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Thread: U.S. judge rules it would be ‘tyranny’ to force Christian to bake cake for lesbian ‘marriage’

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    Re: U.S. judge rules it would be ‘tyranny’ to force Christian to bake cake for lesbian ‘marriage’

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    I can't disagree with that. At the same time, the blame cannot be place on a single party.
    When one party, supposedly Christians, are crying "tyranny" because they have to follow Jesus' message to love your neighbor as you would yourself, there is a serious problem.

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    Re: U.S. judge rules it would be ‘tyranny’ to force Christian to bake cake for lesbian ‘marriage’

    Quote Originally Posted by code1211 View Post
    There was a bakery in the town in which I grew up that made cakes with what appeared to be stool of excrement on the top. Several poop shaped squirts of chocolate frosting.

    They were called "S--- Cakes" . The writing on the cake was generally something like: "You got promoted? Well, big S---!"

    There was another bakery that did not make or sell these cakes. Should the second bakery have been forced by the government to make these cakes even if they were offensive to the bakers working there?
    Not the same...to be the same.. the second bakery would also have to make the cakes.. but simply not for certain types of people.

    The bakery makes WEDDING cakes.

    They don;t find wedding cakes offensive... they find the people that wanted to buy one.. "offensive".
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
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    Re: U.S. judge rules it would be ‘tyranny’ to force Christian to bake cake for lesbian ‘marriage’

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    The airport threatened to pull their cab permits at the airport.
    While the cab company must make reasonable accommodations
    the cab drivers have no options.

    This lady on the other hand owns her own company.
    This is the very case before the SCOTUS right now.

    I find it interesting that this judge ruled this way. He is the first to do so.
    We will see what the SCOTUS says but i have a feeling it will be a 5-4 decision.

    The baker from CO was arguing the same thing a 1st amendment free speech issue on their
    right to not make a cake.

    If the cake was already made then of course she must sell it to them, but just as you cannot force an artist
    to paint a painting they might find offensive. The same applies here since the cake is not made.
    But they aren;t forcing an artist to make something offensive. The bakery makes wedding cakes.

    the bakers have decided they find the PEOPLE buying the cake are offensive.


    All said and done... its just a frigging cake. How in the world can anyone think that a bakery baking a cake for a lesbian couple in anyway violates their Christianity?
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
    Vegas Giants: "Sounds fantastic!"

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    Re: U.S. judge rules it would be ‘tyranny’ to force Christian to bake cake for lesbian ‘marriage’

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    But they aren;t forcing an artist to make something offensive. The bakery makes wedding cakes.

    the bakers have decided they find the PEOPLE buying the cake are offensive.
    All said and done... its just a frigging cake. How in the world can anyone think that a bakery baking a cake for a lesbian couple in anyway violates their Christianity?
    artists makes painting yet they still can choose what they paint and don't paint.
    based on what they find offensive.

    No they have found their wedding not be something they believe in.
    Just as you can't get a painter to paint something that they wouldn't agree with.

    You will find that most christians do not believe in gay marriage.
    Forcing them to do something that would support or celebrate that marriage
    could in fact run into constitutional issues if on anything free speech.

    that is why a similar case is before the SCOTUS.

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    Re: U.S. judge rules it would be ‘tyranny’ to force Christian to bake cake for lesbian ‘marriage’

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    artists makes painting yet they still can choose what they paint and don't paint.
    based on what they find offensive.

    No they have found their wedding not be something they believe in.
    Just as you can't get a painter to paint something that they wouldn't agree with.

    You will find that most christians do not believe in gay marriage.
    Forcing them to do something that would support or celebrate that marriage
    could in fact run into constitutional issues if on anything free speech.

    that is why a similar case is before the SCOTUS.
    right.. and if they find nudes offensive.. they can choose not to do nudes.

    BUT they cannot decide that they do nudes.. but just not for black people because they find them offensive.

    That's the point.

    they make wedding cakes. And thus they don;t find wedding cakes offensive.. they find the people they are making them for offensive.
    Forcing them to do something that would support or celebrate that marriage
    What a crock. Baking a cake as a business is not "supporting or celebrating a marriage".

    I hope a lawyer is smart enough to realize this and brings this up in the scotus case. I am pretty sure that the bakery cannot show that they went to the trouble to make sure that all the OTHER weddings they made cake for were up to Christian standards. I am very much sure that the bakery made cakes for people that were adulterers, atheists, Jewish ceremonies, maybe wiccan ceremonies, and all sorts of weddings that did not meet "Christian standards".

    IF the bakery was so concerned about following Christian values in who they baked for.. then there should be evidence that they evaluated each and every couple that they made cakes for.. to decide whether they fit into the Christian values or not.

    But I doubt they did...

    Free speech does not allow you to be an a hole when it comes to public accommodations and business. Otherwise the bakery could put up a sign that says.. we don't serve Negroes.
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
    Vegas Giants: "Sounds fantastic!"

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    Re: U.S. judge rules it would be ‘tyranny’ to force Christian to bake cake for lesbian ‘marriage’

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    right.. and if they find nudes offensive.. they can choose not to do nudes.

    BUT they cannot decide that they do nudes.. but just not for black people because they find them offensive.

    That's the point.

    they make wedding cakes. And thus they don;t find wedding cakes offensive.. they find the people they are making them for offensive.


    What a crock. Baking a cake as a business is not "supporting or celebrating a marriage".

    I hope a lawyer is smart enough to realize this and brings this up in the scotus case. I am pretty sure that the bakery cannot show that they went to the trouble to make sure that all the OTHER weddings they made cake for were up to Christian standards. I am very much sure that the bakery made cakes for people that were adulterers, atheists, Jewish ceremonies, maybe wiccan ceremonies, and all sorts of weddings that did not meet "Christian standards".

    IF the bakery was so concerned about following Christian values in who they baked for.. then there should be evidence that they evaluated each and every couple that they made cakes for.. to decide whether they fit into the Christian values or not.

    But I doubt they did...

    Free speech does not allow you to be an a hole when it comes to public accommodations and business. Otherwise the bakery could put up a sign that says.. we don't serve Negroes.
    actually they can choose to do whatever nudes they want. this is not an all or nothing game that you make it out to be.
    they don't have to find wedding cakes offensive you are confusing issues on purpose.

    Baking a cake would be supporting that marriage or sending a message of approval.

    Again we are talking about free speech and whether or not you can force someone to create something that doesn't exist.
    so far the answer to that question is no you can't.

    No the argument is that you can't force someone to lend their talents and or skills and force them to make something that they do not support.
    this happens all the time for various reasons.

    Not serving negros is against the law that is not what they are doing nor are they refusing to serve gay people.
    they could have bought any cake in the store they wanted to.

    The question is does a business owner have the right to artistic expression. the answer in this case is yes they do.
    can someone force another person to create and artistic piece for something the artist might object too so far the answer is no.

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    Re: U.S. judge rules it would be ‘tyranny’ to force Christian to bake cake for lesbian ‘marriage’

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    BAKERSFIELD, California, February 8, 2018 (LifeSiteNews) – It would be a violation of free speech for a Christian baker to be forced to make a same-sex "wedding" cake, a California judge ruled on Monday.

    Cathy Miller owns Tastries Bakery, where 40 percent of her business is wedding cakes, many of which she personally designs. Last August two lesbians asked her to design a special cake to celebrate their “marriage,” and Miller politely redirected them to an accommodating competitor.

    Nevertheless, as is the well-established LGBT pattern, the lesbians sued Miller anyway. They filed a complaint with the state Department of Fair Employment and Housing, accusing Miller of violating California’s Unruh Civil Rights Act, which criminalizes denying service based on sexual orientation. Oral arguments were heard Friday.

    Judge Lampe said that to force a Christian to create a cake that celebrates something against their religion is "violence."

    snip...

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/th...-major-victory
    There are no social morals for free on a for-profit basis in public accommodation.

    Not for-profit, is the moral highground Merchants in Commerce should take, when asking for that, "special dispensation".

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    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: U.S. judge rules it would be ‘tyranny’ to force Christian to bake cake for lesbian ‘marriage’

    Ill say the same thing in this thread I said in the other


    Its really simple, religious rights and freedoms do not allow me to break the law and or violate the rights of others. In the end sexual orientation will be nationally protected because equal rights based on sexual orientation, equal protection laws, anti discrimination laws and public accommodation laws dont violate the first amendment nor do they violate my personal rights in any way what so ever.

    BS like this was tried with minorities and women in the past. It failed because falsely trying to use religion in that way is an illogical and retarded claim that held no merit and the same will happen again. its a total farce that is as transparent as glass. THis is why nobody can ever answer the question of "as a christian myself what religious rights and freedoms do I factually lose because of equal protection, anti discrimination and or public accommodation laws". The answer is NONE, a few claim otherwise but hilariously can never state and prove any.


    Reading more about this and now I like his ruling even more. Besides the fact it will pushed up the chain and be overturned he made a specific comment I thought was important.
    Lampe cautioned that freedom of religion does not give businesses a right to refuse service to groups protected by the Unruh Civil Rights Act in other circumstances, the Bakersfield Californian reported.
    so he is basically saying in his opinion this is only ok because he doesn't feel sexual orientation is included currently. And while theres no facts that make his views wrong (only misguided) eventually thats how this is going to turn out. gender and orientation will be protected under sex by precedent.

    In the end Equality and rights will win just like they have been.
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    Yes, gay people absolutely have the right to infringe on other people's religious rights. See the entire civil rights movement.
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    Re: U.S. judge rules it would be ‘tyranny’ to force Christian to bake cake for lesbian ‘marriage’

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    actually they can choose to do whatever nudes they want. this is not an all or nothing game that you make it out to be.
    they don't have to find wedding cakes offensive you are confusing issues on purpose.

    .
    No sir you are confusing the issue. It is all or nothing. either wedding cakes are not something they provide.. or they are.

    if they provide them.. its not the cake that they are offended by.. its the PERSON ORDERING IT.

    Baking a cake would be supporting that marriage or sending a message of approval.
    A business baking a cake? in no way would it be supporting that marriage or sending a message of approval. Or are you contending that the bakers interviewed each and every applicant for a wedding cake so that the bakers could determine whether the wedding was up to Christian standards. I hardly doubt that.
    Again we are talking about free speech and whether or not you can force someone to create something that doesn't exist.
    No we are not.. we are talking about whether a BUSINESS can discriminate against its patrons based on religion, creed, race or sexual orientation under the guise of "freedom of speech"
    Not serving negros is against the law that is not what they are doing nor are they refusing to serve gay people.
    .
    Yes its against the law and that's the question here. .. and they are refusing to serve gay people when they refuse to make a wedding cake.

    they could have bought any cake in the store they wanted to.
    As long its not a wedding cake.

    The question is does a business owner have the right to artistic expression. the answer in this case is yes they do.
    Nice try.. its not a question of artistic expression. I would bet that the gay couple would be selecting from a book of cake examples that the business had already made. this had nothing to do with artistic expression.. and everything to do with discriminating against the gay couple.
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
    Vegas Giants: "Sounds fantastic!"

  10. #90
    U mad bro?

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    Re: U.S. judge rules it would be ‘tyranny’ to force Christian to bake cake for lesbian ‘marriage’

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeptic Bob View Post
    I don’t care about the religious angle. I just don’t think somebody should be forced to makes something they don’t want to make, be it for gays, straights, atheists, Christians, blacks, whites, or whomever.
    I have to agree with you here. I've owned a small business before, and I certainly tried to never turn away customers. But, I didn't want anyone telling me who I had to business with. Businesses should be allowed to refuse service to whomever they choose. While I don't agree with the baker's reasoning, I understand they should have the right. That said, these things have punitive effects. The bakery loses business when they turn paying customers away. Some people will choose to take their money elsewhere. The owners know this and they make a calculated decision when they refuse a customer. That's one of the ways the free market is intended to work, even if it is distasteful at times. I'm sure there is a percentage of the consumer populace in that area that labeled this bakery as "the assholes who won't bake cakes for lesbians bakery" and they tell all their friends not go there. And I'm sure it cost them some business. And maybe it also got them some business from other assholes who discriminate against gays. Works itself out, no need for litigation.

    This is but one area I typically break ranks with my liberal brethren. Rather than force a business to do something, I punish them by going somewhere else.
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