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Video shows deputy punch theft suspect: 'You haven't seen excessive force yet'

I've been punched by officers, smacked, had a knee to the back, billy clubbed, had the inside of the patrol car itself used as a means of beating me up by driving and suddenly turning at a high rate of speed while I was handcuffed but NOT belted in.
I'll even admit that the three or four times these things were done to me, I had it coming.

But what I just saw buggers all sensibilities to widdershins, and makes what happened to me in the 1970's tame by comparison.
 
lwf said:
Anyone with the power to strip a citizen of rights should be held to a much higher standard and require a much greater amount of oversight than any other citizen. They should also receive the training necessary to meet those standards. That said: When law enforcement officers abuse their power on the job I tend to lean more on the side of summarily ending their career in law enforcement as opposed to imprisoning them, unless the abuse is particularly egregious. Putting a known police officer in prison is a particularly cruel punishment, and should be reserved only for particularly nasty abuses of power.
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I take it you agree that changes will not occur until city/county/States effect in some cases, drastic change.
That change will be very slow. The problem changes faces resides with Politicians & society, those Politicians at all levels, local, State,Federal many are not interested in addressing those issues
 
WillyPete said:
What's the correct thing to do with a detainee that won't cooperate? Honest question.
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Those restraints always worked when I was locked up.
 
Winston said:
Those restraints always worked when I was locked up.
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Yeah but we know some other people ain't got no damn sense.
Don't fight the police, once they gotcha, they gotcha.
But still, if they gotcha...there is no need for that nonsense that I just saw.
 
If one is not a cop, one should be very cautious in criticizing a cop who has to deal with an extremely "uncooperative" citizen.

We all know that Minnesota is a politically correct state.

If this incident had occurred in some other state, the cop might not have been charged.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Yeah but we know some other people ain't got no damn sense.
Don't fight the police, once they gotcha, they gotcha.
But still, if they gotcha...there is no need for that nonsense that I just saw.
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usually they always had a couple big guys on shift who could handle anyone. submissive moves and then put them in restraints until they calm down.

also, i was only ever locked up for probation violations on non-violent drug offenses. just wanted to clear that up.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Yeah but we know some other people ain't got no damn sense.
Don't fight the police, once they gotcha, they gotcha.
But still, if they gotcha...there is no need for that nonsense that I just saw.
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The guy in the video very much behaves like someone whos been tortured by them and thinks he gonna die. He even pleads with a full sob "PLEASE DONT KILL ME!" after it seems someone behind him might be choking him or covering his mouth. Its like the guy punching him wants him to squirm just so he can do those full "legal power-bombs" to him while hes already mostly restrained.

Like Eric Garner try being choked to death and u feel ur brain getting fuzzy and ur passing out and see if u struggle or not as ur dying. Wiggling back and forth while ur being beaten and probably beaten before the camera was even turned on is definitely resisting.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
The guy in the video very much behaves like someone whos been tortured by them and thinks he gonna die. He even pleads with a full sob "PLEASE DONT KILL ME!" after it seems someone behind him might be choking him or covering his mouth. Its like the guy punching him wants him to squirm just so he can do those full "legal power-bombs" to him while hes already mostly restrained.

Like Eric Garner try being choked to death and u feel ur brain getting fuzzy and ur passing out and see if u struggle or not as ur dying. Wiggling back and forth while ur being beaten and probably beaten before the camera was even turned on is definitely resisting.
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This goes to the heart of the problem. I have no problem believing that the situation started with the restrained prisoner legitimately resisting the officers, but a violent response by police officers in an effort to get him to "stop resisting" is nothing but escalation. Punches, kicks, and knees do absolutely nothing to stop resistance, and should only ever be used in legitimate self-defense scenarios. When the victim is restrained, this behavior is useful only to the officers to provide a quasi-legal outlet to vent their own terror and anger. Beating a restrained but resisting suspect who doesn't pose an actual physical threat is like a parent screaming at a frightened child to "quit crying." It speaks to the incompetence of the officer and if this is how they are trained, it shows the ineffectiveness of law enforcement training.
 
Winston said:
usually they always had a couple big guys on shift who could handle anyone. submissive moves and then put them in restraints until they calm down.

also, i was only ever locked up for probation violations on non-violent drug offenses. just wanted to clear that up.
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Me: warrants on unpaid tickets, 1 disorderly conduct charge, low level nonsense like that...the Minneapolis 3rd Precinct was tought to be a pretty rough bunch forty some years ago, a leftover from having to deal with actual out and out gangsters, but I guess it pales in comparison to what I am seeing these days.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
The guy in the video very much behaves like someone whos been tortured by them and thinks he gonna die. He even pleads with a full sob "PLEASE DONT KILL ME!" after it seems someone behind him might be choking him or covering his mouth. Its like the guy punching him wants him to squirm just so he can do those full "legal power-bombs" to him while hes already mostly restrained.

Like Eric Garner try being choked to death and u feel ur brain getting fuzzy and ur passing out and see if u struggle or not as ur dying. Wiggling back and forth while ur being beaten and probably beaten before the camera was even turned on is definitely resisting.
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Well, in the past I've seen dirty cops use the tactic of yelling "Stop resisting!!" over and over again as cover for all kinds of mischief on restrained persons. I guess if you yell it often enough and loud enough it works on some judges and juries.
 
If you intend to commit crime, make sure you become a cop first.
 
Chomsky said:
How the hell is that Disorderly Conduct?
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The same way that shooting a fleeing black man in the back is a regrettable but unavoidable incident, etc. There are three criminal jus.....criminal court systems:

1. For police, prosecutors, judges.

2. For the rich.

3. For the poor.
 
Mr Person said:
The same way that shooting a fleeing black man in the back is a regrettable but unavoidable incident, etc. There are three criminal jus.....criminal court systems:

1. For police, prosecutors, judges.

2. For the rich.

3. For the poor.
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I always heard that PD (public defender) stands for "Prison Destined".
 
Chomsky said:
I always heard that PD (public defender) stands for "Prison Destined".
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In most states, yes. People want to think of America as this wonderful free country, but don't want to pay what is required for it to be just that for everyone. Public defense expenditures should be increased greatly.

It's bad enough that the pay is so much worse than in the private sector, but monstrous that most defenders are saddled with so many cases they can't possibly do a competent job. They're just winging it as best they can.
 
Mr Person said:
In most states, yes. People want to think of America as this wonderful free country, but don't want to pay what is required for it to be just that for everyone. Public defense expenditures should be increased greatly.

It's bad enough that the pay is so much worse than in the private sector, but monstrous that most defenders are saddled with so many cases they can't possibly do a competent job. They're just winging it as best they can.
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I do know someone that claims they got a very good defense from a PD, which surprised me. In fact, I was a bit surprised at the sentence being quite a bit easier than I expected given the circumstances.

But it was an extremely serious offense involving a loss of life, and I suspect due to that the PD office assigned one of their better counsels.

It also was an example of how reckless and careless disregard, induced by passion and intoxicants, can lead to poor decision making that can change a young adult's life (and those around them) forever! It was a very sad story, on both sides of the courtroom that day.
 
Chomsky said:
I do know someone that claims they got a very good defense from a PD, which surprised me. In fact, I was a bit surprised at the sentence being quite a bit easier than I expected given the circumstances.

But it was an extremely serious offense involving a loss of life, and I suspect due to that the PD office assigned one of their better counsels.

It also was an example of how reckless and careless disregard, induced by passion and intoxicants, can lead to poor decision making that can change a young adult's life (and those around them) forever! It was a very sad story, on both sides of the courtroom that day.
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It really depends. MA does pretty well by PDs, whether officially a public defender (in "CPCS", the independent agency) or whether they take appointed cases like me. Granted, we don't get paid well. But we at least have room to do a good job.

I like to think I do a very good job with my appeals and post-conviction stuff. But then, I wouldn't be able to if I was under the constraints many states place. I stare in disbelief at the screen whenever I see an article that describes the average hours per cases some PDs have in some of these states. It's barely enough time to a decent motion to suppress and maybe look at the discovery quickly before trial (not that many cases go to trial). It's unbelievable.



Of course, it might help if we stopped overpolicing and also stopped treating so many low-level crimes as crimes. Why can't a "disorderly conduct" charge be turned into something you get a ticket for? Why can't we just decriminalize all personal use drug possession cases? There are so many little things that clog up the system, ruining it for everyone.
 
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Mr Person said:
It really depends. MA does pretty well by PDs, whether officially a public defender (in "CPCS", the independent agency) or whether they take appointed cases like me. Granted, we don't get paid well. But we at least have room to do a good job.

I like to think I do a very good job with my appeals and post-conviction stuff. But then, I wouldn't be able to if I was under the constraints many states place. I stare in disbelief at the screen whenever I see an article that describes the average hours per cases some PDs have in some of these states. It's barely enough time to a decent motion to suppress and maybe look at the discovery quickly before trial (not that many cases go to trial). It's unbelievable.



Of course, it might help if we stopped overpolicing and also stopped treating so many low-level crimes as crimes. Why can't a "disorderly conduct" charge be turned into something you get a ticket for? Why can't we just decriminalize all personal use drug possession cases? There are so many little things that clog up the system, ruining it for everyone.
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I hope my comment on PDs was not taken as personally disparaging to yourself, because I am essentially indicting the system rather than the individuals.

And yes, your 2nd (middle) paragraph is exactly the impetus of my earlier "prison destined" mnemonic.

In fact, my frame of reference is indeed the poster child for all you mentioned; it was the largest court system in the world - until recently. The system I'm speaking of literally has all the problems you mentioned in spades, plus many more too. It is well known within the jurisdiction to not use a PD at all costs.
 
WillyPete said:
I could see that working, perhaps you're correct, though that amounts to man-hours drained from police resources, and a rescheduled transport.

Having been rewarded for his efforts, why wouldn't he just do it all over again after his nap?
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All I know is cops every day, all around the country, manage to handle such situations without resorting to what this cop did.
 
Chomsky said:
I hope my comment on PDs was not taken as personally disparaging to yourself, because I am essentially indicting the system rather than the individuals.

And yes, your 2nd (middle) paragraph is exactly the impetus of my earlier "prison destined" mnemonic.

In fact, my frame of reference is indeed the poster child for all you mentioned; it was the largest court system in the world - until recently. The system I'm speaking of literally has all the problems you mentioned in spades, plus many more too. It is well known within the jurisdiction to not use a PD at all costs.
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No worries.

I wouldn't be able to do a good job if I lived in most states. The articles I've read really are appalling, especially so at the trial level.



For example, there was this complicated SCOTUS case a few years back. I think it came out of Alabama. It was a murder case. The entirety of someone's life is on the line. The appointed defender:

- had no experience in criminal trials
- Was only allowed to bill $1,000. At 50 an hour that would be only 20 hours.


I can tell you that 20 hours will barely get you through the first full banker's box of discovery, and even then you aren't at the stage of assimilating it all in a cohesive picture. You're just trying to make a record of what's where so you can later pick the best prep strategy. I can't imagine that.

And on an appeal? 20 hours isn't enough to do a thorough read of the transcripts of most trials along with intermittent research to do issue spotting. 20 hours isn't even enough to bull**** an appeal. Hell, I've got oral argument tomorrow and today is 12h of prep.....for 15m of court time. I have to condense and memorize a snappy argument, then anticipate all likely questions, and keep memorizing until I'm able to jump from any point to any point in the argument, and to know every single relevant fact. I just spent the last hour tracing down a potential problem that occurred to me (and isn't a problem now, since I thankfully came up with a quick answer for the issue)

Truth be told, I usually don't bill for all my prep time since I think I tend to spend more on prep than other appointed attorneys. Yes, it's ultimately for the defendant, but it's also a point of personal pride. ie, I spent 14h on it yesterday, but that was also because I had a nasty cold this week - finally better today - and could still barely think straight yesterday. For some reason, even a basic cold wipes out my mental capacity. I can run, I can lift, but I can't think.


Back when I was at a firm, we usually did appeals. But we did do a murder trial. It took at least a year of intermittent research, investigation, retaining experts, etc. The attorneys actually appearing in court spent about a month of pretty intenstive prep. Trial took almost a month. The trial attorneys were in court 8h a day. The lead then prepped a good 6-8h/night. Another attorney and associate were on call until about 2am every day to deal with emergency research and motions for stuff that came up. It's a tremendous amount of work if you're going to do it properly.
 
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It seems like some used his excessive power, this police surely has an attitude problem.
 
TheParser said:
If one is not a cop, one should be very cautious in criticizing a cop who has to deal with an extremely "uncooperative" citizen.

We all know that Minnesota is a politically correct state.

If this incident had occurred in some other state, the cop might not have been charged.
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And that's a load of bullcrap, too. You don't know the first damn thing about Minnesota.
It's been a red state, a blue state, then a red state, a purple state, and all points in between.

But ya go up North, it's a red state for sure, you betcha, and it always has been, dontcha know.

giphy.gif


But even as red as it is up there, there's just a wee bit of that Canadian "help a brother out" attitude which is common to all of the Gopher State.
Faribault, Owatonna and Albert Lea are all pretty red too, and they're down South by Rochester.
Mankato? Ahhh ya, pretty red down there, too.

Minnesota's a mixed bag, and it always has been.
 
Mr Person said:
Of course, it might help if we stopped overpolicing and also stopped treating so many low-level crimes as crimes. Why can't a "disorderly conduct" charge be turned into something you get a ticket for? Why can't we just decriminalize all personal use drug possession cases? There are so many little things that clog up the system, ruining it for everyone.
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"Those empty private corrections beds aren't gonna fill themselves, son." ;)

More and more, the prison system is becoming the "prison-industrial complex" and as other jobs disappear, there's more pressure for something to fill the gap and private corrections is becoming the band-aid.
It is thought by some pols to be the ideal fix-it for any state or county with a dried up revenue base, just build a warehouse for people and send in the 15 dollar an hour screws.

Incarcerating people is a growth industry now! It's a jobs program!
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Video shows deputy punch theft suspect: '''You haven'''t seen excessive force yet''' [Video]




I wonder when we are going to pass laws stating that any cop found abusing someone in custody with near lethal strikes = life in prison

This one's pretty brutal man he did full power steroid drop knees into a guy sitting in a restraining chair... much much much more brutal than any MMA hit I've ever seen.

We need to start looking any cops found out as criminals away for life.
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Tough one... the guy was definitely resisting. That is never a good start. BUT... the asshole cop that knees him then punches him (not MMA style... and you need to watch more UFC if you think that was hard hitting) is not the real problem... the real problem was the pushing him over so that he was having trouble breathing. That is the scary and truly abusive ****.
 
Mr Person said:
No worries.

I wouldn't be able to do a good job if I lived in most states. The articles I've read really are appalling, especially so at the trial level.



For example, there was this complicated SCOTUS case a few years back. I think it came out of Alabama. It was a murder case. The entirety of someone's life is on the line. The appointed defender:

- had no experience in criminal trials
- Was only allowed to bill $1,000. At 50 an hour that would be only 20 hours.


I can tell you that 20 hours will barely get you through the first full banker's box of discovery, and even then you aren't at the stage of assimilating it all in a cohesive picture. You're just trying to make a record of what's where so you can later pick the best prep strategy. I can't imagine that.

And on an appeal? 20 hours isn't enough to do a thorough read of the transcripts of most trials along with intermittent research to do issue spotting. 20 hours isn't even enough to bull**** an appeal. Hell, I've got oral argument tomorrow and today is 12h of prep.....for 15m of court time. I have to condense and memorize a snappy argument, then anticipate all likely questions, and keep memorizing until I'm able to jump from any point to any point in the argument, and to know every single relevant fact. I just spent the last hour tracing down a potential problem that occurred to me (and isn't a problem now, since I thankfully came up with a quick answer for the issue)

Truth be told, I usually don't bill for all my prep time since I think I tend to spend more on prep than other appointed attorneys. Yes, it's ultimately for the defendant, but it's also a point of personal pride. ie, I spent 14h on it yesterday, but that was also because I had a nasty cold this week - finally better today - and could still barely think straight yesterday. For some reason, even a basic cold wipes out my mental capacity. I can run, I can lift, but I can't think.


Back when I was at a firm, we usually did appeals. But we did do a murder trial. It took at least a year of intermittent research, investigation, retaining experts, etc. The attorneys actually appearing in court spent about a month of pretty intenstive prep. Trial took almost a month. The trial attorneys were in court 8h a day. The lead then prepped a good 6-8h/night. Another attorney and associate were on call until about 2am every day to deal with emergency research and motions for stuff that came up. It's a tremendous amount of work if you're going to do it properly.
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Thanks for taking the time to describe what it's like on the inside, Mr. Person. It's interesting stuff!
 
WillyPete said:
What's the correct thing to do with a detainee that won't cooperate? Honest question.
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The guy was handcuffed... walk away and let him freak out on the ground. Or better yet, have a detention cell for guys like this right there next to the car garage. Put him in and walk away... they need to do the same thing with car chases many times...
 
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