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Cops force-search woman's vagina for 11 minutes at road site

GhostlyJoe said:
When the system protects those individual actors, you have a systemic problem.
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You have a problem in Harris County. I agree.

You do not have a problem with "the whole" of society.
 
Caine said:
You have a problem in Harris County. I agree.

You do not have a problem with "the whole" of society.
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On the contrary, we do have a problem: Planted evidence, unarmed people slain, systematic targeting and abuse of a population as in Ferguson -- this goes beyond just one county. But we can start by demanding justice in this case. A grand jury initially indicted these officers, and the sheriff objected. When a new DA came into office, the case was brought to a second grand jury who declined charges. Meanwhile, the department claims this did not violate policy. Time for a new policy. Agree?
 
GhostlyJoe said:
On the contrary, we do have a problem: Planted evidence, unarmed people slain, systematic targeting and abuse of a population as in Ferguson -- this goes beyond just one county. But we can start by demanding justice in this case. A grand jury initially indicted these officers, and the sheriff objected. When a new DA came into office, the case was brought to a second grand jury who declined charges. Meanwhile, the department claims this did not violate policy. Time for a new policy. Agree?
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I already stated that there is a major problem in Harris County. I already stated I agree. Why are you asking me this again? Are you going to pretend I didn't say it now? There seems to be alot of that going around lately......

You are still failing to see my point. This is a local problem. Planted evidence is an individual problem. I don't know about the Ferguson problem you speak of, so I can't comment on it. (I don't take the media's word for anything these days).

I agree that a more thorough investigation of the handling of both the criminal and internal investigations should be done here. As, I have already stated that Harris County has a problem.

Just for clarification....

Harris County has a major problem within their District Attorney and Sheriff's Department.
Harris County has a major problem within their District Attorney and Sheriff's Department.
Harris County has a major problem within their District Attorney and Sheriff's Department.
Harris County has a major problem within their District Attorney and Sheriff's Department.
Harris County has a major problem within their District Attorney and Sheriff's Department.
 
Caine said:
We do live in a civilized society.

Individual actors do not represent the whole.
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Well, it seems to me that a civilized society would not have a government that takes the country to war under fraud. A civilized country IMO would not have a government that has the highest per capita rate of imprisonment on the planet for 30 years and more, and I don't see how a society could be civilized when it condones torture or where it allows its police to do what was done to that young lady.

I don't see how a society can claim to be civilized when its government routinely kills innocents by drones from above, with no trial.
Sorry, we agree to disagree.
 
Caine said:
I already stated that there is a major problem in Harris County. I already stated I agree. Why are you asking me this again? Are you going to pretend I didn't say it now? There seems to be alot of that going around lately......

You are still failing to see my point. This is a local problem. Planted evidence is an individual problem. I don't know about the Ferguson problem you speak of, so I can't comment on it. (I don't take the media's word for anything these days).

I agree that a more thorough investigation of the handling of both the criminal and internal investigations should be done here. As, I have already stated that Harris County has a problem.

Just for clarification....

Harris County has a major problem within their District Attorney and Sheriff's Department.
Harris County has a major problem within their District Attorney and Sheriff's Department.
Harris County has a major problem within their District Attorney and Sheriff's Department.
Harris County has a major problem within their District Attorney and Sheriff's Department.
Harris County has a major problem within their District Attorney and Sheriff's Department.
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Easily triggered, eh? Your post included a denial that we have a problem with the "whole" of society. I was addressing that and added some details about the particular systemic corruption in Harris County. We need systemic change in how the police operate in this country.
 
GhostlyJoe said:
Easily triggered, eh? Your post included a denial that we have a problem with the "whole" of society. I was addressing that and added some details about the particular systemic corruption in Harris County. We need systemic change in how the police operate in this country.
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Liberal minded folks lately have a way of pretending someone didn't say something that they said because it is inconvenient to their point. Just making sure I covered my basis thoroughly.

This isn't a problem with the whole of society. It is a local problem with local implications? Sure.

But claiming Police in... say... Raleigh, NC to be evil and horrible violators of rights based upon the actions of Ferguson, MO police department is wrong. Local problems are local. They are not an indication of anything other than a problem within that jurisdiction.
 
Caine said:
Liberal minded folks lately have a way of pretending someone didn't say something that they said because it is inconvenient to their point. Just making sure I covered my basis thoroughly.

This isn't a problem with the whole of society. It is a local problem with local implications? Sure.

But claiming Police in... say... Raleigh, NC to be evil and horrible violators of rights based upon the actions of Ferguson, MO police department is wrong. Local problems are local. They are not an indication of anything other than a problem within that jurisdiction.
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Nobody is claiming that, but there have been incidents in communities all over the country, from Cleveland to L.A. to Texas. Until our system starts policing itself and holding rogue officers accountable, then we will continue to call for systemic change. Considering that our new administration has set aside existing consent decrees in cities like St. Louis and Baltimore, we're moving in the wrong direction.
 
GhostlyJoe said:
Nobody is claiming that, but there have been incidents in communities all over the country, from Cleveland to L.A. to Texas. Until our system starts policing itself and holding rogue officers accountable, then we will continue to call for systemic change. Considering that our new administration has set aside existing consent decrees in cities like St. Louis and Baltimore, we're moving in the wrong direction.
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I am for more state and local control. Not less.

I disagree with any federal level changes to criminal justice.

It is something the local citizens/representatives need to vote upon and decide for themselves if changes need to be made... and which specific changes they want to implement, if any, are needed.
 
Caine said:
I am for more state and local control. Not less.

I disagree with any federal level changes to criminal justice.

It is something the local citizens/representatives need to vote upon and decide for themselves if changes need to be made... and which specific changes they want to implement, if any, are needed.
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That's impossible in situations like Ferguson. Local control is failing in places like Baltimore, which is why it took a Justice Department investigation to uncover and correct some of the most egregious practices. The consent decrees were agreements that the local departments would police themselves, improve training, and correct injustices. Sessions has rolled back some of that progress.
 
Caine said:
So the charges being dropped is "the whole" of society?????

I also note you ignored once again my request to provide evidence that many people on this board agree with the actions as you specifically stated earlier.
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Well.. since it is one of many many many examples of police doing egregious stuff (stuff that's so bad it makes the internet and the media like this video) that should get them prosecuted or at least fired..and yet the police get away with it like these two did?

Yes.. its indicative of a "whole society"..

Oh.. I am not ignoring anything.. I wasn;t aware that you wanted evidence.

Simple.. just go back to the thread on the women who was tased because she didn;t get out of the car. There are a plethora of examples of people claiming it was her fault because she didn;t comply.

Then.. research what the police officer in this situation told the woman who was held down and body searched:

On the video you hear her ask the cop why he searched her in public with people walking by. The cop told her.. "you should have been honest from the start.. you escalated it.. I gave you several outs." or something to that effect.

Eerily similar with what a number of people were saying about the woman who was tased (a potentially lethal method) .. even though she offered no threat to the officer.
 
GhostlyJoe said:
That's impossible in situations like Ferguson. Local control is failing in places like Baltimore, which is why it took a Justice Department investigation to uncover and correct some of the most egregious practices. The consent decrees were agreements that the local departments would police themselves, improve training, and correct injustices. Sessions has rolled back some of that progress.
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Sorry... I just don't see it as a responsibility of the federal government to tell state and local governments how to handle their criminal process.

What is the point of the 10th Amendment if big government types always want the federal government involved.
 
jaeger19 said:
Well.. since it is one of many many many examples of police doing egregious stuff (stuff that's so bad it makes the internet and the media like this video) that should get them prosecuted or at least fired..and yet the police get away with it like these two did?

Yes.. its indicative of a "whole society"..
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How is it all of society because a particular County's Sheriff Department has some serious issues with handling internal and criminal investigations of police officers.

Oh.. I am not ignoring anything.. I wasn;t aware that you wanted evidence.

Simple.. just go back to the thread on the women who was tased because she didn;t get out of the car. There are a plethora of examples of people claiming it was her fault because she didn;t comply.

Then.. research what the police officer in this situation told the woman who was held down and body searched:

On the video you hear her ask the cop why he searched her in public with people walking by. The cop told her.. "you should have been honest from the start.. you escalated it.. I gave you several outs." or something to that effect.

Eerily similar with what a number of people were saying about the woman who was tased (a potentially lethal method) .. even though she offered no threat to the officer.
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There is a difference between using force to effect an arrest, and a body cavity search. The proper procedures are completely different. You must have failed law enforcement training a few times eh?
 
Caine said:
I am for more state and local control. Not less.

I disagree with any federal level changes to criminal justice.

It is something the local citizens/representatives need to vote upon and decide for themselves if changes need to be made... and which specific changes they want to implement, if any, are needed.
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That, "take away the enforcement of constitutional rights at the federal level" has the effect of turning a blind eye to the systemic racism that ubiquitously but subtly influences our criminal justice system.
 
Caine said:
Sorry... I just don't see it as a responsibility of the federal government to tell state and local governments how to handle their criminal process.

What is the point of the 10th Amendment if big government types always want the federal government involved.
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Perhaps you should review the fourteenth amendment.
 
Absentglare said:
That, "take away the enforcement of constitutional rights at the federal level" has the effect of turning a blind eye to the systemic racism that ubiquitously but subtly influences our criminal justice system.
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Are you misquoting me?

Nowhere did I state "take away the enforcement of constitutional rights at the federal level". You really have a hard time following dialogue don't you?

I said police reforms need to be taken on at a local/state level.
 
Caine said:
How is it all of society because a particular County's Sheriff Department has some serious issues with handling internal and criminal investigations of police officers.

?
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Stop being obtuse. this is an example that has been demonstrated all over the country.. not just in one county in America.


There is a difference between using force to effect an arrest, and a body cavity search. The proper procedures are completely different. You must have failed law enforcement training a few times eh?
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forc

Really? Gee.. I thought when force is used it should be reasonable and necessary.

Apparently your training was different. so please explain how use of force does not have to be reasonable and necessary in both situations.
 
jaeger19 said:
Stop being obtuse. this is an example that has been demonstrated all over the country.. not just in one county in America.


forc

Really? Gee.. I thought when force is used it should be reasonable and necessary.

Apparently your training was different. so please explain how use of force does not have to be reasonable and necessary in both situations.
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Your opinion of what is reasonable and necessary might not match up to what local use of force policy allows.

Personally, the use of force policy I was when I was a police officer did not allow the use of a taser unless someone was essentially fighting you (aka punches, kicks, etc) or higher. However, if the officer was within their use of force continuum based on state/local laws and policy or not is beyond my understanding.

This street side rape, however, clearly must be against the law or there wouldn't have been a 1st indictment by the grand jury.
 
There was marijuana found on her though.
 
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Caine said:
Are you misquoting me?

Nowhere did I state "take away the enforcement of constitutional rights at the federal level". You really have a hard time following dialogue don't you?

I said police reforms need to be taken on at a local/state level.
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LOL you don't realize that moving the enforcement away from the federal government takes it away from the federal government?
 
Absentglare said:
LOL you don't realize that moving the enforcement away from the federal government takes it away from the federal government?
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The conversation wasn't about "enforcement of constitutional rights" in the first place.

Why do you always twist someone's words into something they didn't say? You did the same thing with the Google memo guy.
 
reinoe said:
There was marijuana found on her though.
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that's why we need to end the idiotic war on drugs-especially weed. those cops should get 20 years in state prison for rape. after doing time in federal prison for violating her civil rights under the color of state law.
 
jaeger19 said:
According to a number of people on this board.. its the woman's fault for non compliance. If she had simply complied with the police order to take off her clothes in the parking lot.. she would not have been handcuffed.. thrown to the ground and searched. Its obviously her fault.
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If she had complied, wouldn't she have been charged with indecent exposure?
 
Caine said:
Your opinion of what is reasonable and necessary might not match up to what local use of force policy allows.

.
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Well and that's the point. The use of force has gotten way way too permissive.

Personally, the use of force policy I was when I was a police officer did not allow the use of a taser unless someone was essentially fighting you (aka punches, kicks, etc) or higher.
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The same for me. Unless there was a reasonable expectation that I was in imminent threat of personal harm.. even though punches or kicks had not been thrown.

My partner used a taser on a suspect that kept coming at him (on a domestic which is the worst to walk into ) and he refused to stop, was 6 foot six 260. I was trying to get around the car to help AND keep an eye on the female who I was questioning. My partner decided enough was enough and put the guy down with the taser. I would stand on a stack of bibles that that was reasonable and necessary despite the fact the man had not thrown a punch or a kick. There is no doubt in my mind in that situation that bad things were going to happen to my partner if he hadn;t used the taser. (and of course the woman who was previously screaming about her boyfriend slapping her and threatening her.. then tried to attack me and my partner and I had to subdue her and put her in cuffs in the back of the squad car.

That being said.. I don't think tasing a stupid girl who thinks she has the right to stay in her car is reasonable or necessary.

Nor.. Do I think that the cavity search on the side of the road was reasonable or necessary.
 
SDET said:
If she had complied, wouldn't she have been charged with indecent exposure?
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As I understand it.. if I saw the transcript of the conversation that can be heard on the dash cam.. that she demanded to know why the officers did the search right out in front of everyone.. and one cop told her that it was her fault and that if she had just been honest and complied.. but she escalated it, and she bears responsibility.

That's what I think is eerie about this. That the idea that failure to comply means unreasonable force can be used.. and this is acceptable is being stated by folks on this board and being echoed by police.
 
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