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Our Lawless Precedent

NWRatCon

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Yes, that was intended to be a pun.

Prior to the present, Richard Nixon was considered the paradigm of the "lawless President". He abused his position, used government agencies to do his political dirty work, engaged in various flat-out illegal activities, obstructed justice, stonewalled the work of Congress, and was, all in all, a very bad guy. He had competition, however. Of course, there are historical precedents, like Thomas Jefferson having his former VP tried for treason; Lincoln's suspension of Habeas Corpus; and FDR's internment of Japanese during WWII, that were particularly egregious. But most historians believe that Presidents, by and large, have followed the norms of their day and the legal proscriptions that apply to their office. There have been exceptions, and most of them are modern. Ronald Reagan and G.H.W. Bush probably were closest during the Iran-Contra affair; and VP Cheney's activities regarding Valerie Plame, but, again, by and large they recognized that what they were doing in that affair was the exception, and conducted themselves largely within the confines of the law and constitutional norms.

Donald Trump is both quantitatively and qualitatively different. And it's not just "criminality" that I'm talking about here (although there is plenty of that), it is the attitude that "the law" simply doesn't apply to him, or anything he does. It started during his campaign, but has never abated. Accepting assistance from foreign interests; his refusal to release his tax returns was a sign (not a legal requirement, and Mitt Romney tried to do it too) of his indifference to precedent or norms. It is not so much that he did it, but why he does it that is germane.

But it wasn't until he occupied the office that most people realized that his indifference to norms extended to both the law and the Constitution. (The abetting by his party may be a separate thread topic.) The first clue was his refusal to divest from private interests that conflict with his duties as President - and it has been all downhill from there. He hired his family to be his "advisors", in direct contravention of federal law. Cabinet picks and other appointments were not made for competence or appropriateness, or even for policy goals, but to reward cronies (something too prevalent already, but turned "up to 11" by Trump), and often in open defiance of common sense. It has escalated since. He disregards any advice that is contrary to his whims, and castigates (or fires) those who provide it - publicly. He openly flaunts his coziness with foreign adversaries and disses our allies relentlessly. He defies anything Congress wants, unless he is appropriately flattered in the process. He actively interfered with legal processes and investigations (Sessions, Comey, Mueller, Congress), and now is stonewalling everything Congress is seeking. That is the definition of lawlessness.

At least Nixon recognized he was a crook and tried to hide it. Trump simply doesn't care.
 
Yes, that was intended to be a pun.

Prior to the present, Richard Nixon was considered the paradigm of the "lawless President". He abused his position, used government agencies to do his political dirty work, engaged in various flat-out illegal activities, obstructed justice, stonewalled the work of Congress, and was, all in all, a very bad guy. He had competition, however. Of course, there are historical precedents, like Thomas Jefferson having his former VP tried for treason; Lincoln's suspension of Habeas Corpus; and FDR's internment of Japanese during WWII, that were particularly egregious. But most historians believe that Presidents, by and large, have followed the norms of their day and the legal proscriptions that apply to their office. There have been exceptions, and most of them are modern. Ronald Reagan and G.H.W. Bush probably were closest during the Iran-Contra affair; and VP Cheney's activities regarding Valerie Plame, but, again, by and large they recognized that what they were doing in that affair was the exception, and conducted themselves largely within the confines of the law and constitutional norms.

Donald Trump is both quantitatively and qualitatively different. And it's not just "criminality" that I'm talking about here (although there is plenty of that), it is the attitude that "the law" simply doesn't apply to him, or anything he does. It started during his campaign, but has never abated. Accepting assistance from foreign interests; his refusal to release his tax returns was a sign (not a legal requirement, and Mitt Romney tried to do it too) of his indifference to precedent or norms. It is not so much that he did it, but why he does it that is germane.

But it wasn't until he occupied the office that most people realized that his indifference to norms extended to both the law and the Constitution. (The abetting by his party may be a separate thread topic.) The first clue was his refusal to divest from private interests that conflict with his duties as President - and it has been all downhill from there. He hired his family to be his "advisors", in direct contravention of federal law. Cabinet picks and other appointments were not made for competence or appropriateness, or even for policy goals, but to reward cronies (something too prevalent already, but turned "up to 11" by Trump), and often in open defiance of common sense. It has escalated since. He disregards any advice that is contrary to his whims, and castigates (or fires) those who provide it - publicly. He openly flaunts his coziness with foreign adversaries and disses our allies relentlessly. He defies anything Congress wants, unless he is appropriately flattered in the process. He actively interfered with legal processes and investigations (Sessions, Comey, Mueller, Congress), and now is stonewalling everything Congress is seeking. That is the definition of lawlessness.

At least Nixon recognized he was a crook and tried to hide it. Trump simply doesn't care.

Where as Obama denied it while performing those lies. And more and more evidence is coming forth that he broke the law numerous times.

Time to expand your outlook.
 
Trump hid his many flings with prostitutes during the campaign, and paid them off towards the end of his campaign to keep them quiet (at least until after the election = fraud).

I doubt that Trump would have generated the votes that he did if Americans had been fully aware of his adulterous and *****-grabbing ways.
 
Where as Obama denied it while performing those lies. And more and more evidence is coming forth that he broke the law numerous times.

Time to expand your outlook.

Obama isn't President, and nothing he did (which, I note, you can't cite), comes close to the present circumstance. I know you know this, because that is why you are trying to derail the conversation.
 
Yes, that was intended to be a pun.

Prior to the present, Richard Nixon was considered the paradigm of the "lawless President". He abused his position, used government agencies to do his political dirty work, engaged in various flat-out illegal activities, obstructed justice, stonewalled the work of Congress, and was, all in all, a very bad guy. He had competition, however. Of course, there are historical precedents, like Thomas Jefferson having his former VP tried for treason; Lincoln's suspension of Habeas Corpus; and FDR's internment of Japanese during WWII, that were particularly egregious. But most historians believe that Presidents, by and large, have followed the norms of their day and the legal proscriptions that apply to their office. There have been exceptions, and most of them are modern. Ronald Reagan and G.H.W. Bush probably were closest during the Iran-Contra affair; and VP Cheney's activities regarding Valerie Plame, but, again, by and large they recognized that what they were doing in that affair was the exception, and conducted themselves largely within the confines of the law and constitutional norms.

Donald Trump is both quantitatively and qualitatively different. And it's not just "criminality" that I'm talking about here (although there is plenty of that), it is the attitude that "the law" simply doesn't apply to him, or anything he does. It started during his campaign, but has never abated. Accepting assistance from foreign interests; his refusal to release his tax returns was a sign (not a legal requirement, and Mitt Romney tried to do it too) of his indifference to precedent or norms. It is not so much that he did it, but why he does it that is germane.

But it wasn't until he occupied the office that most people realized that his indifference to norms extended to both the law and the Constitution. (The abetting by his party may be a separate thread topic.) The first clue was his refusal to divest from private interests that conflict with his duties as President - and it has been all downhill from there. He hired his family to be his "advisors", in direct contravention of federal law. Cabinet picks and other appointments were not made for competence or appropriateness, or even for policy goals, but to reward cronies (something too prevalent already, but turned "up to 11" by Trump), and often in open defiance of common sense. It has escalated since. He disregards any advice that is contrary to his whims, and castigates (or fires) those who provide it - publicly. He openly flaunts his coziness with foreign adversaries and disses our allies relentlessly. He defies anything Congress wants, unless he is appropriately flattered in the process. He actively interfered with legal processes and investigations (Sessions, Comey, Mueller, Congress), and now is stonewalling everything Congress is seeking. That is the definition of lawlessness.

At least Nixon recognized he was a crook and tried to hide it. Trump simply doesn't care.

NWRatCon:

Mr. Trump, like all dictators in the making puts a much higher stock in personal bonds and loyalty of followers than in the Rule of Law. He believes in the Rule of Man and as president, he is "the man". That is why he is so dangerous to the American Republic. To him statutory law and even the US Constitution are just papers/parchment uttered by men lesser than he himself and thus can be marginalised, circumvented, ignored or defied by a great man such as he believes himself to be. In that sense he is remarkably like Mad King George.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Obama isn't President, and nothing he did (which, I note, you can't cite), comes close to the present circumstance. I know you know this, because that is why you are trying to derail the conversation.

The only derailment here is you refusing to admit the truth.

Deep state, spying on the Trump campaign, giving $150 billion to Iran for no apparent reason while trying to destroy the US coal industry, just to name a few
 
NWRatCon:

Mr. Trump, like all dictators in the making puts a much higher stock in personal bonds and loyalty of followers than in the Rule of Law. He believes in the Rule of Man and as president, he is "the man". That is why he is so dangerous to the American Republic. To him statutory law and even the US Constitution are just papers/parchment uttered by men lesser than he himself and thus can be marginalised, circumvented, ignored or defied by a great man such as he believes himself to be. In that sense he is remarkably like Mad King George.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Is Trump the one trying to change the supreme court to favor the liberals? Is he the one who is ignoring the laws at every opportunity when it does not go the liberal way? Is he the one who is constantly challenging the written law? Answer, no. That would be the democrats who continue to threaten and bully any who dare to oppose them.
 
Trump hid his many flings with prostitutes during the campaign, and paid them off towards the end of his campaign to keep them quiet (at least until after the election = fraud).

I doubt that Trump would have generated the votes that he did if Americans had been fully aware of his adulterous and *****-grabbing ways.

Outside of the liberal press saying these things, any proof?
 
The only derailment here is you refusing to admit the truth.

Deep state, spying on the Trump campaign, giving $150 billion to Iran for no apparent reason while trying to destroy the US coal industry, just to name a few

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. You abused it. Bu-bye.
 
Is Trump the one trying to change the supreme court to favor the liberals? Is he the one who is ignoring the laws at every opportunity when it does not go the liberal way? Is he the one who is constantly challenging the written law? Answer, no. That would be the democrats who continue to threaten and bully any who dare to oppose them.

Arjay81:

The US Supreme Court is stacked 5-4 with conservative judges so I don't think you can sensibly claim that liberals have been stacking it.

He has repeatedly tried to override the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 by assigning military units to border control duties and law enforcement duties in contravention to that law.

Mr. Trump is and has ignored US laws like the emoluments clause (Title of Nobility Clause) of the US Constitution. He has tried to do an end-run around the Congress's power to control the purse strings of the nation with his declaration of an emergency and his redirecting funds against the Congress's will.

Mr. Trump has launched military and unconventional warfare attacks on foreign sovereign states without Congressional approval and without formal declarations of war, such as operations in Africa, Yemen and Syria. In this one respect he is not that different from his predecessors who have also defied US law as part of the imperial presidency principle.

So, yes. Mr. Trump is exceptional in his frequency and intensity of breaking US Law.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Where as Obama denied it while performing those lies. And more and more evidence is coming forth that he broke the law numerous times.

Time to expand your outlook.

I agree with your point that Obama was just another man in office who broke the law many times, but in truth that is irrelevant to the thread topic.
 
Arjay81:

The US Supreme Court is stacked 5-4 with conservative judges so I don't think you can sensibly claim that liberals have been stacking it.

He has repeatedly tried to override the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 by assigning military units to border control duties and law enforcement duties in contravention to that law.

Mr. Trump is and has ignored US laws like the emoluments clause (Title of Nobility Clause) of the US Constitution. He has tried to do an end-run around the Congress's power to control the purse strings of the nation with his declaration of an emergency and his redirecting funds against the Congress's will.

Mr. Trump has launched military and unconventional warfare attacks on foreign sovereign states without Congressional approval and without formal declarations of war, such as operations in Africa, Yemen and Syria. In this one respect he is not that different from his predecessors who have also defied US law as part of the imperial presidency principle.

So, yes. Mr. Trump is exceptional in his frequency and intensity of breaking US Law.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

And when given a chance the democrats try to stack the court in their favor, even going so far as to suggest that the number of justices be expanded. Of course only it liberals are appointed. First of your failures.
Are you trying to say that your darling liberals never have tried to go around the constitution? Are you really that blind or are you actively just trying to cover for them? And Obama never distributed funds without congressional approval? I can think of $150 billion in cash that he sent to an enemy of this country.

Very convenient citations in which you just happen to not mention how your liberal heroes have done the same thing and much worse. Can you say selective tunnel vision?
 
I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. You abused it. Bu-bye.

That "benefit of the doubt" would require that I agree only with you and all you claim. I had hoped you would be able to openly converse without showing your prejudice on the subject. Once again, I am disappointed.
 
I agree with your point that Obama was just another man in office who broke the law many times, but in truth that is irrelevant to the thread topic.

The thread topic is a trolling message based on an assumption that is not proven or relevant.
 
Trump as POTUS has continued to operate as he did before. He's someone is used to bending or breaking anything, laws included, that gets in his way. He doesn't has the sense or decency to back off that behavior while being president. As the OP said, the GOP has been enabling all of this from the get-go.

Question : will the pendulum swing back, or are we living under an autocrat from here on whenever the POTUS and Senate are of the same party? :(
 
There are some of us that are more concerned with the impact on our processes and the rule of law than the political posture of those doing the impacting. That's the point of this thread. It just so happens, however, that the party more inclined to do so leans in one particular direction. The point, really, is that what is occurring in the current administration is unprecedented. As noted, the only administration more inclined to lawlessness was Nixon's. Is that the gold standard for probity? Can anyone seriously argue that President Trump's behavior is run-of-the-mill, that anyone else has done it? It's not that there haven't been exceptions - as I noted previously - it is that this is a constant theme, the base position of the administration, and they are being abetted in it by those who, legitimately, know better (and those that are nearly as dismissive as themselves, Mitch McConnell). THIS IS NOT NORMAL. It's not close to normal. It is aberrant behavior.
 
There are some of us that are more concerned with the impact on our processes and the rule of law than the political posture of those doing the impacting. That's the point of this thread. It just so happens, however, that the party more inclined to do so leans in one particular direction. The point, really, is that what is occurring in the current administration is unprecedented. As noted, the only administration more inclined to lawlessness was Nixon's. Is that the gold standard for probity? Can anyone seriously argue that President Trump's behavior is run-of-the-mill, that anyone else has done it? It's not that there haven't been exceptions - as I noted previously - it is that this is a constant theme, the base position of the administration, and they are being abetted in it by those who, legitimately, know better (and those that are nearly as dismissive as themselves, Mitch McConnell). THIS IS NOT NORMAL. It's not close to normal. It is aberrant behavior.

Oh, that is what I'm concerned about.

My point was that our system and electorate facilitated someone with a lifelong aversion to law and societal norms becoming POTUS, and it seems we (many) are willing to tolerate it if we think we might benefit in the short term. I had hoped that the seriousness of the position would cause Trump to ratchet things back, but that isn't what happened.
 
Yes, that was intended to be a pun.

Prior to the present, Richard Nixon was considered the paradigm of the "lawless President". He abused his position, used government agencies to do his political dirty work, engaged in various flat-out illegal activities, obstructed justice, stonewalled the work of Congress, and was, all in all, a very bad guy. He had competition, however. Of course, there are historical precedents, like Thomas Jefferson having his former VP tried for treason; Lincoln's suspension of Habeas Corpus; and FDR's internment of Japanese during WWII, that were particularly egregious. But most historians believe that Presidents, by and large, have followed the norms of their day and the legal proscriptions that apply to their office. There have been exceptions, and most of them are modern. Ronald Reagan and G.H.W. Bush probably were closest during the Iran-Contra affair; and VP Cheney's activities regarding Valerie Plame, but, again, by and large they recognized that what they were doing in that affair was the exception, and conducted themselves largely within the confines of the law and constitutional norms.

Donald Trump is both quantitatively and qualitatively different. And it's not just "criminality" that I'm talking about here (although there is plenty of that), it is the attitude that "the law" simply doesn't apply to him, or anything he does. It started during his campaign, but has never abated. Accepting assistance from foreign interests; his refusal to release his tax returns was a sign (not a legal requirement, and Mitt Romney tried to do it too) of his indifference to precedent or norms. It is not so much that he did it, but why he does it that is germane.

But it wasn't until he occupied the office that most people realized that his indifference to norms extended to both the law and the Constitution. (The abetting by his party may be a separate thread topic.) The first clue was his refusal to divest from private interests that conflict with his duties as President - and it has been all downhill from there. He hired his family to be his "advisors", in direct contravention of federal law. Cabinet picks and other appointments were not made for competence or appropriateness, or even for policy goals, but to reward cronies (something too prevalent already, but turned "up to 11" by Trump), and often in open defiance of common sense. It has escalated since. He disregards any advice that is contrary to his whims, and castigates (or fires) those who provide it - publicly. He openly flaunts his coziness with foreign adversaries and disses our allies relentlessly. He defies anything Congress wants, unless he is appropriately flattered in the process. He actively interfered with legal processes and investigations (Sessions, Comey, Mueller, Congress), and now is stonewalling everything Congress is seeking. That is the definition of lawlessness.

At least Nixon recognized he was a crook and tried to hide it. Trump simply doesn't care.

I am pretty sure that Trump is the worst human being ever to have lived... he is worse than Hitler, Stalin and Satan combined.
 
There are some of us that are more concerned with the impact on our processes and the rule of law than the political posture of those doing the impacting. That's the point of this thread. It just so happens, however, that the party more inclined to do so leans in one particular direction. The point, really, is that what is occurring in the current administration is unprecedented. As noted, the only administration more inclined to lawlessness was Nixon's. Is that the gold standard for probity? Can anyone seriously argue that President Trump's behavior is run-of-the-mill, that anyone else has done it? It's not that there haven't been exceptions - as I noted previously - it is that this is a constant theme, the base position of the administration, and they are being abetted in it by those who, legitimately, know better (and those that are nearly as dismissive as themselves, Mitch McConnell). THIS IS NOT NORMAL. It's not close to normal. It is aberrant behavior.

Any person that thinks that Trump is not the worst person in human history is a White Nationalist... that is how aberrant their behavior is.
 
Any person that thinks that Trump is not the worst person in human history is a White Nationalist... that is how aberrant their behavior is.



You might be a racist too.
 
The thread topic is a trolling message based on an assumption that is not proven or relevant.

Proof and relevance is IRRELEVANT, my man! We are talking about Trump. The worst person in history...
 
I am pretty sure that Trump is the worst human being ever to have lived... he is worse than Hitler, Stalin and Satan combined.


Good grief man. Get ahold of yourself.
 
At least the OPer thinks the pictures of JFK should be removed for having his brother be AG. Obviously JFK was THE MOST CORRUPT president ever.
 
Proof and relevance is IRRELEVANT, my man! We are talking about Trump. The worst person in history...

Providing proof to the relevant statement that you are so hate filled that you cannot admit any fact that runs contrary to your hate.
 
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