Liberation Movements Gone Mad - Bad Behavior, Teen Pregnancy, Truancy and Hopelessnes the Result

JBG · Jul 16, 2018

I recently became aware of an online rant by certain individual, who stated that he was between 15 and 18 years old. The person presented himself as a high school student. He described himself as living in “Loserville,” a town adjacent to “Craktown” and stated that he was only interested in “getting money fast” and “school (is) not (his) interest.” He also described that he and his friends were into activities that were “very not right.”

This post or essay from this young man seemed intelligent. He stated that he was not a migrant or a member of any group subject to racial or ethnic discrimination.

This got me to thinking about problems such as teen pregnancies, dropping out of society, opioid abuse and bad behavior generally. These people are, in general, not going to grow into being providers. They are going to parent children who don't know their fathers, and may not even know their mothers, because of incarceration.

The question is how do we get people back to pride in their homes, schools and community? Single parenthood, unconventional relationships, and dropping out of school are the order of the day. What have we gained by "liberating" people from nuclear family-hood? And teaching children that there are no rules, no limits. Is the mental anguish this is causing eased only by opioids? Why are religious, educational or community leaders taking an interest? Where are the pastors, teachers and small-town mayors?

While politically I am liberal, I feel that experimentation in lifestyles, gender identities and sexual promiscuity that has developed since the "Summer of (Free) Love" in Haight-Ashbury in 1967 has not ended well. Time to walk back from the experiment. Maybe "Ozzie and Harriet"and "Leave it to Beaver" were cornball but at at least the results are better than we have now.

Liberation is liberating, except for the inevitable victims. If people can't handle being parents, they shouldn't have children. Full stop.

Having the mass of teenagers in areas that are not upper-middle class and affluent bored out of their minds is not a solution. These people often turn to opioids, sex and petty crime to ease the boredom. Many fancy themselves "transgender" for the thrill and drama. Quite simply in many areas people perceive no future; none.

They are bored with school since the only post-school career path seems to be the military. If you suggest they read or exercise in their (too abundant) leisure time, they laugh. Except there's nothing funny about it.

In the "good old days" households did not typically consist of a mangled mix of half-siblings. No one is asking if they're doing their homework. In school the teachers struggle with sleeping students or students distracted by their devices. I suppose that beats the alternative, violence.

But seriously, things are fine for people from disciplined and disciplining families. For others, not so much.

WillyPete · Jul 16, 2018

I agree on the problems, but don't see social changes as the cause.

I see it as the rise of runaway Capitalism that eats people up and gives little back. Young people see that and become disheartened before they even get started, and then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

People used to be able to hold the same job for 20-30 years without feeling like they're losing out, so they could become comfortable and focus on other aspects of their lives, but nowadays that's less common.

JBG · Jul 16, 2018

WillyPete said:
I agree on the problems, but don't see social changes as the cause.

I see it as the rise of runaway Capitalism that eats people up and gives little back. Young people see that and become disheartened before they even get started, and then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

People used to be able to hold the same job for 20-30 years without feeling like they're losing out, so they could become comfortable and focus on other aspects of their lives, but nowadays that's less common.

Why don't people start their own businesses then? And why do people without steady work procreate?

WillyPete · Jul 17, 2018

JBG said:
Why don't people start their own businesses then? And why do people without steady work procreate?

Not everyone has the the wherewithal to start or manage a business. Some perfectly intelligent people are terrible with money and/or paperwork, or simply can't make money a top priority, no matter how much sense that might make to others.

As far as procreation goes, you've got instinctive behavior to overcome there. We aren't nearly so far out the cave as we'd like to think.

My point before was that more people used to be able to have a comfortable life where they didn't need to do these things. The idea that you need to do more to get the same no doubt would strike some as quite depressing, which could lead to all those behaviors we're worried about.

I expect it to often be even worse for some who tried these things and failed. Plenty of that, too.

JBG · Jul 17, 2018

WillyPete said:
Not everyone has the the wherewithal to start or manage a business. Some perfectly intelligent people are terrible with money and/or paperwork, or simply can't make money a top priority, no matter how much sense that might make to others.

Understood but that is one option, though not for everybody. People can also combine to open a business, joining money or paperwork acumen to making or selling widgets.

WillyPete said:
As far as procreation goes, you've got instinctive behavior to overcome there. We aren't nearly so far out the cave as we'd like to think.

My point before was that more people used to be able to have a comfortable life where they didn't need to do these things. The idea that you need to do more to get the same no doubt would strike some as quite depressing, which could lead to all those behaviors we're worried about.

I expect it to often be even worse for some who tried these things and failed. Plenty of that, too.

This wasn't so bad when the cultural tradition was to marry, whether before or after pregnancy, to have children. It served as a natural break on procreation, since the man as well as the woman was going to wind up with serious responsibilities.

An article in today's New York Times unintentionally highlighted the problem. The article is: The Baby’s Coming. But the Hospital Is 100 Miles Away.

This article describes the distress in the southeastern corner of Missouri, but could really be Anytown, USA. Specifically the article concerns people whose nearest obstetric facility is 50-100 miles away, and they're about to give birth. Two heart-rending snippets from the article (article about two print pages so quoting not a TOS violation):

New York Times said:
The only obstetrician in Kennett had operated his practice out of the hospital, and he began discharging patients and winding down services in the weeks before Twin Rivers closed. Women said his waiting room became a scene of sadness and confusion as they worried about where they would go next and how they would afford gas for weekly visits at distant hospitals when they barely had enough money to pay electric bills and rent.

New York Times said:
Ms. Abernathy said she was eager to bring the twins home and to get back to her $8.50-an-hour job as a home health aide. There is rent to make, baby clothes to purchase, $80 of gas to buy for the coming week.

The million-dollar question is, how are people going to afford a proper raising for a baby if they can barely afford gas for a 50-mile drive to a hospital? Even that drive, a 100-mile round trip, involves, say, five gallons, or about $15.00.

What people really need to think about individually is how they can maintain a decent lifestyle, for themselves and those thrust into their lives. And society needs to find a way to employ people productively. Reducing single parenthood would go a long way on both.

Entertainment, such as is available and affordable, promotes questionable values and behavior. And the main non-violent recreational activity available and attractive to teens and young adults is sex. The protagonist in the article who is the mother of the twins in question is 21. She already was the mother of a two year old baby.

This is an issue about responsible decision-making as well as about health care. And to specifically address the post above, these problems cannot all be dumped onto productive elements of society. People themselves have to take responsibility.

WillyPete · Jul 17, 2018

JBG said:
This wasn't so bad when the cultural tradition was to marry, whether before or after pregnancy, to have children. It served as a natural break on procreation, since the man as well as the woman was going to wind up with serious responsibilities.

To your point on the cultural changes, we've done away with much of the shame that motivated people previously. Certainly there are negatives, but I wouldn't go back. If we as a society decide it is worthwhile to encourage marriage before children, there's nothing simpler than increasing the incentives. Maybe increase the tax benefits for a married couple with dependents, that is lost if they divorce. It needn't be a large incentive to have an effect.

An article in today's New York Times unintentionally highlighted the problem. The article is: The Baby’s Coming. But the Hospital Is 100 Miles Away.

This article describes the distress in the southeastern corner of Missouri, but could really be Anytown, USA. Specifically the article concerns people whose nearest obstetric facility is 50-100 miles away, and they're about to give birth. Two heart-rending snippets from the article (article about two print pages so quoting not a TOS violation):

I see this as a state policy thing, and it speaks to my point regarding runaway Capitalism. I'd guess there is no service to that part of the state because it's not profitable. If we as a society agree these services are important, it becomes the state's role to arrange for them to be present universally, even if it's not economically viable on its own. Capitalism recoils at such "waste."

The million-dollar question is, how are people going to afford a proper raising for a baby if they can barely afford gas for a 50-mile drive to a hospital? Even that drive, a 100-mile round trip, involves, say, five gallons, or about $15.00.

What people really need to think about individually is how they can maintain a decent lifestyle, for themselves and those thrust into their lives. And society needs to find a way to employ people productively. Reducing single parenthood would go a long way on both.

Entertainment, such as is available and affordable, promotes questionable values and behavior. And the main non-violent recreational activity available and attractive to teens and young adults is sex. The protagonist in the article who is the mother of the twins in question is 21. She already was the mother of a two year old baby.

This is an issue about responsible decision-making as well as about health care. And to specifically address the post above, these problems cannot all be dumped onto productive elements of society. People themselves have to take responsibility.

Personal responsibility is good and it is lacking in many but it always has been. You note society has responsibilities as well, and I think that's really where the big gains are to be made. We need to stop equating money with value, and start providing an environment that permits people who aren't running at full capacity to survive comfortably.

MrWonka · Jul 17, 2018

JBG said:
The question is how do we get people back to pride in their homes, schools, and community?

End the war on drugs. Properly fund education. End Racism.

JBG said:
What have we gained by "liberating" people from nuclear family-hood? And teaching children that there are no rules, no limits.

We have done none of these things.

Visbek · Jul 17, 2018

JBG said:
I recently became aware of an online rant by certain individual, who stated that he was between 15 and 18 years old. The person presented himself as a high school student. He described himself as living in “Loserville,” a town adjacent to “Craktown” and stated that he was only interested in “getting money fast” and “school (is) not (his) interest.” He also described that he and his friends were into activities that were “very not right.”....

Y'know, this may not be the most effective way to put it, but... Most of what you're writing is just total bull****.

• Teen pregnancy is down.

• Drug use by teens is not particularly high.

• Crime rates have dropped almost every year since the early 90s.

• High school dropout rates are falling.

• College attendance and graduation rates are rising.

• The big issue with opiates is not that use is soaring, but that the introduction of fentanyl -- an insanely powerful drug that is carelessly mixed in with other drugs -- results in much higher fatalities than in the past.

• I seriously doubt that anyone is casually trying on "transgender" like it's a pair of jeans. Transgender individuals are probably subjected to the worst harassment, discrimination and physical jeopardy our society can dish out, especially for minorities. Even in the most liberal parts of the nation, coming out as transgender is like asking people to spit on you every day (or worse).

I also cannot view the 1950s and early 1960s through rose-colored glasses. Granted, for straight white men it was OK, but everyone else got screwed. Minimal safety nets for the poor; poverty rates were higher; women were discriminated against, especially in education and the workplace; segregation was normal; LGBT rights were nonexistent, the list goes on. Even for those privileged whites, there were constant moral panics over Communism, the USSR, "Red China," comic books, Elvis, long hair....

Go back to the 1950s? Hard pass.

Young people today definitely face some difficult challenges, but ultimately most of them are due to economic inequality -- which is the same major issue facing their parents, too. That won't be fixed by trying to pretend that gay people don't exist, that teenagers don't have sex, and that Jimi Hendrix never played guitar.

Mr Person · Jul 18, 2018

JBG said:
I recently became aware of an online rant by certain individual, who stated that he was between 15 and 18 years old. The person presented himself as a high school student. He described himself as living in “Loserville,” a town adjacent to “Craktown” and stated that he was only interested in “getting money fast” and “school (is) not (his) interest.” He also described that he and his friends were into activities that were “very not right.”

This post or essay from this young man seemed intelligent. He stated that he was not a migrant or a member of any group subject to racial or ethnic discrimination.

This got me to thinking about problems such as teen pregnancies, dropping out of society, opioid abuse and bad behavior generally. These people are, in general, not going to grow into being providers. They are going to parent children who don't know their fathers, and may not even know their mothers, because of incarceration.

The question is how do we get people back to pride in their homes, schools and community? Single parenthood, unconventional relationships, and dropping out of school are the order of the day. What have we gained by "liberating" people from nuclear family-hood? And teaching children that there are no rules, no limits. Is the mental anguish this is causing eased only by opioids? Why are religious, educational or community leaders taking an interest? Where are the pastors, teachers and small-town mayors?

While politically I am liberal, I feel that experimentation in lifestyles, gender identities and sexual promiscuity that has developed since the "Summer of (Free) Love" in Haight-Ashbury in 1967 has not ended well. Time to walk back from the experiment. Maybe "Ozzie and Harriet"and "Leave it to Beaver" were cornball but at at least the results are better than we have now.

Liberation is liberating, except for the inevitable victims. If people can't handle being parents, they shouldn't have children. Full stop.

Having the mass of teenagers in areas that are not upper-middle class and affluent bored out of their minds is not a solution. These people often turn to opioids, sex and petty crime to ease the boredom. Many fancy themselves "transgender" for the thrill and drama. Quite simply in many areas people perceive no future; none.

They are bored with school since the only post-school career path seems to be the military. If you suggest they read or exercise in their (too abundant) leisure time, they laugh. Except there's nothing funny about it.

In the "good old days" households did not typically consist of a mangled mix of half-siblings. No one is asking if they're doing their homework. In school the teachers struggle with sleeping students or students distracted by their devices. I suppose that beats the alternative, violence.

But seriously, things are fine for people from disciplined and disciplining families. For others, not so much.

TV shows from the era were not even close to representative of actual society.

A book I'm nearly done with has been very informative. "The 1950s". David Halberstam. Very comprehensive.

gdgyva · Jul 18, 2018

JBG said:
I recently became aware of an online rant by certain individual, who stated that he was between 15 and 18 years old. The person presented himself as a high school student. He described himself as living in “Loserville,” a town adjacent to “Craktown” and stated that he was only interested in “getting money fast” and “school (is) not (his) interest.” He also described that he and his friends were into activities that were “very not right.”

This post or essay from this young man seemed intelligent. He stated that he was not a migrant or a member of any group subject to racial or ethnic discrimination.

This got me to thinking about problems such as teen pregnancies, dropping out of society, opioid abuse and bad behavior generally. These people are, in general, not going to grow into being providers. They are going to parent children who don't know their fathers, and may not even know their mothers, because of incarceration.

The question is how do we get people back to pride in their homes, schools and community? Single parenthood, unconventional relationships, and dropping out of school are the order of the day. What have we gained by "liberating" people from nuclear family-hood? And teaching children that there are no rules, no limits. Is the mental anguish this is causing eased only by opioids? Why are religious, educational or community leaders taking an interest? Where are the pastors, teachers and small-town mayors?

While politically I am liberal, I feel that experimentation in lifestyles, gender identities and sexual promiscuity that has developed since the "Summer of (Free) Love" in Haight-Ashbury in 1967 has not ended well. Time to walk back from the experiment. Maybe "Ozzie and Harriet"and "Leave it to Beaver" were cornball but at at least the results are better than we have now.

Liberation is liberating, except for the inevitable victims. If people can't handle being parents, they shouldn't have children. Full stop.

Having the mass of teenagers in areas that are not upper-middle class and affluent bored out of their minds is not a solution. These people often turn to opioids, sex and petty crime to ease the boredom. Many fancy themselves "transgender" for the thrill and drama. Quite simply in many areas people perceive no future; none.

They are bored with school since the only post-school career path seems to be the military. If you suggest they read or exercise in their (too abundant) leisure time, they laugh. Except there's nothing funny about it.

In the "good old days" households did not typically consist of a mangled mix of half-siblings. No one is asking if they're doing their homework. In school the teachers struggle with sleeping students or students distracted by their devices. I suppose that beats the alternative, violence.

But seriously, things are fine for people from disciplined and disciplining families. For others, not so much.

it starts and usually ends with the parents

good parents usually produce good kids (not always but much better chance)

bad parents makes it all uphill for the kids....just one more mountain to overcome...as if there isnt enough of them already in their way

roguenuke · Jul 19, 2018

JBG said:
I recently became aware of an online rant by certain individual, who stated that he was between 15 and 18 years old. The person presented himself as a high school student. He described himself as living in “Loserville,” a town adjacent to “Craktown” and stated that he was only interested in “getting money fast” and “school (is) not (his) interest.” He also described that he and his friends were into activities that were “very not right.”

This post or essay from this young man seemed intelligent. He stated that he was not a migrant or a member of any group subject to racial or ethnic discrimination.

This got me to thinking about problems such as teen pregnancies, dropping out of society, opioid abuse and bad behavior generally. These people are, in general, not going to grow into being providers. They are going to parent children who don't know their fathers, and may not even know their mothers, because of incarceration.

The question is how do we get people back to pride in their homes, schools and community? Single parenthood, unconventional relationships, and dropping out of school are the order of the day. What have we gained by "liberating" people from nuclear family-hood? And teaching children that there are no rules, no limits. Is the mental anguish this is causing eased only by opioids? Why are religious, educational or community leaders taking an interest? Where are the pastors, teachers and small-town mayors?

While politically I am liberal, I feel that experimentation in lifestyles, gender identities and sexual promiscuity that has developed since the "Summer of (Free) Love" in Haight-Ashbury in 1967 has not ended well. Time to walk back from the experiment. Maybe "Ozzie and Harriet"and "Leave it to Beaver" were cornball but at at least the results are better than we have now.

Liberation is liberating, except for the inevitable victims. If people can't handle being parents, they shouldn't have children. Full stop.

Having the mass of teenagers in areas that are not upper-middle class and affluent bored out of their minds is not a solution. These people often turn to opioids, sex and petty crime to ease the boredom. Many fancy themselves "transgender" for the thrill and drama. Quite simply in many areas people perceive no future; none.

They are bored with school since the only post-school career path seems to be the military. If you suggest they read or exercise in their (too abundant) leisure time, they laugh. Except there's nothing funny about it.

In the "good old days" households did not typically consist of a mangled mix of half-siblings. No one is asking if they're doing their homework. In school the teachers struggle with sleeping students or students distracted by their devices. I suppose that beats the alternative, violence.

But seriously, things are fine for people from disciplined and disciplining families. For others, not so much.

My children are disciplined, but likely in a way different than you and others would think works best (they lose privileges mainly when it comes to punishment, which isn't even something we have to use often). Yet my children are also from a pretty open home, where we discuss sexuality on occasion and support gay rights, including same sex marriage. I have a transgender sister who has stayed with us and my sons know her (she gave them her Lego crate). They will be getting cell phones within the next month (mainly out of necessity, especially for the younger).

Additionally, as others have pointed out, most of the things on your list are viewed from the perspective of someone who has an idealized vision of the past, and a less-than-accurate vision of the present. Teen pregnancy rates are at the lowest they've been since the 1940s (note that this says pregnancy rates, not birth rates). Where many increases in these rates occur are those places where they fail to teach comprehensive sex education.

Social media is a major cause for concern, especially for teenagers, but this is more due to the ability to follow the examples of more stupid people rather than simply those within their own neighborhood. But it does have positives as well when used to connect and build on positive ideas, like a new trend in asking for donations to be made to various causes in lieu of birthday gifts. There was a time when many young men, as teens, had no other ambition but to be part of the mob. Why? Because that was what people did to get ahead in their neighborhoods, that is what they saw. Teens, even kids, see a lot more of the world, and different things going on it than they did even just 30 years ago, let alone 60 and 90 years.

JBG · Jul 20, 2018

roguenuke said:
My children are disciplined, but likely in a way different than you and others would think works best (they lose privileges mainly when it comes to punishment, which isn't even something we have to use often).

Same here. In a disciplined household the children know what the parents expect and by and large do what they're supposed to. Not 100% with homework but still pretty good. My young adults are 22 and 20. The 20 year old graduated from a college for high-functioning special needs children with an Associates degree in May and my 22 year old graduated with a B.S. in Engineering. For obvious reasons the younger son needed more prodding on homework.

roguenuke said:
Yet my children are also from a pretty open home, where we discuss sexuality on occasion and support gay rights, including same sex marriage. I have a transgender sister who has stayed with us and my sons know her (she gave them her Lego crate). They will be getting cell phones within the next month (mainly out of necessity, especially for the younger).

Gay rights, including same sex marriage and transgender rights are open to discussion but it's just not a big topic. There are more important things than navel-gazing on gender identity.

roguenuke said:
Additionally, as others have pointed out, most of the things on your list are viewed from the perspective of someone who has an idealized vision of the past, and a less-than-accurate vision of the present. Teen pregnancy rates are at the lowest they've been since the 1940s (note that this says pregnancy rates, not birth rates). Where many increases in these rates occur are those places where they fail to teach comprehensive sex education.

The difference is that back in the day those were more commonly followed by marriage. The link between marriage and parenthood has frayed if not broken. Even though those marriages were often not great the consequences of sexual activity impacted on the male far more often.

roguenuke said:
Social media is a major cause for concern, especially for teenagers, but this is more due to the ability to follow the examples of more stupid people rather than simply those within their own neighborhood. But it does have positives as well when used to connect and build on positive ideas, like a new trend in asking for donations to be made to various causes in lieu of birthday gifts. There was a time when many young men, as teens, had no other ambition but to be part of the mob. Why? Because that was what people did to get ahead in their neighborhoods, that is what they saw. Teens, even kids, see a lot more of the world, and different things going on it than they did even just 30 years ago, let alone 60 and 90 years.

Street gangs are the new "mob."

roguenuke · Jul 24, 2018

JBG said:
Same here. In a disciplined household the children know what the parents expect and by and large do what they're supposed to. Not 100% with homework but still pretty good. My young adults are 22 and 20. The 20 year old graduated from a college for high-functioning special needs children with an Associates degree in May and my 22 year old graduated with a B.S. in Engineering. For obvious reasons the younger son needed more prodding on homework.Gay rights, including same sex marriage and transgender rights are open to discussion but it's just not a big topic. There are more important things than navel-gazing on gender identity.

The difference is that back in the day those were more commonly followed by marriage. The link between marriage and parenthood has frayed if not broken. Even though those marriages were often not great the consequences of sexual activity impacted on the male far more often.

Street gangs are the new "mob."

Marriages that happen due to an impending child have been shown to not last nor really be healthy for the child. That is not something that should happen. I've seen the broken results of such a marriage.

Street gangs may be the new "mob", to a point (there still is a mob, several in fact), but much less likely to actually be a "goal" for people in such neighborhoods to be involved, especially encouraged, to be involved in by parents, peers, others. The mob was even seen by some parents as a good thing to be part of. I have yet to hear of parents encouraging their children to be in street gangs. Some do not discourage them, but few actually encourage it.

JBG · Jul 24, 2018

roguenuke said:
Marriages that happen due to an impending child have been shown to not last nor really be healthy for the child. That is not something that should happen. I've seen the broken results of such a marriage.

My wife is the product of such a marriage. While they split after three years, at least the father remained heavily involved. It is far better than having a father with at best a mystical connection to his child or in the case of my wife twins.

roguenuke · Jul 24, 2018

JBG said:
My wife is the product of such a marriage. While they split after three years, at least the father remained heavily involved. It is far better than having a father with at best a mystical connection to his child or in the case of my wife twins.

Some fathers did, others didn't. Some mothers didn't and the fathers stepped up (although this is more common today). Other times someone else raised the child. Sometimes one or both parents are toxic to the child and should not be involved.

It is harder now because our belief that marriage should be based on more than just having kids is much stronger now than it was in even the 1960s.

Liberation Movements Gone Mad - Bad Behavior, Teen Pregnancy, Truancy and Hopelessnes the Result

JBG

WillyPete

The sound of one chao mooing.

JBG

WillyPete

The sound of one chao mooing.

JBG

WillyPete

The sound of one chao mooing.

MrWonka

Visbek

Stuck In The Circle

Mr Person

A Little Bitter

gdgyva

roguenuke

JBG

roguenuke

JBG

roguenuke