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Is it always illegal to lie to FBI?

Skeptic Bob

Skeptic Bob

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While the Kavanaugh case made me think of this it is not about that case specifically. Everyone keeps saying it is illegal to lie to the FBI. That is certainly true in some cases but I wonder how far it goes.

Obviously if you lie to an FBI agent who is conducting a criminal investigation that is illegal.

But what about when they are just doing a background check?

I can see many people, including me, make the argument that it is illegal to lie to an FBI agent conducting official business.

So what about this. Let’s say at an FBI regional office one of the FBI agents asks one of the IT techs if he has gotten around to updating the agent’s computer software. Or asks a secretary if they faxed some documents the agent requested faxing. These are questions asked while the agent is conducting official business. If the IT tech and the secretary told the agent “yes”, when in fact they hadn’t done it yet, would the IT tech and secretary be in violation of federal law?
 
Skeptic Bob said:
While the Kavanaugh case made me think of this it is not about that case specifically. Everyone keeps saying it is illegal to lie to the FBI. That is certainly true in some cases but I wonder how far it goes.

Obviously if you lie to an FBI agent who is conducting a criminal investigation that is illegal.

But what about when they are just doing a background check?

I can see many people, including me, make the argument that it is illegal to lie to an FBI agent conducting official business.

So what about this. Let’s say at an FBI regional office one of the FBI agents asks one of the IT techs if he has gotten around to updating the agent’s computer software. Or asks a secretary if they faxed some documents the agent requested faxing. These are questions asked while the agent is conducting official business. If the IT tech and the secretary told the agent “yes”, when in fact they hadn’t done it yet, would the IT tech and secretary be in violation of federal law?
Click to expand...

Far worse to lie to a Senate Committee where you are sworn in, very bad idea.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
While the Kavanaugh case made me think of this it is not about that case specifically. Everyone keeps saying it is illegal to lie to the FBI. That is certainly true in some cases but I wonder how far it goes.

Obviously if you lie to an FBI agent who is conducting a criminal investigation that is illegal.

But what about when they are just doing a background check?

I can see many people, including me, make the argument that it is illegal to lie to an FBI agent conducting official business.

So what about this. Let’s say at an FBI regional office one of the FBI agents asks one of the IT techs if he has gotten around to updating the agent’s computer software. Or asks a secretary if they faxed some documents the agent requested faxing. These are questions asked while the agent is conducting official business. If the IT tech and the secretary told the agent “yes”, when in fact they hadn’t done it yet, would the IT tech and secretary be in violation of federal law?
Click to expand...


Dunno...but it sure would make for interesting performance reviews if that was the case...hehe...
 
Heheh. I don't think so. But it's always good to ask, I mean, many of our standards of use of laws and process were considered normal and good, but all it takes is one bad actor to come in and not observe such responsible use of the law, to screw everything up.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1001
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully—
(1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact

I think the key here is with regards to a matter within the jurisdiction. Material may also be relevant. And then they have to decide if they can prove it, and if it's worth pursuing.
So is the software update a matter within the jurisdiction? The fax? I don't see how. If the secretary were willfully trying to throw an investigation, sure, but if she was just getting the boss off her back..not so much.

It's rare that people are prosecuted for perjury, so combine all of that and I think the secretary and IT guy...while they may lose their job, are OK legally.

Thus prosecutions for perjury have been quite rare and courts have generally been reluctant to enforce section 1001.
Click to expand...
Should lying to the FBI be a crime?
 
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Skeptic Bob said:
While the Kavanaugh case made me think of this it is not about that case specifically. Everyone keeps saying it is illegal to lie to the FBI. That is certainly true in some cases but I wonder how far it goes.

Obviously if you lie to an FBI agent who is conducting a criminal investigation that is illegal.

But what about when they are just doing a background check?

I can see many people, including me, make the argument that it is illegal to lie to an FBI agent conducting official business.

So what about this. Let’s say at an FBI regional office one of the FBI agents asks one of the IT techs if he has gotten around to updating the agent’s computer software. Or asks a secretary if they faxed some documents the agent requested faxing. These are questions asked while the agent is conducting official business. If the IT tech and the secretary told the agent “yes”, when in fact they hadn’t done it yet, would the IT tech and secretary be in violation of federal law?
Click to expand...
Skeptic Bob:

Why lie? Just refuse to answer investigators' questions until they provide you with reasonable grounds for conducting their investigation. If the background check is being conducted on you, then inform investigators that it is their job to investigate your background but that you have no obligation to cooperate with their investigation and essentially do their job for them. Refusing to answer questions is your right and you are not obliged to cooperate with background checkers. If the check is for a job and your failure to cooperate with investigators is cited as the grounds for not hiring you, then sue the potential employer for discrimination arguing that they have no right to refuse you a job based on you requiring others to do their own jobs without your aid.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Well, chances are they're not asking you about things to shoot the breeze and that their questions are related to an investigation. And lies in regard to an ongoing investigation tend to end up being obstruction of justice or somesuch.


A background check? Errmmm...maybe? Probably? The real answer is always "it depends..."
 
Skeptic Bob said:
While the Kavanaugh case made me think of this it is not about that case specifically. Everyone keeps saying it is illegal to lie to the FBI. That is certainly true in some cases but I wonder how far it goes.

Obviously if you lie to an FBI agent who is conducting a criminal investigation that is illegal.

But what about when they are just doing a background check?

I can see many people, including me, make the argument that it is illegal to lie to an FBI agent conducting official business.

So what about this. Let’s say at an FBI regional office one of the FBI agents asks one of the IT techs if he has gotten around to updating the agent’s computer software. Or asks a secretary if they faxed some documents the agent requested faxing. These are questions asked while the agent is conducting official business. If the IT tech and the secretary told the agent “yes”, when in fact they hadn’t done it yet, would the IT tech and secretary be in violation of federal law?
Click to expand...

There is a difference between deliberately not telling the truth and a persons recollection of an event.

Person A : victim was shot in the back by the accused.
Person B: victim was shot in the front/side by the accused.
Medical report states victim was shot in the front right side.

Now did Person A not tell the truth or lie. Person A may have stated what they believe happened. Person A may also have lied. If they lied then evidence needs to be provided that Person A knew what they were stating a lie.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
While the Kavanaugh case made me think of this it is not about that case specifically. Everyone keeps saying it is illegal to lie to the FBI. That is certainly true in some cases but I wonder how far it goes.

Obviously if you lie to an FBI agent who is conducting a criminal investigation that is illegal.

But what about when they are just doing a background check?

I can see many people, including me, make the argument that it is illegal to lie to an FBI agent conducting official business.

So what about this. Let’s say at an FBI regional office one of the FBI agents asks one of the IT techs if he has gotten around to updating the agent’s computer software. Or asks a secretary if they faxed some documents the agent requested faxing. These are questions asked while the agent is conducting official business. If the IT tech and the secretary told the agent “yes”, when in fact they hadn’t done it yet, would the IT tech and secretary be in violation of federal law?
Click to expand...

Ask Martha Stewart, she knows what happens when someone lies to the FBI
 
Skeptic Bob said:
While the Kavanaugh case made me think of this it is not about that case specifically. Everyone keeps saying it is illegal to lie to the FBI. That is certainly true in some cases but I wonder how far it goes.

Obviously if you lie to an FBI agent who is conducting a criminal investigation that is illegal.

But what about when they are just doing a background check?

I can see many people, including me, make the argument that it is illegal to lie to an FBI agent conducting official business.

So what about this. Let’s say at an FBI regional office one of the FBI agents asks one of the IT techs if he has gotten around to updating the agent’s computer software. Or asks a secretary if they faxed some documents the agent requested faxing. These are questions asked while the agent is conducting official business. If the IT tech and the secretary told the agent “yes”, when in fact they hadn’t done it yet, would the IT tech and secretary be in violation of federal law?
Click to expand...

While not looking it up, Ill go out on a limb and assume that there is a clear distinction between duties of an agent. Lying to an FBI agent being illegal, must be under certain conditions I would assume. One of those conditions would be if the IT tech did so maliciously or not. Or if said IT tech had an agreement. Still unless it was some grand conspiracy I could not imagine anything more than firing the tech.
 
HumblePi said:
Ask Martha Stewart, she knows what happens when someone lies to the FBI
Click to expand...

Or, ask William Brennan or James Clapper. They perjured themselves in Congress and nobody in the federal government, including the FBI, lifted a finger.

Martha Stewart fibbed and James Comey prosecuted her and sent her to prison.

There are 2 standards, making a mockery of the claim that we have a government of laws.
 
Thoreau72 said:
Or, ask William Brennan or James Clapper. They perjured themselves in Congress and nobody in the federal government, including the FBI, lifted a finger.

Martha Stewart fibbed and James Comey prosecuted her and sent her to prison.

There are 2 standards, making a mockery of the claim that we have a government of laws.
Click to expand...

One needs proof to prosecute.
 
HumblePi said:
One needs proof to prosecute.
Click to expand...

And one needs to honor one's oath of office. That is needed more than proof, it seems. The proof of Clapper's, Brennan's and Kavanaugh's lies are ample, recorded on TV and in letters made public.

What is absent is moral high ground by those who have sworn to protect and defend the Constitution. They have forsaken the rule of law, and that makes them ordinary politicians and bureaucrats.
 
HumblePi said:
One needs proof to prosecute.
Click to expand...

And one needs to honor one's oath of office. That is needed more than proof, it seems. The proof of Clapper's, Brennan's and Kavanaugh's lies are ample, recorded on TV and in letters made public.

What is absent is moral high ground by those who have sworn to protect and defend the Constitution. They have forsaken the rule of law, and that makes them ordinary politicians and bureaucrats.
 
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