Page 14 of 14 FirstFirst ... 4121314
Results 131 to 138 of 138

Thread: Strange case in Houston

  1. #131
    Professor

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:45 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    2,225

    Re: Strange case in Houston

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    ....We don't need to know.. what we need to know.. and what we know is the AMOUNT of time that the deputy had to make such a decision.. and was AT LEAST 9- 10 seconds or longer....
    talk about "assuming knowledge not in evidence".. now you are concocting "what he might have".

    Wrong.. we know after the fact that lethal force was not necessary... BECAUSE we know what was shown in those few seconds.. 9-10 by your account... ended up being exactly what was there. Throughout the whole episode.. it was clear that lethal force was not necessary.

    Face it.. there is no reasonable way that the officer was in imminent threat of death or grave bodily harm.

    You recognize that I or any other citizen cannot legally shoot a person just because they are walking toward us and not following our commands to stop.

    And that's because its not a reasonable threat of imminent death or grave bodily harm.
    Your presumptions are, so far, "informed" only by you unsupported claims about what an officer can and cannot do under specific circumstances. But as the only person in this thread that has had to draw a gun on a suspect (when I was a security officer) your assertions about whether or not the cop should feel imminent grave harm is a demonstration of your own inexperienced cluelessness.

    In the video there was 10-12 seconds between the start of the clip to the shooting. The suspect started his approach a few seconds into the video and arrived at the police car within 5 seconds, where the policeman had been standing. The policeman, by now gun drawn, walked backwards, around the back of a moving car, for 4 or 5 seconds more. The man continued his advance as the cop retreated to the other side of the car, the suspect was shot within 5' to 7'.

    I have been in a similar circumstance. Once you are forced to draw your gun on an advancing suspect you are acutely aware that should he get within grappling distance you will be fighting him to keep the gun - if you lose, you likely die. (You are also aware that you don't know what is behind you, and walking backwards with a gun in front of you is slow and clumsy).

    In my case, the suspect did advance even after I yelled at him to stop and I backed off... when he got 6-8' away I screamed at him to stop and sit...lucky for both of us he "woke up" and did so (while he started screaming that I was going to shoot him).

    Absolutely I was in fear of grave harm...there was no time to holster the gun and secure it with a strap. Once drawn, a policeman has no choice if the suspect won't stop his advance or obey orders.

    Unless there was a procedural mistake by the cop (prior to the gun being drawn), this shooting was justified.
    Last edited by maxparrish; 04-18-18 at 04:20 PM.

  2. #132
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:26 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    20,474

    Re: Strange case in Houston

    Quote Originally Posted by longview View Post
    It is difficult to figure what was going through the mind of the Deputy, and only he can put together all the pieces that
    ended with him shooting Thomas. We do not know at which point in the narrow time window, he decided that "this is a possible threat!"
    We also do not know why Thomas was provoking altercations with strangers in the street.
    We are not going to agree, on weather the Deputies actions were justified, or not, and our opinions don't matter.
    What matters is if the investigation finds his actions justified, The preliminary finding in the field was that the shooting was justified.
    Actually the opinions of the public do matter.. because ultimately.. we are the ones that make the officers responsible for their actions.. and if we abdicate that responsibility we will end up with abuse of authority.
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
    Vegas Giants: "Sounds fantastic!"

  3. #133
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:26 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    20,474

    Re: Strange case in Houston

    Quote Originally Posted by maxparrish View Post
    Your presumptions are, so far, "informed" only by you unsupported claims about what an officer can and cannot do under specific circumstances. But as the only person in this thread that has had to draw a gun on a suspect (when I was a security officer) your assertions about whether or not the cop should feel imminent grave harm is a demonstration of your own inexperienced cluelessness.
    .
    oops.. sorry.. I was a reserve police officer. I have had to draw on a suspect. I have also used tasers, and pepper spray and have had to use bare hands to subdue people. My assertions of when a cop should feel they are imminent grave harm is not ONLY based on experience. BUT also based on the law and common sense.

    I have been in a similar circumstance. Once you are forced to draw your gun on an advancing suspect you are acutely aware that should he get within grappling distance you will be fighting him to keep the gun - if you lose, you likely die. (You are also aware that you don't know what is behind you, and walking backwards with a gun in front of you is slow and clumsy).
    Bingo.. thus you should only draw your weapon when you have already realized that deadly force is imminent. The situation did not require the officer to draw his firearm.

    Face it..in the same scenario.. if I was just an ordinary citizen.. and I drew my weapon.. I would likely be charged with a crime of brandishing a firearm etc... in the same scenario.. if I as an ordinary citizen had shot a fellow walking toward me refusing to stop when I commanded.. I would be charged with manslaughter.

    Why? Because the scenario did not call for deadly force.

    Absolutely I was in fear of grave harm...there was no time to holster the gun and secure it with a strap. Once drawn, a policeman has no choice if the suspect won't stop his advance or obey orders.
    Which means that an officer must be responsible when he/she draws their weapon. In this scenario.. the officer went to deadly force.. despite having other options available for a suspect that was unarmed, that was walking toward him, and that apparently had his pants around his ankles.

    In my case, the suspect did advance even after I yelled at him to stop and I backed off... when he got 6-8' away I screamed at him to stop and sit...lucky for both of us he "woke up" and did so (while he started screaming that I was going to shoot him).

    Absolutely I was in fear of grave harm...there was no time to holster the gun and secure it with a strap.
    I don't know the details of your scenario.. so perhaps you were justified in drawing your weapon. But the point is.. if you examine the bold... your own actions are what in some part placed you in grave danger, Drawing your firearm is what possibly upped the ante. A suspect might have thought your intent was to harm THEM.. and thus they would be justified in protecting themselves.
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
    Vegas Giants: "Sounds fantastic!"

  4. #134
    Sage
    longview's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Texas
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:16 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    17,136

    Re: Strange case in Houston

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    Actually the opinions of the public do matter.. because ultimately.. we are the ones that make the officers responsible for their actions.. and if we abdicate that responsibility we will end up with abuse of authority.
    There are very real examples of police overstepping and misusing their authority, this simply is not one of them.
    To hold this up as an example, weakens the light that should be shined on the very real cases.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbie...oting_incident

  5. #135
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:26 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    20,474

    Re: Strange case in Houston

    Quote Originally Posted by longview View Post
    There are very real examples of police overstepping and misusing their authority, this simply is not one of them.
    To hold this up as an example, weakens the light that should be shined on the very real cases.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbie...oting_incident
    Actually it is a very real example of the police overstepping their bounds.. and if we held police accountable.. we would have LESS of the more egregious cases.

    the egregious cases start with a culture among the police where overreaction is not only permissible.. its fostered.

    We have created a culture where the average citizen is held to a higher standard than a trained police officer.
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
    Vegas Giants: "Sounds fantastic!"

  6. #136
    Professor

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:45 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    2,225

    Re: Strange case in Houston

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    oops.. sorry.. I was a reserve police officer. I have had to draw on a suspect. I have also used tasers, and pepper spray and have had to use bare hands to subdue people. My assertions of when a cop should feel they are imminent grave harm is not ONLY based on experience. BUT also based on the law and common sense.



    Bingo.. thus you should only draw your weapon when you have already realized that deadly force is imminent. The situation did not require the officer to draw his firearm.

    Face it..in the same scenario.. if I was just an ordinary citizen.. and I drew my weapon.. I would likely be charged with a crime of brandishing a firearm etc... in the same scenario.. if I as an ordinary citizen had shot a fellow walking toward me refusing to stop when I commanded.. I would be charged with manslaughter.

    Why? Because the scenario did not call for deadly force.

    Which means that an officer must be responsible when he/she draws their weapon. In this scenario.. the officer went to deadly force.. despite having other options available for a suspect that was unarmed, that was walking toward him, and that apparently had his pants around his ankles.

    I don't know the details of your scenario.. so perhaps you were justified in drawing your weapon. But the point is.. if you examine the bold... your own actions are what in some part placed you in grave danger, Drawing your firearm is what possibly upped the ante. A suspect might have thought your intent was to harm THEM.. and thus they would be justified in protecting themselves.
    If we are to speak of "common sense", then in my case it was common sense that when a guy 6' 2" guy, with wall to wall muscle, started to panic and pleading to let him go (after the police had been called) while he started advancing on me in spite of my instructions to stay back that I had no choice but to either risk being grabbed and hurt or killed (I was 5 8" at 150lbs) or draw my weapon and warn him to stay back...after three warnings and my own back-pedaling he finally did.

    None of us have heard what was said by the police officer to the suspect and the suspect reached the police car with a near normal gait. You can't out walk someone moving backwards blindly. None the less the suspect chased him around the end of the lurching car.

    As I stated, unless there was a mandated procedure he did not follow prior to drawing his weapon (e.g. if he had, or was expected to, draw a taser or pepper spray) then I cannot fault him. And, as we did not have tasers or mace in the 1970s, I have no idea if they can be drawn as quickly as gun.
    Last edited by maxparrish; 04-19-18 at 05:01 PM.

  7. #137
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:26 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    20,474

    Re: Strange case in Houston

    Quote Originally Posted by maxparrish View Post
    If we are to speak of "common sense", then in my case it was common sense that when a guy 6' 2" guy, with wall to wall muscle, started to panic and pleading to let him go (after the police had been called) while he started advancing on me in spite of my instructions to stay back that I had no choice but to either risk being grabbed and hurt or killed (I was 5 8" at 150lbs) or draw my weapon and warn him to stay back...after three warnings and my own back-pedaling he finally did.

    None of us have heard what was said by the police officer to the suspect and the suspect reached the police car with a near normal gait. You can't out walk someone moving backwards blindly. None the less the suspect chased him around the end of the lurching car.

    As I stated, unless there was a mandated procedure he did not follow prior to drawing his weapon (e.g. if he had, or was expected to, draw a taser or pepper spray) then I cannot fault him. And, as we did not have tasers or mace in the 1970s, I have no idea if they can be drawn as quickly as gun.
    Sure.. was there a huge disparity in size between the officer in this case and the suspect ?

    Was the guy in this case "wall to wall muscle"? no.. it does not appear to be

    Did the officer in question have access to non lethal deterrent? Yes

    Was he running at the officer? No.. a near normal gait is what you posted...

    The suspect did not "chase".. he walked toward the officer.. not "chasing".

    As I stated, unless there was a mandated procedure he did not follow prior to drawing his weapon (e.g. if he had, or was expected to, draw a taser or pepper spray) then I cannot fault him
    Crap.. he is mandated to use common sense and good judgment.

    "mandated procedure".. yeah.. that's nuts. How would that even work?... "okay.. if you see that they have a 20 pound advantage on you.. you draw your pistol..".. but if you have a 30 pound advantage on them.. then you draw your taser.. " if its 50 pound difference you draw your pepper spray".. if its 60 pound difference you use your baton.. if its...

    If they are solid muscle then.. but if they are mostly flab.. then.. Sorry but that expectation just didn;t work.

    Officers are legitimately supposed to obey the law and exercise good judgment and reasonably believe that they are in imminent danger of grave bodily harm or death before using deadly force.

    this officer did not exercise good judgment in any way.. and he ended up killing an unarmed man needlessly.
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
    Vegas Giants: "Sounds fantastic!"

  8. #138
    Tenacious
    Lursa's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Outside Seattle
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:48 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    39,684

    Re: Strange case in Houston

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    Actually it is a very real example of the police overstepping their bounds.. and if we held police accountable.. we would have LESS of the more egregious cases.

    the egregious cases start with a culture among the police where overreaction is not only permissible.. its fostered.

    We have created a culture where the average citizen is held to a higher standard than a trained police officer.
    It is an example of where the cop *had other options* had he chosen them. IMO, he was never in the position where he had no retreat from imminent lethal harm and the suspect was also not observed to be an immediate threat to the public. I will say we didnt see and hear everything but that's what I saw.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wan View Post
    Point to the tax codes, of any kind, that say the actual passage:"abortion is not murder".
    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

Page 14 of 14 FirstFirst ... 4121314

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •