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Thread: Victimless Crimes

  1. #101
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    Re: Victimless Crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    Everything you state is self inflicted problems.

    Using a pimp is a personal choice.
    Drugs are a personal choice.
    No skills is a personal choice.

    Quite possibly those are the consequences of present or former actions, but none are unavoidable.
    Using a pimp is a personal choice. - Not always
    Drugs are a personal choice. - Not always
    No skills is a personal choice. - Not always

    Sometimes people are coerced and/or forced to do thing under duress.

    I am not sure why you two are even arguing against sex slavery or poverty driven pimp prostitution, etc.

    They are just facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    If the argument against prostitution is that some may be forced into it, the crime is the forcing, not the prostitution.
    We are not arguing that... we are arguing his stupid claim that all prostitution is consensual.

  2. #102
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    Re: Victimless Crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Using a pimp is a personal choice. - Not always
    Drugs are a personal choice. - Not always
    No skills is a personal choice. - Not always

    Sometimes people are coerced and/or forced to do thing under duress.

    I am not sure why you two are even arguing against sex slavery or poverty driven pimp prostitution, etc.

    They are just facts.



    We are not arguing that... we are arguing his stupid claim that all prostitution is consensual.
    Always
    Always
    Always

    Like I said, if people are forced into something, then the crime is the forcing.

    Who said all prostitution is consensual? I missed that.

  3. #103
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    Re: Victimless Crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    Always
    Always
    Always

    Like I said, if people are forced into something, then the crime is the forcing.

    Who said all prostitution is consensual? I missed that.
    Lacking skills is not a choice... half the population has an IQ UNDER 100... and 2-4% are in the low 80's and below.
    Having a pimp can be forced on a person too... as well as drugs, getting them addicted and on the streets.
    Girl, 17, 'plied with drugs and forced into prostitution' after being lured to motel with promise of babysitting job | The Independent

    Like I said... facts.

    And nobody is talking about what is and what is not a crime except you.

  4. #104
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    Re: Victimless Crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Victimless crimes are created by laws designed to prevent possible harms, or enforce moral codes. They include individual activities and consensual activities where there is no actual victim. However, the potential for harms (moral or actual) is considered sufficient cause to punish.

    The short list includes:

    Drug use.

    Drunk driving.

    Driving without seat belts, baby seats, required insurance coverage, license, registration, license plates.

    Prostitution.

    "Deviant" sexual behaviors.

    Trespassing.

    Smuggling.

    Speeding.

    Arms trafficking.

    and so on.
    I would put gun control measures in this category as well.

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    Re: Victimless Crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    The point is not that some prostitutes like their work it is that the overall job of prostitution contains victims...
    What are your thoughts on prostitution in places where it is legal and there are laws to protect them, like, for example, in Amsterdam?

  6. #106
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    Re: Victimless Crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    What are your thoughts on prostitution in places where it is legal and there are laws to protect them, like, for example, in Amsterdam?
    I think all prostitution should be legalized... it is stupid to make it illegal and just makes matters worse rather than better. It is not the governments job to tell people what they can do with their bodies as long as it is not hurting anybody...

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    Re: Victimless Crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I think all prostitution should be legalized... it is stupid to make it illegal and just makes matters worse rather than better. It is not the governments job to tell people what they can do with their bodies as long as it is not hurting anybody...
    It makes sense, at least in theory.

    But in practice, the experience of Amsterdam in legalizing prostitution has not been smooth or one of unmitigated success. At all.

    “Prostitution has remained connected to criminal activities, which has led the authorities to take several measures, including detailed plans to help the prostitutes quit the sex trade and find other professions.

    In 2005 Amma Asante and Karina Schaapman, two councilors for the Labour Party (Netherlands), wrote a report, "Het onzichtbare zichtbaar gemaakt" (Making the Invisible Visible). Schaapman had once been a prostitute and was getting information about the influx of organized crime and violence into the business. Other reports came out around the same time. They concluded that a large number of prostitutes in Amsterdam were being forced to work and were being abused by pimps and criminal gangs, and that the goals of legalization were failing.[17][18]...

    At the end of 2008, Mayor Cohen announced plans to close half of the city's 400 prostitution windows because of suspected criminal gang activity. The mayor is also closing some of the city's 70 marijuana cafes and sex clubs.[8] This comes at the same time as the Government's decision to ban the sale of "magic mushrooms" and the closure of all coffee shops situated near schools...

    Many victims of human trafficking are led to believe by organized criminals that they are being offered work in hotels or restaurants or in child care and are forced into prostitution with the threat or actual use of violence. Estimates of the number of victims vary from 1,000 to 7,000 on a yearly basis. Most police investigations on human trafficking concern legal sex businesses. All sectors of prostitution are well represented in these investigations, but particularly the window brothels are overrepresented. [29]...

    The United States Department of State Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons ranks the Netherlands as a 'Tier 1' country.[34]“
    Prostitution in the Netherlands - Wikipedia

    So I don’t know. Legalized prostitution; its one of those “darned if you do, darned if you don’t” type situations. It seems to be a little different than just selling cars or rugs or something. It seems far more predisposed to creating situations for exploitation and abuse.

  8. #108
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    Re: Victimless Crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    If there is coercion and duress then it is not consensual...
    If a frog had wings, he would not bump his ass when he jumps.

  9. #109
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    Re: Victimless Crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    It makes sense, at least in theory.

    But in practice, the experience of Amsterdam in legalizing prostitution has not been smooth or one of unmitigated success. At all.

    “Prostitution has remained connected to criminal activities, which has led the authorities to take several measures, including detailed plans to help the prostitutes quit the sex trade and find other professions.

    In 2005 Amma Asante and Karina Schaapman, two councilors for the Labour Party (Netherlands), wrote a report, "Het onzichtbare zichtbaar gemaakt" (Making the Invisible Visible). Schaapman had once been a prostitute and was getting information about the influx of organized crime and violence into the business. Other reports came out around the same time. They concluded that a large number of prostitutes in Amsterdam were being forced to work and were being abused by pimps and criminal gangs, and that the goals of legalization were failing.[17][18]...

    At the end of 2008, Mayor Cohen announced plans to close half of the city's 400 prostitution windows because of suspected criminal gang activity. The mayor is also closing some of the city's 70 marijuana cafes and sex clubs.[8] This comes at the same time as the Government's decision to ban the sale of "magic mushrooms" and the closure of all coffee shops situated near schools...

    Many victims of human trafficking are led to believe by organized criminals that they are being offered work in hotels or restaurants or in child care and are forced into prostitution with the threat or actual use of violence. Estimates of the number of victims vary from 1,000 to 7,000 on a yearly basis. Most police investigations on human trafficking concern legal sex businesses. All sectors of prostitution are well represented in these investigations, but particularly the window brothels are overrepresented. [29]...

    The United States Department of State Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons ranks the Netherlands as a 'Tier 1' country.[34]“
    Prostitution in the Netherlands - Wikipedia

    So I don’t know. Legalized prostitution; its one of those “darned if you do, darned if you don’t” type situations. It seems to be a little different than just selling cars or rugs or something. It seems far more predisposed to creating situations for exploitation and abuse.
    Poverty stricken and uneducated people will always face crime and dire situations...

    I guess I was talking about more normal people... like you say out loud, "damn I am horny" and somebody else responds, in front of a cop, "$50 bucks and I'll do you"... I know this is ridiculous but it should not be illegal.

  10. #110
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    Re: Victimless Crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Poverty stricken and uneducated people will always face crime and dire situations...

    I guess I was talking about more normal people... like you say out loud, "damn I am horny" and somebody else responds, in front of a cop, "$50 bucks and I'll do you"... I know this is ridiculous but it should not be illegal.
    Yeah, but how many "normal" women go into prostitution because they find it to be a satisfying and fulfilling career? How many hotel chains get into international human trafficking just to staff the cleaning maid crews for their rooms?

    Prostitution just seems to be slightly different than other "goods and services" in the economy- far more predisposed to exploitation, violence, and abuse.

    I am not saying I have the answer. It's a very interesting question for me. The idea of legalizing prostitution in places like Amsterdam was that if you make sex a legal "goods and services" in the economy, then the crime will be taken out of it. I suspect they were thinking it would do for sex what getting rid of the prohibition did for alcohol in the 1930s. But it is not working out that way. I am just wondering if prostitution could ever, even theoretically, ever be an exploitation, violence, and abuse-free "goods and service" like others in the economy.

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