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Why the Prevalence of Lying by Police is a Problem for the Innocent

Plea deals are the problem - over 90% of criminal cases are "resolved" without a trial. The "just us" system is totally out of control. IMHO, what needs to happen is that the accused should have the right (option) to force the state to prove (or drop) the initial charges with no option to reduce them before or during trial (no more lesser included offense nonsense).

Upon arrest, the charges are too often made artificially high (it drives up crime stats and makes bail and fine amounts higher) then a plea "deal" is offered to some lower charge and/or sentence to clear (close) the case without the state ever having to prove anything.

If every case went to trial then the "just us" system would instantly collapse letting well over half (75%?) of all alleged criminals walk free for lack of offering them a speedy trial. This change, IMHO, would show that crime is far lower that the official FBI statistics (based on arrests) show. Plea "deals" are often nothing more than a shakedown.
 
**** the police.
 
Plea deals are the problem - over 90% of criminal cases are "resolved" without a trial. The "just us" system is totally out of control. IMHO, what needs to happen is that the accused should have the right (option) to force the state to prove (or drop) the initial charges with no option to reduce them before or during trial (no more lesser included offense nonsense).

Upon arrest, the charges are too often made artificially high (it drives up crime stats and makes bail and fine amounts higher) then a plea "deal" is offered to some lower charge and/or sentence to clear (close) the case without the state ever having to prove anything.

If every case went to trial then the "just us" system would instantly collapse letting well over half (75%?) of all alleged criminals walk free for lack of offering them a speedy trial. This change, IMHO, would show that crime is far lower that the official FBI statistics (based on arrests) show. Plea "deals" are often nothing more than a shakedown.

Plea deals AND really lousy laws like the drug prohibition.

IMO, poor laws cause more harm than plea deals.
 
Plea deals AND really lousy laws like the drug prohibition.

IMO, poor laws cause more harm than plea deals.

I am not a fan of many "war on drugs" laws but mostly because marijuana is considered on par or above meth, cocaine and heroin as far as being dangerous. I can't envision selling meth, cocaine or heroin OTC in convenience or grocery stores that sell beer but could easily see marijuana being sold that way.

People have died from alcohol overdose but I have yet to see a case of a marijuana overdose causing death. When the government flat out lies to folks about the severe danger of marijuana use then that certainly may lead some to assume that meth, cocaine and heroin are also generally harmless recreational drugs.
 
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I am not a fan of many "war on drugs" laws but mostly because marijuana is considered on par or above meth, cocaine and heroin. I can't envision selling meth, cocaine or heroin OTC in convenience or grocery stores that sell beer but could easily see marijuana being sold that way.

People have died from alcohol overdose but I have yet to see a case of a marijuana overdose causing death. When the government flat out lies to folks about the severe danger of marijuana use then that certainly may lead some to assume that meth, cocaine and heroin are also generally harmless recreational drugs.

So very true.

FYI, pharmaceutical grade cocaine and methedrine and methamphetamine have been sold on prescription for decades. And clinical documentation of maintained opiate users like William Halstead M.D are more than a century old. Properly maintained opiate users, including with needles, can and do live ordinary and productive lives.
 
So very true.

FYI, pharmaceutical grade cocaine and methedrine and methamphetamine have been sold on prescription for decades. And clinical documentation of maintained opiate users like William Halstead M.D are more than a century old. Properly maintained opiate users, including with needles, can and do live ordinary and productive lives.

Hmm... who is going to fund this "proper maintenance" for recreational drug users? I keep hearing the alternative suggested that we should start treating recreational drug abuse, and the resulting addiction, as a medical/mental health issue funded at public expense. As of now, we don't even treat tobacco users as living ordinary lives and charge them 50% more for medical care insurance.
 
Hmm... who is going to fund this "proper maintenance" for recreational drug users? I keep hearing the alternative suggested that we should start treating recreational drug abuse, and the resulting addiction, as a medical/mental health issue funded at public expense. As of now, we don't even treat tobacco users as living ordinary lives and charge them 50% more for medical care insurance.

Regarding maintenance of addicts, I mentioned only the opiates, and offered the case of William Halstead of Johns Hopkins. Dr. Hopkins funded his own maintenance program, but I don't know how well that would fly in today's world.

My only point is that such maintenance does work. Most humans do not want to commit suicide. The ones who want to usually do, and they don't have to use a fatal dose of drugs to do it. Most people prefer to live an ordinary and productive life. Nobody really WANTS to be a homeless junkie using other needles.

In reality, most people do not want to use needles at all, even diabetics. It's a small sample of people, and funding would not be much IMO.
 
Regarding maintenance of addicts, I mentioned only the opiates, and offered the case of William Halstead of Johns Hopkins. Dr. Hopkins funded his own maintenance program, but I don't know how well that would fly in today's world.

My only point is that such maintenance does work. Most humans do not want to commit suicide. The ones who want to usually do, and they don't have to use a fatal dose of drugs to do it. Most people prefer to live an ordinary and productive life. Nobody really WANTS to be a homeless junkie using other needles.

In reality, most people do not want to use needles at all, even diabetics. It's a small sample of people, and funding would not be much IMO.

When the taxpayers start funding my bar tab then I will agree to fund heroin users.
 
A while back, a colleague had a suppression hearing. The cop was trying to explain why he had reasonable suspicion for a Terry stop. What's he say? Well, the suspect was making furtive movements.

That's all he'd say. Finally, the lawyer took a risk and asked him to define using words what a "furtive movement" is. Cop couldn't. Motion to suppress granted.





There's a common set of lies. They must get this in training, or from each other, because they show up in every case. "Oh, the car passenger had one shoulder down and in my training/experience, that means he's hiding something under the seat", or "they were looking around a lot" as consciousness of guilt, or "he was walking with one arm stiff" to suggest he had a gun. Etc. But there's never any other proof. The judge/jury almost always believes the cops, so they always tell the same lies in the same words.

And, hey, the suspect did have whatever it was (unless planted, which is rather rarer) or else there wouldn't be a case. So people don't really worry about it.





Body cams on all cops would sure help clear some of that up.
 
A while back, a colleague had a suppression hearing. The cop was trying to explain why he had reasonable suspicion for a Terry stop. What's he say? Well, the suspect was making furtive movements.

That's all he'd say. Finally, the lawyer took a risk and asked him to define using words what a "furtive movement" is. Cop couldn't. Motion to suppress granted.





There's a common set of lies. They must get this in training, or from each other, because they show up in every case. "Oh, the car passenger had one shoulder down and in my training/experience, that means he's hiding something under the seat", or "they were looking around a lot" as consciousness of guilt, or "he was walking with one arm stiff" to suggest he had a gun. Etc. But there's never any other proof. The judge/jury almost always believes the cops, so they always tell the same lies in the same words.

And, hey, the suspect did have whatever it was (unless planted, which is rather rarer) or else there wouldn't be a case. So people don't really worry about it.





Body cams on all cops would sure help clear some of that up.

What if the cameras showed cops actually doing the right things or am I espousing a conspiracy theory that cops aren't all exactly what you know they are?
 
What if the cameras showed cops actually doing the right things

Then as I said, "Body cams on all cops would sure help clear some of that up."




am I espousing a conspiracy theory that cops aren't all exactly what you know they are?

What?

I didn't reply to you in this thread. What are you referring to and what the hell are you talking about?
 
Then as I said, "Body cams on all cops would sure help clear some of that up."






What?

I didn't reply to you in this thread. What are you referring to and what the hell are you talking about?

Would I be completely wrong of me not view cops in exactly the same way you do and/or to say that not all cops are liars and a lot actually do good things?
 
Would I be completely wrong of me not view cops in exactly the same way you do and/or to say that not all cops are liars and a lot actually do good things?

Again, what the hell are you talking about? I never said all cops are liars.

Also again, I don't know what you're even referring to. I didn't respond to you in this thread. Where does this assumption that I would say you were espousing a "conspiracy theory" come from?
 
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Would I be completely wrong of me not view cops in exactly the same way you do and/or to say that not all cops are liars and a lot actually do good things?

Well, cops do work on the premise that everyone they stop or deal with is guilty....
 
Again, what the hell are you talking about? I never said all cops are liars.

Also again, I don't know what you're even referring to. I didn't respond to you in this thread. Where does this assumption that I would say you were espousing a "conspiracy theory" come from?

Eh, just today when I questioned what was supposedly known, I was accused of believing in a conspiracy. To quote the post here wouldn't be appropriate, though.
 
What if the cameras showed cops actually doing the right things or am I espousing a conspiracy theory that cops aren't all exactly what you know they are?

When cameras prove the cops to be innocent, they use them big time, and that's very good IMO.

When camera footage tends to disprove the official story, it is hidden away, suppressed in the name of national security. That's bad, but sometimes appears to be a pattern of behavior.
 
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