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Automatic license plate readers and search and seizure?

Nilhus said:
Talking about supposed mistakes in one's logic without being able to point them out and show which logical fallacy is committed, shows that you know absolutely nothing about logic!
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You've got a lot to learn about yourself. You're not getting anything else from me.
 
In commercial areas, on the roads, I don't like it, strongly oppose it, but can see its usefulness, and agree for the most part you have no reasonable expectation to privacy driving a vehicle in public. (the tags, not what's in the vehicle )

In a residential area, and/or taking action on private property as a result, I'm absolutely against.
 
ChezC3 said:
agree for the most part you have no reasonable expectation to privacy driving a vehicle in public. (the tags, not what's in the vehicle )
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So you wouldn't mind wearing a gps bracelet all the time(same for your vehicle), which would be used for recording all your movements outside private homes, and you wouldn't mind all the info being published on the internet and made accessible to anyone... right?
 
Nilhus said:
So you wouldn't mind wearing a gps bracelet all the time(same for your vehicle), which would be used for recording all your movements outside private homes, and you wouldn't mind all the info being published on the internet and made accessible to anyone... right?
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the cops publish and post to the internet the results of the tags they have run thru their database! who knew?
 
Nilhus said:
So you wouldn't mind wearing a gps bracelet all the time(same for your vehicle), which would be used for recording all your movements outside private homes, and you wouldn't mind all the info being published on the internet and made accessible to anyone... right?
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Of course I would mind, don't be silly but essentially that's what all of us do with our cell phones (even the publishing part, we do that ourselves, how many places have people checked-in), no? With our smart watches -- got one of them there toll road boxes in your car (called IPASS here in IL)? What you think that's sending out.

If you don't think something is tracking us, you haven't been paying attention.
 
Nilhus said:
It looks like a device designed to help a totalitarian state.


You think you are a law abiding citizen, don't you?

Can you tell us how many criminal laws are there in the US? I'm very curious(and also curious about how one can obey them if they're too many)


It depends. It's one thing when the plate is run on case-by-case scenario by a cop, another thing when it's done automatically every time you get close to a camera, a yet another thing when your each automatically read plate is stored in some system(bye, bye privacy completely - they're actually storing your movements - something totalitarian dream of)


No, not really. Your "civil liberties" no longer exist when you live in a medium with constant surveillance in the name of helping "law enforcement" (anyway, the idea of "civil liberties" in the US is a really bad joke)
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Thank you, very well stated!!!

Even though it's true that I started this thread because I had a personal grudge, just as I was accused of, my grudge has made me far more aware of what is going on and it is time others know as well.

This is a HUGE civil liberties issue...
 
Napoleon said:
Surveillance would only be a civil liberties violation if there was a civil liberty for criminals to evade law enforcement. There’s no such thing. What you do in public is, by definition, not a private matter so what civil liberty do you think is violated by constant passive surveillance of public life?
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So you are one of those that read "1984" as a to do list, got it...
 
Nilhus said:
Wrong. Moreover, nonsensical.


Wrong again. The details of your life in public are pretty much private. When you enter your PIN for your credit card in a store, that's a private matter despite being in a public place. Your discussion with a person in restaurant or on a bench in a park is also private. Your detailed movements in public are private. If the state tracks your presence/movements then the state infringes on your liberty to be free from state control of your movements in public spaces.

Apparently you're a fan of strong state control and surveillance. Why? Are you so afraid of criminals? Do you trust the state so much?
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I have been lied to far more often by law enforcement than "criminals"...
 
justabubba said:
in each plate inquiry entered into the database, are the police not looking for a criminal?
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No if there was no crime reported or observed.

It is like a hunter shooting at a shaking bush because, maybe there was a deer in there...

According to the fourth amendment we have a right to personal privacy.

Yes I am well aware the "patriot act" disposed of those rights, and nobody really gives a **** until it affects them.

No one cared about how FISA warrants worked until people they supported were under investigation.

If supporting civil liberties makes me a liberal, so be it.

However let it be known I am a very well armed and trained liberal...
 
OldFatGuy said:
Since almost every new vehicle is equipped with either wifi or cellular builtin today, or both, not to mention mapping and location schemes both hardware and software, tracking any vehicle at anytime is not problematic. Even when the antenna is removed from the vehicle, wifi and cellular connections are turned off, sensor chips are still active elsewhere in the vehicle, and truly sensitive equipment in planes, helicopters and satellites can track them by serial #'s. License plates are relatively moot today. More a scheme for state fees than identification of vehicles. New police scanners can id vehicles by their keyless entry system serial #'s from more than 2 miles away. Some can even control locking systems and engine performance. As technology marches on, identification of vehicles and control thereof will only increase in capability. Two years ago my then 12 year old grandson showed me how to unlock my Caddy and start the engine, while we were in my living room, with his smart phone. My 2011 Caddy has keyless entry and remote engine start. His smartphone had software that scanned the remote fob in my pocket, and had greater performance range than my remote. He then showed me other software in his phone, having now id'd my lock system, which could use Find My Phone software from Apple to track my car at all times. He had other schemes for Android, Garmin, Google Maps, and so on.

Don't be that concerned about police, government, or big corporations tracking you. Worry about 12 year olds seeking to make you crazy as they giggle maniacally.
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Great post!!!!
 
Napoleon said:
The license plate is publicly displayed so there can be no reasonable expectation of privacy in terms of the data linked to it. There is no violation if the police are just being looky-loos. Where a civil liberties problem does occur is in a scenario where the police then use that data for reasons unrelated to law enforcement.
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So there's no need for probable cause or warrants? If your out in public your subjectto being searched without consent?

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trouble13 said:
So there's no need for probable cause or warrants? If your out in public your subjectto being searched without consent?
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Now we’re getting into different things. The act of observing your public behavior or an object that you are displaying publicly does not require probable cause. Likewise, neither does looking at information already in the public domain on the basis of those observations.
 
GDViking said:
No if there was no crime reported or observed.
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that driver may not have committed a crime. however, he may be someone who is the subject of a silver alert. being able to identify him/her before they unintentionally hurt themselves or others would be an excellent application of the tag reading capability

It is like a hunter shooting at a shaking bush because, maybe there was a deer in there...
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no shooting. more like closely observing because that quarry may be one that is targeted for apprehension*

According to the fourth amendment we have a right to personal privacy.
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consider this an invitation to show us how running your tags on the public roadway is a violation of your fourth amendment
even if you can't make that explanation good, at least try to make it funny

Yes I am well aware the "patriot act" disposed of those rights, and nobody really gives a **** until it affects them.
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weak sauce there. any attorney should be able to recognize that a law can never violate a Constitutional right and defend you with such basic knowledge

No one cared about how FISA warrants worked until people they supported were under investigation.
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sure people care about FISA warrants and how to assure they are not in violation of the US Constitution

If supporting civil liberties makes me a liberal, so be it.
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no need for any label. but if you insist on having a label, try obtaining the one that says "smart"

However let it be known I am a very well armed and trained liberal...
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thanks for sharing, but i am unable to figure out why you would feel the need to let us know about your extensive armaments and your training to use them. why you would volunteer to shake that bush so loudly and obviously [*see my comment above]
it's almost as if you would want that self description to show up when they next run your tags
 
Napoleon said:
Now we’re getting into different things. The act of observing your public behavior or an object that you are displaying publicly does not require probable cause. Likewise, neither does looking at information already in the public domain on the basis of those observations.
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Yet they need a search warrant to search your vehicle. Why wouldnt you need probable cause to run a playe based on the same reasoning?

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trouble13 said:
Yet they need a search warrant to search your vehicle. Why wouldnt you need probable cause to run a playe based on the same reasoning?

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One is a remote non intrusive visual inspection the other is an intrusive physical search.

Looking at something and identifying it I do not see as a search when done remotely (ie across the street), but a stop and search like stop and frisk I do view as a search and should require a warrant or valid reasonings

Just imagine however when facial recognition software and security cameras become more common. You could be identified where ever you go from the time you leave your house and get to where ever you go, and back. Zero secrets from the government when that happens
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
One is a remote non intrusive visual inspection the other is an intrusive physical search.

Looking at something and identifying it I do not see as a search when done remotely (ie across the street), but a stop and search like stop and frisk I do view as a search and should require a warrant or valid reasonings

Just imagine however when facial recognition software and security cameras become more common. You could be identified where ever you go from the time you leave your house and get to where ever you go, and back. Zero secrets from the government when that happens
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Exactly imagine that. Thats why i think something as innocuous as scanning plate is worthy of discussing now ehile these things are in its infancy stage. Where is the line drawn is a valid question and worthy of debate.

For instance if its ok for them to run your plate even before you have been pulled over for violating any laws what is the argumrnt for them not being able to randomly pull people over to check out the driver or passengers of a vehicle.

It seems to me there needs to be some sort of standard that requires probable cause or your creating a system that's ripe for abuse. Yes you will catch more law breakers but is the cost worth it?



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trouble13 said:
Exactly imagine that. Thats why i think something as innocuous as scanning plate is worthy of discussing now ehile these things are in its infancy stage. Where is the line drawn is a valid question and worthy of debate.

For instance if its ok for them to run your plate even before you have been pulled over for violating any laws what is the argumrnt for them not being able to randomly pull people over to check out the driver or passengers of a vehicle.

It seems to me there needs to be some sort of standard that requires probable cause or your creating a system that's ripe for abuse. Yes you will catch more law breakers but is the cost worth it?



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I absolutely do not support stop and frisk, or carding (asking for ID of people on the street and recording the interaction) and feel that is an unreasonable search and seizure. They are obtrusive and interfere in the activities of free individuals.

Automatic license plate readers, I do not like one bit, but am unsure about it's legality. It is not really a search or seizure, but a mass identification of vehicle ownership through an openly public process that is not intrusive nor do they interfere with the activities of a free individual. There can be huge opportunities for abuse from it however. Where authorities can track individuals use the information to obstruct that persons activities. In the 1950's and 60's it could have been used to hurt the civil rights movement, and anti war protesting. The Hoover FBI would not have been above using that information in a harmful way. Camera's and Facial recognition software take that to an even higher level for potentials for abuse
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
I absolutely do not support stop and frisk, or carding (asking for ID of people on the street and recording the interaction) and feel that is an unreasonable search and seizure. They are obtrusive and interfere in the activities of free individuals.

Automatic license plate readers, I do not like one bit, but am unsure about it's legality. It is not really a search or seizure, but a mass identification of vehicle ownership through an openly public process that is not intrusive nor do they interfere with the activities of a free individual. There can be huge opportunities for abuse from it however. Where authorities can track individuals use the information to obstruct that persons activities. In the 1950's and 60's it could have been used to hurt the civil rights movement, and anti war protesting. The Hoover FBI would not have been above using that information in a harmful way. Camera's and Facial recognition software take that to an even higher level for potentials for abuse
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Where do you draw the line on the plate scanners. If the plates come back as being registered to someone with a warrant on them is that enough to pull the driver over?

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trouble13 said:
Where do you draw the line on the plate scanners. If the plates come back as being registered to someone with a warrant on them is that enough to pull the driver over?

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That would be reasonable suspicion to pull the vehicle over provide license plate readers/scanners are legal
 
trouble13 said:
Exactly imagine that. Thats why i think something as innocuous as scanning plate is worthy of discussing now ehile these things are in its infancy stage. Where is the line drawn is a valid question and worthy of debate.

For instance if its ok for them to run your plate even before you have been pulled over for violating any laws what is the argumrnt for them not being able to randomly pull people over to check out the driver or passengers of a vehicle.

It seems to me there needs to be some sort of standard that requires probable cause or your creating a system that's ripe for abuse. Yes you will catch more law breakers but is the cost worth it?



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what is the cost, exactly?
 
trouble13 said:
The right to privacy.

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In no way have you - or can - you make a showing where right to privacy was lost
 
Reading license plates is a tool police can use to combat crime. Crime is a terrible thing, isn't it? To prevent good, decent people from being victimized by criminal acts by criminals? But many Democrats seem to not see it that way.

Most Republicans see a police officer stopping traffic so a momma cat can carry her kitten safely across the street - and smile:

edb6e4a8d24831959cf3d97f52da31bf.jpg


Many Democrats angrily see a white supremacist cop doing a Nazi salute to an all white people crowd. Privileged racist white men to be specific. :2razz:
 
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