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Reducing Prison Costs And Populations

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DebateChallenge

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Incarcerating criminals is expensive. From what I understand it costs roughly 60K a year per inmate to run a prison and there are currently about 2.5 million inmates incarcerated in the USA. If you do the math you will see just how big a chunk its taking out of our tax dollars. Any ideas for reducing the costs of running prisons? We obviously can't turn the inmates loose but Im interested in hearing ideas, and I've got some ideas of my own.
 
Kill off the so called "War on Drugs," and roughly half the problem disappears overnight giving us far more room to house those that really need to be in prison.
 
DebateChallenge said:
Incarcerating criminals is expensive. From what I understand it costs roughly 60K a year per inmate to run a prison and there are currently about 2.5 million inmates incarcerated in the USA. If you do the math you will see just how big a chunk its taking out of our tax dollars. Any ideas for reducing the costs of running prisons? We obviously can't turn the inmates loose but Im interested in hearing ideas, and I've got some ideas of my own.
Click to expand...

Make more use of work release programs for non-violent offenders taking cell rent and victim restitution out of their earnings.
 
OrphanSlug said:
Kill off the so called "War on Drugs," and roughly half the problem disappears overnight giving us far more room to house those that really need to be in prison.
Click to expand...

Yep ... a lot of 'em should never have warehoused in the prisons to begin with.

So, yes, a lot could be carefully released. I say carefully, since many have been damaged by being tossed into the hole when there were more constructive ways of dealing with the minimal threat they previously presented. But still very many could be reunited with their families and reintegrated into the community and turned into tax payers.
 
OrphanSlug said:
Kill off the so called "War on Drugs," and roughly half the problem disappears overnight giving us far more room to house those that really need to be in prison.
Click to expand...

I am in favor of decriminalizing marijuana and dont believe people should be put in prison SOLELY for drug use. The reality though is...that they are not. Those in prison on drug related offenses are in the vast majority there due to distribution/sales, or the commission of a criminal act while on drugs. Possession sentencing laws vary, depending on amount held for personal use vs amount held that meets criteria for intent to distribute. The type of drugs held is also relevant. Marijuana possession sentences are usually minimal, seldonw reaching prison (most end in county jails of there is a sentence called for), while heroin and cocaine and meth tend to merit much higher sentences.

Just saying "end the drug war" is not the prison panacea people think it will be.
 
VanceMack said:
I am in favor of decriminalizing marijuana and dont believe people should be put in prison SOLELY for drug use. The reality though is...that they are not. Those in prison on drug related offenses are in the vast majority there due to distribution/sales, or the commission of a criminal act while on drugs. Possession sentencing laws vary, depending on amount held for personal use vs amount held that meets criteria for intent to distribute. The type of drugs held is also relevant. Marijuana possession sentences are usually minimal, seldonw reaching prison (most end in county jails of there is a sentence called for), while heroin and cocaine and meth tend to merit much higher sentences.

Just saying "end the drug war" is not the prison panacea people think it will be.
Click to expand...

If it is legal, then distribution and sales would be largely be decriminalized as well. I say largely because there will likely be regulations for it just as there is for alcohol or tobacco but it likely wouldn't be a prison sentence for violating those but rather a fine.

You also have to think about the cultural impact it would likely have as it would essentially bankrupt gangs as they are largely financed through the illegal drug trade. This could have a tremendous impact on making it harder to recruit younger individuals as there is no longer the financial incentive of making money through the drug trade. So not only would it save on prisons, but likely prevent many from engaging in criminal behavior altogether and save lives in the process.
 
Nap said:
If it is legal, then distribution and sales would be largely be decriminalized as well. I say largely because there will likely be regulations for it just as there is for alcohol or tobacco but it likely wouldn't be a prison sentence for violating those but rather a fine.

You also have to think about the cultural impact it would likely have as it would essentially bankrupt gangs as they are largely financed through the illegal drug trade. This could have a tremendous impact on making it harder to recruit younger individuals as there is no longer the financial incentive of making money through the drug trade. So not only would it save on prisons, but likely prevent many from engaging in criminal behavior altogether and save lives in the process.
Click to expand...
Not so. Even in places like California and Colorado were it essentially legal, they have seen an INCREASE in black market distribution of marijuana and illegal growing. And you dont REALLY want to see ALL drugs decriminalized, do you?
 
VanceMack said:
Not so. Even in places like California and Colorado were it essentially legal, they have seen an INCREASE in black market distribution of marijuana and illegal growing. And you dont REALLY want to see ALL drugs decriminalized, do you?
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It shouldn't be illegal to grow it in the first place........

As for the second question, yes. Prohibition doesn't work and simply creates more problems than it is worth. Drugs would be far safer and less easily accessible for underage individuals if able to legally obtain them.
 
Nap said:
It shouldn't be illegal to grow it in the first place........

As for the second question, yes. Prohibition doesn't work and simply creates more problems than it is worth. Drugs would be far safer and less easily accessible for underage individuals if able to legally obtain them.
Click to expand...

Yeah...I dont know if you really fathom the long term consequences of making drugs like Meth and heroin legal and easily available.
 
VanceMack said:
I am in favor of decriminalizing marijuana and dont believe people should be put in prison SOLELY for drug use. The reality though is...that they are not. Those in prison on drug related offenses are in the vast majority there due to distribution/sales, or the commission of a criminal act while on drugs. Possession sentencing laws vary, depending on amount held for personal use vs amount held that meets criteria for intent to distribute. The type of drugs held is also relevant. Marijuana possession sentences are usually minimal, seldonw reaching prison (most end in county jails of there is a sentence called for), while heroin and cocaine and meth tend to merit much higher sentences.

Just saying "end the drug war" is not the prison panacea people think it will be.
Click to expand...

What I will stipulate is the stats on this, and how they are cut up, are all over the place on this. By government stats alone decriminalizing drugs and releasing possession and distribution charges only would put us somewhere in the 25% to 35% range, if we separate out federal from state (and local) we seem to end up somewhere in the 15% to 25% range.

When I rather whimsically said "half the problem" what I am referring to is the socioeconomic impact of what the "War on Drugs" has done to this nation.

What that really means is the development of a subculture (for lack of a better way to put it) within society that ends up branded with several lifelong consequences from being in some phase of the criminal justice system, a very long way of saying we send way too many people down an economic and/or racial disproportionate path with few possibilities of return. Any sociologist or criminologist will talk about likely behavior once someone goes into that life and the likely behavior once part of the prison system. Since we've started this mess we've had an almost 400% increase in our Prison population and it is a bit asinine to divorce Drug related crimes from all others on the assumption they are divorced out there in this subculture I am talking about.

I would agree on the surface that the numbers when applied purely to charge and sentence skews the results, but it also makes us ask what criminal motivations are reduced when we take away the realized results of this so called War on Drugs.

We have spent roughly 50 years on this effort and the results are staggering. Before we were not even in the top 20 among comparable nations in incarceration rate, we now lead the planet in this area dwarfing nations including Cuba, Russian, China, Iran, Turkey... everyone. Arrests for Drug related crimes has almost tripled (even if they all did not end up with some lengthy sentence in a federal prison somewhere.) We are in the $Billions per year dealing with the costs of fighting the war, prosecution of those caught, and ultimately housing those found guilty.

When someone asks how to reduce prison costs and populations, the answer is looking to what failed society.

The War on Drugs did not make us safer, did not reduce crime overall, did not reduce drug demand (usage,) and did not improve our society. If anything, it took a portion of the nation and made them targets and by most measure removed them from mainstream society.

What we know as a War on Drugs was really a targeted war on certain people. It took those without much means, disproportionately included minorities in that group, and criminalized them to the point of creating this subculture. We know now that certain communities are targeted, and that reflects in the results. The AMA will tell us that economics impacts drug use far more than race, yet minorities are 3 to 4 times more likely to be policed and arrested for a drug related crime. Well over 60% of the prison population are minorities, and it is worse when considering drug related crimes.

Ultimately my point is sociology tells us ending the War on Drugs solves other issues, because it addresses a fault in thinking almost 50 years old producing no measurable success other than removing a significant percentage of the minority population from mainstream participation.
 
DebateChallenge said:
Incarcerating criminals is expensive. From what I understand it costs roughly 60K a year per inmate to run a prison and there are currently about 2.5 million inmates incarcerated in the USA. If you do the math you will see just how big a chunk its taking out of our tax dollars. Any ideas for reducing the costs of running prisons? We obviously can't turn the inmates loose but Im interested in hearing ideas, and I've got some ideas of my own.
Click to expand...

One of the bigger problems is not in the prison itself but is public attitude of treat criminals harshly. A lock them up, give no thought to rehabilitation and allow the prisons to become breeding centres for mob recruitment. Recidivism is the greater problem not the laws that get people there in the first place. The way the system is set up now we might as well just put revolving doors at the entrance.

To fix that we need do more than think nothing needs to be done but lock them in a cage for a few years and then throw them back out on the street. More emphasis has to be put on breaking the cycle. Such things as drug rehabilitation courses, controlling violence and abuse courses and giving them skills that can get them employment when they leave is what is needed.
 
VanceMack said:
I am in favor of decriminalizing marijuana and dont believe people should be put in prison SOLELY for drug use. The reality though is...that they are not. Those in prison on drug related offenses are in the vast majority there due to distribution/sales, or the commission of a criminal act while on drugs. Possession sentencing laws vary, depending on amount held for personal use vs amount held that meets criteria for intent to distribute. The type of drugs held is also relevant. Marijuana possession sentences are usually minimal, seldonw reaching prison (most end in county jails of there is a sentence called for), while heroin and cocaine and meth tend to merit much higher sentences.

Just saying "end the drug war" is not the prison panacea people think it will be.
Click to expand...

But that's just part of the story. The reason lots of people turn to dealing drugs is to fund their addiction or habit, which is the same reason many drug users turn to crimes such as burglary etc. Besides that, when you have a lot of demand for a product like illegal drugs, someone is going to fill it and we make those who do by definition criminals. So we have created this entire class of criminals who use and/or sell "illegal" drugs, and it's failed to make a real dent in the supply or use of most of them, but it has filled up our prisons in a decades long losing battle to combat "illegal" drug use.

You'd think we'd have learned our lessons with prohibition but we doubled down on it and the results are/were predictable, and won't ever change. We'll not win this 'war' on 'drugs.'
 
VanceMack said:
Not so. Even in places like California and Colorado were it essentially legal, they have seen an INCREASE in black market distribution of marijuana and illegal growing. And you dont REALLY want to see ALL drugs decriminalized, do you?
Click to expand...

I expect the black market will work itself out like it did with alcohol. There's a large distribution network in place for pot, and it shouldn't be a surprise that it didn't disappear overnight, especially given the taxes and still heavy regulation and the fact it's still illegal in many states, providing a still lucrative market for illegal growers and distributors. If pot were available like alcohol, the moonshiner-equivalents would slowly die off like they have with alcohol. They still exist, of course, but it's a small problem, and the vast majority of sellers and users of alcohol don't bother with the black market because they have a liquor/convenience/grocery store a block away.

As far as "ALL" drugs, I've changed over time and basically believe nearly all should be. Just take heroin - that's a bad drug, subject to abuse, but is it better for fentanyl to fill the void, which it has, killing a bunch of people around here? It's not an easy problem to solve, but it's apparent what we're doing has failed and will continue to fail.
 
OrphanSlug said:
What I will stipulate is the stats on this, and how they are cut up, are all over the place on this. By government stats alone decriminalizing drugs and releasing possession and distribution charges only would put us somewhere in the 25% to 35% range, if we separate out federal from state (and local) we seem to end up somewhere in the 15% to 25% range.

When I rather whimsically said "half the problem" what I am referring to is the socioeconomic impact of what the "War on Drugs" has done to this nation.

What that really means is the development of a subculture (for lack of a better way to put it) within society that ends up branded with several lifelong consequences from being in some phase of the criminal justice system, a very long way of saying we send way too many people down an economic and/or racial disproportionate path with few possibilities of return. Any sociologist or criminologist will talk about likely behavior once someone goes into that life and the likely behavior once part of the prison system. Since we've started this mess we've had an almost 400% increase in our Prison population and it is a bit asinine to divorce Drug related crimes from all others on the assumption they are divorced out there in this subculture I am talking about.

I would agree on the surface that the numbers when applied purely to charge and sentence skews the results, but it also makes us ask what criminal motivations are reduced when we take away the realized results of this so called War on Drugs.

We have spent roughly 50 years on this effort and the results are staggering. Before we were not even in the top 20 among comparable nations in incarceration rate, we now lead the planet in this area dwarfing nations including Cuba, Russian, China, Iran, Turkey... everyone. Arrests for Drug related crimes has almost tripled (even if they all did not end up with some lengthy sentence in a federal prison somewhere.) We are in the $Billions per year dealing with the costs of fighting the war, prosecution of those caught, and ultimately housing those found guilty.

When someone asks how to reduce prison costs and populations, the answer is looking to what failed society.

The War on Drugs did not make us safer, did not reduce crime overall, did not reduce drug demand (usage,) and did not improve our society. If anything, it took a portion of the nation and made them targets and by most measure removed them from mainstream society.

What we know as a War on Drugs was really a targeted war on certain people. It took those without much means, disproportionately included minorities in that group, and criminalized them to the point of creating this subculture. We know now that certain communities are targeted, and that reflects in the results. The AMA will tell us that economics impacts drug use far more than race, yet minorities are 3 to 4 times more likely to be policed and arrested for a drug related crime. Well over 60% of the prison population are minorities, and it is worse when considering drug related crimes.

Ultimately my point is sociology tells us ending the War on Drugs solves other issues, because it addresses a fault in thinking almost 50 years old producing no measurable success other than removing a significant percentage of the minority population from mainstream participation.
Click to expand...
I agree with the premise. You really cant have a war on...ideology. You can declare war in drug importers...or on illegal transfer...but the war on drugs was just not well strategerized.
 
So for one thing, I propose that prison space is saved for those who really deserve to be there, people that rape, murder, rob, ect. On the other hand, people such as Shaneen Allen don't deserve to go to prison and fortunately she was pardoned and didn't go to prison but she could've. Here is a link to Shaneen Allen's story.
https://www.nj.com/politics/index.s...y_christie_woman_pushed_for_change_to_us.html
 
DebateChallenge said:
Incarcerating criminals is expensive. From what I understand it costs roughly 60K a year per inmate to run a prison and there are currently about 2.5 million inmates incarcerated in the USA. If you do the math you will see just how big a chunk its taking out of our tax dollars. Any ideas for reducing the costs of running prisons? We obviously can't turn the inmates loose but Im interested in hearing ideas, and I've got some ideas of my own.
Click to expand...

We could repeal mandatory minimums, end the war on drugs, and shift towards a more rehabilitative system like the one found in Norway.
 
VanceMack said:
I am in favor of decriminalizing marijuana and dont believe people should be put in prison SOLELY for drug use. The reality though is...that they are not. Those in prison on drug related offenses are in the vast majority there due to distribution/sales, or the commission of a criminal act while on drugs. Possession sentencing laws vary, depending on amount held for personal use vs amount held that meets criteria for intent to distribute. The type of drugs held is also relevant. Marijuana possession sentences are usually minimal, seldonw reaching prison (most end in county jails of there is a sentence called for), while heroin and cocaine and meth tend to merit much higher sentences.

Just saying "end the drug war" is not the prison panacea people think it will be.
Click to expand...

I don't think anybody is suggesting ending the drug prohibition would be a panacea at all, but there is no question it would be a step in the right direction, a huge improvement.

Certainly when it comes to predator type persons, prison has a valid function. The trouble is we abuse the criminal sanction, acting as though it solves all problems.
 
Thoreau72 said:
I don't think anybody is suggesting ending the drug prohibition would be a panacea at all, but there is no question it would be a step in the right direction, a huge improvement.

Certainly when it comes to predator type persons, prison has a valid function. The trouble is we abuse the criminal sanction, acting as though it solves all problems.
Click to expand...
The problem is, we still have 1.2 MILLION violent crimes every year. Prison hold capacities do not CREATE the crime or the criminal.

Prisons get the heat, but prisons arent the problem. Drugs are a commonly discussed problem with regard to prisons, but I think there is a misconception about just who it is that is in prison. Many (not all) will say that 'the war on drugs is responsible for our prisons being full...but its not really the case. Users arent the ones filling the jails. Users that commit other crimes...sure...but that wont go away if drugs are decriminalized. Dealers? Sure...but as we have seen in both California and Colorado, the black market INCREASED after legalization, and thats just with marijuana. And while I have long advocated for legalization of marijuana, I think it would be nuts to decriminalize all drugs. SO you will still have the problem with trafficking of heroin, cocaine, meth, and other illegal drugs. AND...we also have to remember that for gangs, drug trafficking is one of the ways they make money and if you take that, we cant assume they are going to go legit and NOT find new and inventive ways to commit crimes like human trafficking, increases in theft, etc.

When it comes to prisons...I think people have the wrong idea. SURE...make sure that only those that SHOULD be in prison are in prison. But if we are being honest...our problem isnt too many people in prison...its not enough. We need to build more, and expand sentencing for violent crimes. Ideally, there is a component also that would invest in economic (job) opportunities in cities with major crime problems but that would require fewer illegal immigrants, and more manufacturing jobs.
 
VanceMack said:
The problem is, we still have 1.2 MILLION violent crimes every year. Prison hold capacities do not CREATE the crime or the criminal.

Prisons get the heat, but prisons arent the problem. Drugs are a commonly discussed problem with regard to prisons, but I think there is a misconception about just who it is that is in prison. Many (not all) will say that 'the war on drugs is responsible for our prisons being full...but its not really the case. Users arent the ones filling the jails. Users that commit other crimes...sure...but that wont go away if drugs are decriminalized. Dealers? Sure...but as we have seen in both California and Colorado, the black market INCREASED after legalization, and thats just with marijuana. And while I have long advocated for legalization of marijuana, I think it would be nuts to decriminalize all drugs. SO you will still have the problem with trafficking of heroin, cocaine, meth, and other illegal drugs. AND...we also have to remember that for gangs, drug trafficking is one of the ways they make money and if you take that, we cant assume they are going to go legit and NOT find new and inventive ways to commit crimes like human trafficking, increases in theft, etc.

When it comes to prisons...I think people have the wrong idea. SURE...make sure that only those that SHOULD be in prison are in prison. But if we are being honest...our problem isnt too many people in prison...its not enough. We need to build more, and expand sentencing for violent crimes. Ideally, there is a component also that would invest in economic (job) opportunities in cities with major crime problems but that would require fewer illegal immigrants, and more manufacturing jobs.
Click to expand...

My son lives in Colorado and is licensed to grow. I've visited several times, and I am most skeptical of your claim that the black market has increased since the legalization. I have heard people in law enforcement, particularly in states adjacent, but I am skeptical of that claim. The tax revenues for the state and counties are very good from the bureaucratic perspective.

Of course dealers are imprisoned at higher rates than users, especially on the federal level. If drugs were legal, including the ones you are afraid of, the only dealers would be licensed and tax-paying health professionals.

The book LICIT & ILLICIT DRUGS, no longer in print but published back in the 70's detailed some of the crime statistics pertaining to crime associated with alcohol prohibition. Going only from memory here, and using several cities in the upper Midwest, Detroit and Chicago I think, the general sequence of events was this: Prior to the passage of the Volstead Act, certain categories of crime like burglary and robbery were at level X. After the passage of Volstead those categories in those cities climbed considerably. Let's just say 2X for this purpose.

Volstead was repealed after about 14 years. In the several years prior to repeal, the crimes stats in those cities was still (for this purpose) 2X. In the months and years after the repeal, the stats returned to their original figures, more or less. That phenomenon is why serious social scientists understand the relationship between prohibition and crime.
 
Thoreau72 said:
My son lives in Colorado and is licensed to grow. I've visited several times, and I am most skeptical of your claim that the black market has increased since the legalization. I have heard people in law enforcement, particularly in states adjacent, but I am skeptical of that claim. The tax revenues for the state and counties are very good from the bureaucratic perspective.

Of course dealers are imprisoned at higher rates than users, especially on the federal level. If drugs were legal, including the ones you are afraid of, the only dealers would be licensed and tax-paying health professionals.

The book LICIT & ILLICIT DRUGS, no longer in print but published back in the 70's detailed some of the crime statistics pertaining to crime associated with alcohol prohibition. Going only from memory here, and using several cities in the upper Midwest, Detroit and Chicago I think, the general sequence of events was this: Prior to the passage of the Volstead Act, certain categories of crime like burglary and robbery were at level X. After the passage of Volstead those categories in those cities climbed considerably. Let's just say 2X for this purpose.

Volstead was repealed after about 14 years. In the several years prior to repeal, the crimes stats in those cities was still (for this purpose) 2X. In the months and years after the repeal, the stats returned to their original figures, more or less. That phenomenon is why serious social scientists understand the relationship between prohibition and crime.
Click to expand...
Im ok with skepticism. Would you believe articles posted from Colorado? Or should I not bother. Seems folk tend to believe what they are committed to believe.
 
VanceMack said:
Im ok with skepticism. Would you believe articles posted from Colorado? Or should I not bother. Seems folk tend to believe what they are committed to believe.
Click to expand...

I would certainly be interested in reading any article about the increase in black market activity after legalization, thanks.
 
Bottom line...complaining about prison population and costs is like complaining that your stable is too small. The problem isnt the size of your stable...its that you have too many horses for the stable that you have.

We have a lot of prisoners. True that. We also have a lot of ****ers committing crime. Why does that part always get ignored?
 
VanceMack said:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/colorado-marijuana-black-market-1.4647198
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...home-grown-marijuana-pot-legal-states-n875666
https://coloradopolitics.com/cover-story-the-mystery-of-colorado-black-market-pot/
Click to expand...

Thanks for those articles. The first 2 describe the black market as being out of state. People from out of state are growing in Colorado because it's easier, and then taking the product to their home states and territories. That would seem to be a logical result of the prohibition still being in effect in more states and territories than it is legal in. That would be not so much a failure of legal markets as it is a failure to craft a national policy in a country with 50 states and only 13 legal states. It's not a failure of legalization so much as it is a failure of a rational nationwide policy.

The third article points out that the numbers turned in by various unconnected police agencies are very inaccurate, that they cannot be confirmed or categorized as easily as some might like.

I expect LEO to protect their turf, even with numbers as vague as they can find. Except for the honest cops of LEAP, the others are merely protecting their turf with grand tales of (gasp) people growing and selling pot for a profit. Goodness, what a crime.
 
VanceMack said:
I am in favor of decriminalizing marijuana and dont believe people should be put in prison SOLELY for drug use. The reality though is...that they are not. Those in prison on drug related offenses are in the vast majority there due to distribution/sales, or the commission of a criminal act while on drugs. Possession sentencing laws vary, depending on amount held for personal use vs amount held that meets criteria for intent to distribute. The type of drugs held is also relevant. Marijuana possession sentences are usually minimal, seldonw reaching prison (most end in county jails of there is a sentence called for), while heroin and cocaine and meth tend to merit much higher sentences.

Just saying "end the drug war" is not the prison panacea people think it will be.
Click to expand...



Thailand is seeking to decriminalize 'Yaba', a pill made of crystal methamphetamine and caffeine. It has the same effects, both short and long term, of meth amphetamine and is deemed more harmful than meth amphetamine and heroin but is the Asian craze that children as young as 10 are participating in and which is becoming 'posh' among the well to dos.


On 16 June 2016, the National Council for Peace and Order, the military junta ruling Thailand, stated that it was planning to decriminalise ya ba in the country.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ya_ba


The rise of A.I.D.S being seen in China is causing more trasmittable disease deaths each year than the combined total transmittable disease deaths in past previous years.

In other words, in 2008, in the first 9 months, there were 7000 A.I.D.S deaths which was almost, 1000 less, as much as the total transmittable disease deaths for the previous 3 years.


Yaba could be a reason for the newly developing A.I.D.S disease within China.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_China


Yaba is now being found in New York State as well in International Countries, such as Israel.

And this could be a reason why:

God is not The God of Israel. The LORD God IS The GOD of Y'srael. Even they themselves, the Israelis, are leaving their heritage by dishonoring their own true language.


There is no Jehovah in Y'srael because Hebrew does not have the letter 'J' nor the letter 'I' in their alphabet.
 
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