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When Ends Justify the Means

calamity

calamity

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Ok, here we go. Let's explore an area where I diverge immensely from my friends on the Left, and even most of those on the Right. I like that cops can lie.

Ok, **** you. I live in the real world. So, if some piece of **** has someone hidden in a box somewhere, I like it when cops lie to get him to spill his guts. Whatever it takes. If police have to manipulate the garbage bag to get him to talk, I really could not give a **** about his rights. **** him and the horse he rode in on.
 
calamity said:
Ok, here we go. Let's explore an area where I diverge immensely from my friends on the Left, and even most of those on the Right. I like that cops can lie.

Ok, **** you. I live in the real world. So, if some piece of **** has someone hidden in a box somewhere, I like it when cops lie to get him to spill his guts. Whatever it takes. If police have to manipulate the garbage bag to get him to talk, I really could not give a **** about his rights. **** him and the horse he rode in on.
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I see a huge difference in lying to a suspect and lying to the community at large.
 
calamity said:
Ok, here we go. Let's explore an area where I diverge immensely from my friends on the Left, and even most of those on the Right. I like that cops can lie.

Ok, **** you. I live in the real world. So, if some piece of **** has someone hidden in a box somewhere, I like it when cops lie to get him to spill his guts. Whatever it takes. If police have to manipulate the garbage bag to get him to talk, I really could not give a **** about his rights. **** him and the horse he rode in on.
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The problem is nobody actually knows ahead of time if suspect X is actually guilty and has someone in a box somewhere. If we had a magical machine that told us he definitely is guilty, few people would care what the government did to him.

Obviously we don't have a guilty detection machine so if cops go around lying and being assholes to everyone they encounter, thinking they might be guilty, innocent people will have their rights violated. It's not about protecting the guilty, rather the innocent.

I think the well known documentary "Making a Murderer" shows very well how innocent people can get hurt when the cops lie and attempt to make a conviction out of nothing.
 
calamity said:
Ok, here we go. Let's explore an area where I diverge immensely from my friends on the Left, and even most of those on the Right. I like that cops can lie.

Ok, **** you. I live in the real world. So, if some piece of **** has someone hidden in a box somewhere, I like it when cops lie to get him to spill his guts. Whatever it takes. If police have to manipulate the garbage bag to get him to talk, I really could not give a **** about his rights. **** him and the horse he rode in on.
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That sounds lovely, but:
https://www.innocenceproject.org/causes/false-confessions-admissions/

more than 1 out of 4 people wrongfully convicted but later exonerated by DNA evidence made a false confession or incriminating statement.
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The whole "ends justifies the means" attitude in police interrogations leads directly to the imprisonment of innocent people.
 
calamity said:
Ok, here we go. Let's explore an area where I diverge immensely from my friends on the Left, and even most of those on the Right. I like that cops can lie.

Ok, **** you. I live in the real world. So, if some piece of **** has someone hidden in a box somewhere, I like it when cops lie to get him to spill his guts. Whatever it takes. If police have to manipulate the garbage bag to get him to talk, I really could not give a **** about his rights. **** him and the horse he rode in on.
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You do realize that leads to a copious amount of false confessions
 
RabidAlpaca said:
The problem is nobody actually knows ahead of time if suspect X is actually guilty and has someone in a box somewhere. If we had a magical machine that told us he definitely is guilty, few people would care what the government did to him.

Obviously we don't have a guilty detection machine so if cops go around lying and being assholes to everyone they encounter, thinking they might be guilty, innocent people will have their rights violated. It's not about protecting the guilty, rather the innocent.

I think the well known documentary "Making a Murderer" shows very well how innocent people can get hurt when the cops lie and attempt to make a conviction out of nothing.
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No one on "making a murderer" is innocent
 
Crovax said:
No one on "making a murderer" is innocent
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In the same sense that nobody on the planet earth is technically innocent, yes. Cops who aren't corrupt as **** don't take the mentally handicapped teenage nephew of the man who's suing their department for millions out of school without a parent or lawyer and walk him through their version of his confession, lying and telling him he did it and can't leave until he admits it.

There were about a thousand miscarriages of justice committed by the police in that town during three different Avery cases. They also had an extremely, extremely good motive to attack the family and had every opportunity at their disposal to do it. Avery had them dead to rights on framing him and putting him unjustly in prison for a decade and they lied, doctored evidence and conspired to discredit him to save their own asses. Nobody days before a multi-million dollar settlement murders a random person on his front lawn.

I guess we'll file you under the "the cops can't be wrong, they can lie and break the law as long as they get who they think is responsible" crowd.
 
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RabidAlpaca said:
In the same sense that nobody on the planet earth is technically innocent, yes. Cops who aren't corrupt as **** don't take the mentally handicapped teenage nephew of the man who's suing their department for millions out of school without a parent or lawyer and walk him through their version of his confession, lying and telling him he did it and can't leave until he admits it.

There were about a thousand miscarriages of justice committed by the police in that town during three different Avery cases. They also had an extremely, extremely good motive to attack the family and had every opportunity at their disposal to do it. Avery had them dead to rights on framing him and putting him unjustly in prison for a decade and they lied, doctored evidence and conspired to discredit him to save their own asses. Nobody days before a multi-million dollar settlement murders a random person on his front lawn.

I guess we'll file you under the "the cops can't be wrong, they can lie and break the law as long as they get who they think is responsible" crowd.
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I said no one and that included the cops if you somehow misunderstood. They railroaded that kid into confessing but Avery most certainly did kill that second woman and bullied his nephew into being an accessory


Also to your quote "Nobody days before a multi-million dollar settlement murders a random person on his front lawn" its pretty clear that you dont have a clue about the case

She wasnt a random person. Avery knew her and requested her personally and even used his sisters name to trick her into coming out there because she was afraid of him and had no intention of being near him
 
calamity said:
Ok, here we go. Let's explore an area where I diverge immensely from my friends on the Left, and even most of those on the Right. I like that cops can lie.

Ok, **** you. I live in the real world. So, if some piece of **** has someone hidden in a box somewhere, I like it when cops lie to get him to spill his guts. Whatever it takes. If police have to manipulate the garbage bag to get him to talk, I really could not give a **** about his rights. **** him and the horse he rode in on.
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The ends NEVER justify the means.
 
This is one of those things that can't be blanketed. It must be weighted on a case by case basis. And luckily for us, we have a judicial system designed just for that.
 
calamity said:
Ok, here we go. Let's explore an area where I diverge immensely from my friends on the Left, and even most of those on the Right. I like that cops can lie.

Ok, **** you. I live in the real world. So, if some piece of **** has someone hidden in a box somewhere, I like it when cops lie to get him to spill his guts. Whatever it takes. If police have to manipulate the garbage bag to get him to talk, I really could not give a **** about his rights. **** him and the horse he rode in on.
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I completely disagree. I've seen too many cases where people were coerced into false confessions due to tactics like that.
 
americanwoman said:
I completely disagree. I've seen too many cases where people were coerced into false confessions due to tactics like that.
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If it's a false confession, the confession will not lead them to the victim or her body. I refer here strictly to tricking criminals into providing evidence the cops don't know about.
 
calamity said:
I really could not give a **** about his rights.
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If you don't care about his rights, this hypothetical criminal you've deemed to be a POS despite not having been proven guilty, then you don't care about anyone's rights.

americanwoman said:
I completely disagree. I've seen too many cases where people were coerced into false confessions due to tactics like that.
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I've seen far more instances of people copping to a plea deal for a crime they were innocent of because they were scared of the trumped up penalties if they went to trial.
 
Mycroft said:
The ends NEVER justify the means.
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A victim is in a box. In 4 hours she will run out of air and die. Cops are onto a suspect. They need him to disclose the location of the box. Telling him a few lies to get him to reveal where she is would certainly be justified.
 
Spartacus FPV said:
If you don't care about his rights, this hypothetical criminal you've deemed to be a POS despite not having been proven guilty, then you don't care about anyone's rights.



I've seen far more instances of people copping to a plea deal for a crime they were innocent of because they were scared of the trumped up penalties if they went to trial.
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I'm not talking about beating him with a rubber hose, just tricking him to reveal evidence that only the perp would know about. So, by default, he would not be an innocent person, you know since he knows where the body is buried (so to speak).
 
calamity said:
Ok, here we go. Let's explore an area where I diverge immensely from my friends on the Left, and even most of those on the Right. I like that cops can lie.

Ok, **** you. I live in the real world. So, if some piece of **** has someone hidden in a box somewhere, I like it when cops lie to get him to spill his guts. Whatever it takes. If police have to manipulate the garbage bag to get him to talk, I really could not give a **** about his rights. **** him and the horse he rode in on.
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Muster the militia to reduce crime. The End, justifies the Means.
 
calamity said:
I'm not talking about beating him with a rubber hose, just tricking him to reveal evidence that only the perp would know about. So, by default, he would not be an innocent person, you know since he knows where the body is buried (so to speak).
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I do not accept the premise, how is this "known"? If its KNOWN then you can prove it, like in a court of law.
 
calamity said:
If it's a false confession, the confession will not lead them to the victim or her body. I refer here strictly to tricking criminals into providing evidence the cops don't know about.
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This just seems like a slippery slope. You are already calling them criminals but have they already been convicted of the crime? Or they are just suspected of it, in which case they wouldn't really be criminals but suspects.
 
americanwoman said:
This just seems like a slippery slope. You are already calling them criminals but have they already been convicted of the crime? Or they are just suspected of it, in which case they wouldn't really be criminals but suspects.
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They are criminals when they divulge information to the police that only the criminal would know.
 
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