negative performance review coming or there's a wanted promotion coming down the pike.
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Twelve training course and you're still not getting it.
 
lwf said:
Some guys can, but granted there are some who simply can't. I would argue that a friendly slap on the back, telling lewd jokes and locker room talk are unprofessional and don't belong in the workplace. When one transitions into manhood and starts a career, one has to learn to let go of juvenile behavior and conduct themselves in a professional manner. This is all women in the workplace are asking for: Professionalism.
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Uh huh.

Here's the problem...both sexes have their quirks. Things that don't belong at work. But currently, only mens quirks are being aggressively target, because women are claiming victimhood. Meanwhile, the ones who treat women the absolute WORST at work? Other women.
 
Men generally don't vent like that. By the time they talk about things like that it means helping them fill out divorce paperwork, researching a good lawyer and helping research financial and custody strategies. I suspect it would even be more awkward if a man sprung into action and actively facilitated a woman divorce her husband.

lwf said:
That is a more realistic example, but the same logic applies. "I would treat you better" is an awkward and presumptuous thing to say to a coworker, and likely would make someone hearing that feel like she was only valued by the people who say that sort of thing as a potential sexual partner. Would you say that to a male coworker?



In this case, I hope your team lead was cleared of any wrongdoing. Though I understand the woman's distress at having rumors spread around the office making her look like a drunk, it wasn't his fault.
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lwf said:
If you leave the door open when you meet one on one with female employees but not male employees, how do you prevent female employees from feeling like they are being publicly humiliated just because they are female? Treat your workers equally. If your boss requires you to have a female member of management present when you speak to female employees, I suggest that says more about your own past behavior than it does about the danger of having women in the workplace.
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Yeah, so now you are becoming more clear to me.

Its policy in a lot of places to have a member of the opposite sex with you when dealing with TMs of the opposite sex.

Why do you not know this?
 
lwf said:
If you leave the door open when you meet one on one with female employees but not male employees, how do you prevent female employees from feeling like they are being publicly humiliated just because they are female? Treat your workers equally. If your boss requires you to have a female member of management present when you speak to female employees, I suggest that says more about your own past behavior than it does about the danger of having women in the workplace.
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Also, if you're discussing job performance, the door is NEVER open.

Highly unprofessional.
 
SDET said:
Men generally don't vent like that. By the time they talk about things like that it means helping them fill out divorce paperwork, researching a good lawyer and helping research financial and custody strategies. I suspect it would even be more awkward if a man sprung into action and actively facilitated a woman divorce her husband.
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Men are often conditioned against seeking emotional help from others out of a fear of appearing weak. This is a cultural issue with how men treat each other, and in order to minimize the damage this can cause in our relationships, it's important for us to get past this discomfort and learn how to conduct ourselves around people who grew up with considerably less cultural pressure against showing emotion.
 
A manager? Never in a million years. The way to have more control is to be a contractor/consultant. It's much easier to discreetly move on if you don't like the environment.

KevinKohler said:
As a leader within a team, therapist is one of the hats you wear.


My advice? Don't be a manager.
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People sometimes refer to me as a "robot" and I'm OK with that. Women don't seem to like that, hence my disinterest in dealing with them.

Besides that, I produce quality deliverables. I think some people have got their nerve to insist that I show emotion. That's just as abusive as sexual harassment.

lwf said:
Men are often conditioned against seeking emotional help from others out of a fear of appearing weak. This is a cultural issue with how men treat each other, and in order to minimize the damage this can cause in our relationships, it's important for us to get past this discomfort and learn how to conduct ourselves around people who grew up with considerably less cultural pressure against showing emotion.
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KevinKohler said:
Also, if you're discussing job performance, the door is NEVER open.

Highly unprofessional.
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I agree. It should not be open when discussing private matters, therefore it should be closed no matter the sex of the employee. The threat of a woman concocting a BS story of assault or sexual harassment because the door was closed and there are no witnesses is about as credible a threat as the building being struck by lightning and killing someone or an employee going postal and coming in with a gun and killing everyone. Does it happen? Sadly, yes there are plenty of stories one can find of this taking place. Is it likely to happen to you? Not even marginally.
 
KevinKohler said:
Uh huh.

Here's the problem...both sexes have their quirks. Things that don't belong at work. But currently, only mens quirks are being aggressively target, because women are claiming victimhood. Meanwhile, the ones who treat women the absolute WORST at work? Other women.
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If some men's quirks make them behave in an unprofessional manner, then those quirks should be targeted. Similarly, any quirks that some women might have that make them behave in an unprofessional manner should similarly be targeted. I'm not sure what any of these quirks are, but tolerance for character flaws in the workplace stops at professionalism.
 
Men shouldn't be required to take that risk any more than they should be required to speed in the rain while driving on bald tires.

lwf said:
I agree. It should not be open when discussing private matters, therefore it should be closed no matter the sex of the employee. The threat of a woman concocting a BS story of assault or sexual harassment because the door was closed and there are no witnesses is about as credible a threat as the building being struck by lightning and killing someone or an employee going postal and coming in with a gun and killing everyone. Does it happen? Sadly, yes there are plenty of stories one can find of this taking place. Is it likely to happen to you? Not even marginally.
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SDET said:
People sometimes refer to me as a "robot" and I'm OK with that. Women don't seem to like that, hence my disinterest in dealing with them.

Besides that, I produce quality deliverables. I think some people have got their nerve to insist that I show emotion. That's just as abusive as sexual harassment.
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You're under no obligation to listen to anyone vent. So long as you are professional about it, you can excuse yourself and they can find someone else to vent to. If their venting crosses a line into sexual harassment, you are within your rights to report them.
 
I say something like "Alrighty, let's polish off this problem." Venters generally walk away on their own at that point.

lwf said:
You're under no obligation to listen to anyone vent. So long as you are professional about it, you can excuse yourself and they can find someone else to vent to. If their venting crosses a line into sexual harassment, you are within your rights to report them.
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SDET said:
Men shouldn't be required to take that risk any more than they should be required to speed in the rain while driving on bald tires.
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If they are in a supervisory role, yes they should. It bears mentioning that there is nothing stopping a male supervisor from falsely accusing a female employee of harassment. The fact that you would never do this (I'm presuming) should give you a clue as to how likely a female employee is to do this to you. Answer: The chances of this happening are almost non-existent. If your place of employment can demand you come to work during a thunder storm in spite of the risk of being struck by lightning, or if they can deny you the right to pat down your employees every morning despite the risk of someone going postal and bringing a gun to work, then they can demand that you treat your female employees the same as you treat your male employees in spite of the risk that a female employee might falsely accuse you of harassment if you are alone with them.
 
That's interesting. I'm still happy not to part of the management cesspool. I have watched from a distance as they play dirty. It's very believable that a couple of managers wanting to make director would try such tactics. Because of management playing dirty in this manner, guys like me who just want to produce their deliverables and be left alone have to listen to this toxic masculinity crap and how we are all potential sexual harassers.

lwf said:
If they are in a supervisory role, yes they should. It bears mentioning that there is nothing stopping a male supervisor from falsely accusing a female employee of harassment. The fact that you would never do this (I'm presuming) should give you a clue as to how likely a female employee is to do this to you. Answer: The chances of this happening are almost non-existent. If your place of employment can demand you come to work during a thunder storm in spite of the risk of being struck by lightning, or if they can deny you the right to pat down your employees every morning despite the risk of someone going postal and bringing a gun to work, then they can demand that you treat your female employees the same as you treat your male employees in spite of the risk that a female employee might falsely accuse you of harassment if you are alone with them.
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lwf said:
That is a more realistic example, but the same logic applies. "I would treat you better" is an awkward and presumptuous thing to say to a coworker, and likely would make someone hearing that feel like she was only valued by the people who say that sort of thing as a potential sexual partner. Would you say that to a male coworker?



In this case, I hope your team lead was cleared of any wrongdoing. Though I understand the woman's distress at having rumors spread around the office making her look like a drunk, it wasn't his fault.
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The issue with the first, is that the guy trying to console the woman was clearly trying to get to date the woman. The choice of words "I would treat you better" is wrong. Using the words, "you deserve better" would not cause any issues


As for the second, the issue would I expect not be the concern she is a drunk but that the ride home was not the only thing that occurred or the only thing that she wanted to occur.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
The issue with the first, is that the guy trying to console the woman was clearly trying to get to date the woman. The choice of words "I would treat you better" is wrong. Using the words, "you deserve better" would not cause any issues

As for the second, the issue would I expect not be the concern she is a drunk but that the ride home was not the only thing that occurred or the only thing that she wanted to occur.
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Agreed.
 
lwf said:
Do you do the same when you meet with your male employees?
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No
There is a difference between he said versus he said and he said versus she said.
A female always tells the truth, you should have learn that during Kavanaugh hearings.
 
You know, the Western women on this message board are the only ones I interact with. Y'all help fan the flames, just sayin'. The last Western woman I had any contact with was this on my last gig where this stupid harpy from the other side of the floor complained about our team working with the lights off. It became a big battle with about 18 male programmers ready to leave the company en masse. She pushed that it was a "safety issue". We pushed back that the fluorescent lights hurt our eyes. We came to a deal where about 10% of the lights were turned on. It's been about a year since I have had to be in ongoing contact with a Western woman. It has been a good year. Working with Indians has its irritations, but they pale in comparison to having a Western woman around.


Superfly said:
Do you have like a rubber stamp? Because all your posts are the exact same thing. Blah blah evil women blah blah.
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