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Thread: Automatic license plate readers and search and seizure?

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    Re: Automatic license plate readers and search and seizure?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    In no way have you - or can - you make a showing where right to privacy was lost
    As I mentioned in another thread on a similar topic (Driver license databases), the analysis applied here is wrong (although the balance will be a little different here). I don't understand why people insist on looking through the telescope from the wrong end....
    Quote Originally Posted by NWRatCon
    The analysis is:
    A) Is your information being searched (looked at)? IF YES. THEN,
    B) Has a Warrant been obtained based upon probable cause? IF NO, THEN
    C) Is there a recognized exception to the warrant requirement that applies?
    The "no harm, no foul" rule from pickup basketball does not apply to 4th Amendment jurisprudence.
    People tend to jump to the conclusion without considering the context and analysis. What I said there applies here, too:
    Consider, for example: information indicates that a criminal is "in your neighborhood." Can police drive up and down your street looking for him? Yes, it is a public thoroughfare, and they are searching in "plain view" territory. Can they search your back yard for him? No, because they would have to establish a "reasonable suspicion" to believe he is at that particular place. Can they search your house? No, because they would have to establish "probable cause," and obtain a warrant.
    In this context, the "public information" is the license plate which can be seen whenever a vehicle drives or parks on a public street. But, that license plate is a particularized identifier, for a particular purpose. When information is aggregated into a "data base" it changes its character, but does not lose its status - the individual, identifiable records are still "personal" - identifiable to me. It is immaterial that it is now "searchable" in a technical sense, but relevant that it is "searched" in a constitutional sense. My individual record is being searched, whether it is the target of the search or not.

    The next question becomes, "what is it being used for" and is that an authorized purpose? We're getting into surveillance-State territory, here, and the consequences have meaning. How far are we, as a society, willing to stretch that "plain view" doctrine?

  2. #82
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    Re: Automatic license plate readers and search and seizure?

    If a plane flies over your house, people in the plane can "see" your entire yard, house, etc. What if it is a helicopter that hovers? Now it is not just casual observation. What if they are using binoculars to peer through your skylights? What if they are using night vision to see who is in the house, and noting when it is occupied, and watching who is coming and going and following them? Law enforcement is always about line drawing, and courts are always distinguishing these kinds of activities based upon that ubiquitous "right to privacy" and "expectation of privacy".

    The issue here, I will admit, is subtle, because the scanning is constant, and mechanical, but it comes back to the question: Why? Does the law enforcer have a legitimate reason for conducting the "search"? LosAngelesAngel earlier noted, "If your auto is reported missing or the owner has outstanding warrents it shows up. Like the old "hot list" patrol cops used to get each shift." In that case, there was a particularized reason for that query. In this case, there isn't. If there isn't a particularized reason, we are now into unauthorized territory, and the reason can't just be "crime happens".

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    Re: Automatic license plate readers and search and seizure?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Reading license plates is a tool police can use to combat crime. Crime is a terrible thing, isn't it? To prevent good, decent people from being victimized by criminal acts by criminals? But many Democrats seem to not see it that way.

    Most Republicans see a police officer stopping traffic so a momma cat can carry her kitten safely across the street - and smile:



    Many Democrats angrily see a white supremacist cop doing a Nazi salute to an all white people crowd. Privileged racist white men to be specific.

    Funny I bet you felt the same way when the "patriot act" got shoved down our throats. Remember if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear???

    Yeah a lot of right wingers believed that right up until trump and company got swept up in fisa warrants...

    Innocent until proven guilty unless a cop is curious about who is in that car???

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    Re: Automatic license plate readers and search and seizure?

    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    Where do you draw the line on the plate scanners. If the plates come back as being registered to someone with a warrant on them is that enough to pull the driver over?

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    I was told by a lawyer when I started looking into this that if the officer can see the driver and he /she fits the description of the owner he has probable cause to stop it.

    If he can not see the driver he still has probable cause, however if the driver is a 90 year old woman he does not.

    How many cops will admit they could see the driver under those rules?

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    Re: Automatic license plate readers and search and seizure?

    Quote Originally Posted by NWRatCon View Post
    If a plane flies over your house, people in the plane can "see" your entire yard, house, etc. What if it is a helicopter that hovers? Now it is not just casual observation. What if they are using binoculars to peer through your skylights? What if they are using night vision to see who is in the house, and noting when it is occupied, and watching who is coming and going and following them? Law enforcement is always about line drawing, and courts are always distinguishing these kinds of activities based upon that ubiquitous "right to privacy" and "expectation of privacy".

    The issue here, I will admit, is subtle, because the scanning is constant, and mechanical, but it comes back to the question: Why? Does the law enforcer have a legitimate reason for conducting the "search"? LosAngelesAngel earlier noted, "If your auto is reported missing or the owner has outstanding warrents it shows up. Like the old "hot list" patrol cops used to get each shift." In that case, there was a particularized reason for that query. In this case, there isn't. If there isn't a particularized reason, we are now into unauthorized territory, and the reason can't just be "crime happens".
    Agreed, what about drones, how close and how often can they buzz your house before you can. Shoot them down???

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    Re: Automatic license plate readers and search and seizure?

    Quote Originally Posted by GDViking View Post
    Agreed, what about drones, how close and how often can they buzz your house before you can. Shoot them down???
    Never.

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    Re: Automatic license plate readers and search and seizure?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Law enforcement itself and as an extension of government can use law enforcement for personal retaliations, reasons of personal profit, and to eliminate political adversaries. It also allows reputation destruction of guilt by association, could end up being leaked publicly to expose extra-marital affairs and other private personal matters etc.
    all of those things law enforcement could be doing now, if it chose to
    tag reading technology would not create such corruption, only offer an easier way to exercise it
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    "To me free speech is not when you see something good and then you purposefully write bad. To me thatís very dangerous speech and you become angry at it. But thatís not free speech." ~ tRump

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    Re: Automatic license plate readers and search and seizure?

    Quote Originally Posted by NWRatCon View Post
    As I mentioned in another thread on a similar topic (Driver license databases), the analysis applied here is wrong (although the balance will be a little different here). I don't understand why people insist on looking through the telescope from the wrong end....

    People tend to jump to the conclusion without considering the context and analysis. What I said there applies here, too:

    In this context, the "public information" is the license plate which can be seen whenever a vehicle drives or parks on a public street. But, that license plate is a particularized identifier, for a particular purpose. When information is aggregated into a "data base" it changes its character, but does not lose its status - the individual, identifiable records are still "personal" - identifiable to me. It is immaterial that it is now "searchable" in a technical sense, but relevant that it is "searched" in a constitutional sense. My individual record is being searched, whether it is the target of the search or not.
    this is absurd as pretending a law enforcement officer is violating your rights while viewing your public person and identifying you based on your "personal" appearance
    it is open season on your tags (or your face) when they are publicly viewable
    that database owned by the government, used to determine if your tag is associated with any outstanding legal matters, is not yours and to search those public records in no way violates your Constitutional rights

    The next question becomes, "what is it being used for" and is that an authorized purpose? We're getting into surveillance-State territory, here, and the consequences have meaning. How far are we, as a society, willing to stretch that "plain view" doctrine?
    law enforcement is very much an authorized purpose
    to avoid being subjected to such scrutiny, you have two options:
    1. do not go out in public, where the police can identify your person or your tagged vehicle; and/or
    2. do not commit any violation which would be legally questionable

    personally, i am delighted that law enforcement is using advances in technology to find and apprehend the bad guys. they cannot harm me and mine if they are no longer on the public streets
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    "To me free speech is not when you see something good and then you purposefully write bad. To me thatís very dangerous speech and you become angry at it. But thatís not free speech." ~ tRump

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    Re: Automatic license plate readers and search and seizure?

    Quote Originally Posted by NWRatCon View Post
    If a plane flies over your house, people in the plane can "see" your entire yard, house, etc. What if it is a helicopter that hovers? Now it is not just casual observation. What if they are using binoculars to peer through your skylights? What if they are using night vision to see who is in the house, and noting when it is occupied, and watching who is coming and going and following them? Law enforcement is always about line drawing, and courts are always distinguishing these kinds of activities based upon that ubiquitous "right to privacy" and "expectation of privacy".

    The issue here, I will admit, is subtle, because the scanning is constant, and mechanical, but it comes back to the question: Why? Does the law enforcer have a legitimate reason for conducting the "search"? LosAngelesAngel earlier noted, "If your auto is reported missing or the owner has outstanding warrents it shows up. Like the old "hot list" patrol cops used to get each shift." In that case, there was a particularized reason for that query. In this case, there isn't. If there isn't a particularized reason, we are now into unauthorized territory, and the reason can't just be "crime happens".
    that database identifying legal offenses based on the tag number of the individual who is a subject of legal inquiry, THAT is your particularized reason for inquiry
    if your name does not appear on that particularized list, then the police will not bother to pull you over for a conversation
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    "To me free speech is not when you see something good and then you purposefully write bad. To me thatís very dangerous speech and you become angry at it. But thatís not free speech." ~ tRump

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