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Death Penalty: Arkansas Frenzy

Grand Mal said:
Didja ever wonder if the death penalty, in some perverse way, actually encouraged murder? I suppose the only way to begin checking it out would be to compare murder rates of states and countries according to their use of capital punishment. But it's been shown that hard-core felons approve of harsh punishment and there's been condemned men who refused to co-operate with their mandatory appeals.
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Our death penalty is a bit of a joke. It takes well over 20 years to put someone to death, and most of the time, the perp cuts a deal to stay alive anyway.

The ones that piss me off are the ones who trade their lives for information on where other bodies are buried. I understand the need for closure, but, it still ticks me off that someone can actually get out of the death penalty by admitting to more murders.
 
calamity said:
From the number of brutal serial killers I've seen operating in Canada, you all may want to reconsider your punishment options.
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Yes, very topical.
I hope you're not going to pretend that capital punishment deters mass or serial killers.
Sh*te happens everywhere but it'd be hard to find many societies of tens of millions that are safer and more orderly than Canada. Switzerland, maybe, or maybe not.
 
Grand Mal said:
Yes, very topical.
I hope you're not going to pretend that capital punishment deters mass or serial killers.
Sh*te happens everywhere but it'd be hard to find many societies of tens of millions that are safer and more orderly than Canada. Switzerland, maybe, or maybe not.
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For me it's less about deterrence than it is getting rid of scumbags, and yes--revenge.

I used to be against the death penalty, but once I spoke to a few surviving family members of murder victims, a large percentage of whom wanted to see the perp put to death, I began to change my position.

Their argument: I can't visit my Johnny, and my Johnny can't enjoy a meal or conversation or even read a letter. So, I do not want his killer to have that pleasure either.

It sold me....eventually.
 
Thoreau72 said:
Yes, southern redneck Christians in action. I think they should torture them some way or other for a week before they execute them. And then stretch the killing process out to make it last hours.
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For the crimes some of them committed, you betcha
 
Grand Mal said:
That'll do.
I was working up to a list of the countries that still have capital punishment. It's a Muslim thing these days, in the 21st century. Nobody else uses it. Well, you guys do but it's a Muslim thing otherwise.
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Oh, look at you trying to be cute! The DP is just fine, and should be used more often.
 
calamity said:
Our death penalty is a bit of a joke. It takes well over 20 years to put someone to death, and most of the time, the perp cuts a deal to stay alive anyway.

The ones that piss me off are the ones who trade their lives for information on where other bodies are buried. I understand the need for closure, but, it still ticks me off that someone can actually get out of the death penalty by admitting to more murders.
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So the question is, why bother? It doesn't work, not in a civilized society with mandatory appeals and humanitarian concerns. Doesn't even work in countries without those considerations, though China and Iran and Saudi Arabia could teach you how to make it cost-effective if you want to go there.
I'm not advocating that all are savable in an enlightened system or anything like that. It needn't cost those horrendous numbers to maintain a felon in max security, though. And if I were convicted of a capital crime, just ask me if I'd rather hear the executioners footsteps approaching once or hear the cell door slam a thousand times.
 
Renae said:
Oh, look at you trying to be cute! The DP is just fine, and should be used more often.
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Oh look, you're being trite and tedious. Quelle surprise!
Look it up. Outwith the Yellow Hordes and the Muslim Hordes, who executes citizens? The western nation with the abysmally lowest opinion of it's government and it's judiciary.
 
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Grand Mal said:
So the question is, why bother? It doesn't work, not in a civilized society with mandatory appeals and humanitarian concerns. Doesn't even work in countries without those considerations, though China and Iran and Saudi Arabia could teach you how to make it cost-effective if you want to go there.
I'm not advocating that all are savable in an enlightened system or anything like that. It needn't cost those horrendous numbers to maintain a felon in max security, though. And if I were convicted of a capital crime, just ask me if I'd rather hear the executioners footsteps approaching once or hear the cell door slam a thousand times.
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The executioner seems to scare enough of them enough that they are quick to cut a deal to avoid the needle. In fact, when push comes to shove, the most obvious, advantageous role the DP plays in our society is that it forces murderers to the negotiating table. It's rather uncanny how well the threat of death works to get an otherwise stubborn, cocky killer to scamper for a deal.
 
calamity said:
The executioner seems to scare enough of them enough that they are quick to cut a deal to avoid the needle. In fact, when push comes to shove, the most obvious, advantageous role the DP plays in our society is that it forces murderers to the negotiating table. It's rather uncanny how well the threat of death works to get an otherwise stubborn, cocky killer to scamper for a deal.
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Well, keep it on the table then.
Just that, every country in the world struggles with the same issues. Pick any metric, any statistic that you think will give you an honest answer and look it up.
 
Grand Mal said:
Oh look, you're being trite and tedious. Quelle surprise!
Look it up. Outwith the Yellow Hordes and the Muslim Hordes, who executes citizens? The western nation with the abysmally lowest opinion of it's government and it's judiciary.
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/shrug Do convicts put to death commit further crimes?

Working as intended.
 
Renae said:
/shrug Do convicts put to death commit further crimes?

Working as intended.
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When we catch a guy like Gacey, who had 30 kids buried in his basement, there's no reason at all to keep him alive more than a year or two after his conviction. It's not like there was any doubt to his guilt. And, letting that POS breathe in any more air than is absolutely necessary to walk him to the death chamber is already a few hundred breaths too many.
 
Renae said:
/shrug Do convicts put to death commit further crimes?

Working as intended.
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Irrelevant. Their crimes mean that they forfeit any right to further life. Immediate death.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Before you shed any tears for them, look at what these scumbags did:



Don William Davis | Murderpedia, the encyclopedia of murderers

Stacey Johnson - Rapist and Murderer Stacey Eugene Johnson | Murderpedia, the encyclopedia of murderers

Ledell Lee -



Jason McGehee -



Some people aren't worth even feeding.
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Longtime supporter of capital punishment, here.

I tend to agree with what you said and have little if any sympathy for most death row murderers. Frankly lethal injection is too good for them.


But our record as a nation on wrongful convictions is worrisome. There is little question we've put innocent men to death at times. That alone gives me pause.

More importantly, allowing the State to kill its own citizens is just too much power in the hands of an already too powerful government. We know that power is already abused. Letting it stand as a precedent just isn't good.

Sympathy for murderers has nothing to do with why I've decided I no longer support capital punishment... but rather, concern for innocent persons that may get caught up in a witchhunt or a prosecutor's desire to pad his resume.
 
Goshin said:
Longtime supporter of capital punishment, here.

I tend to agree with what you said and have little if any sympathy for most death row murderers. Frankly lethal injection is too good for them.


But our record as a nation on wrongful convictions is worrisome. There is little question we've put innocent men to death at times. That alone gives me pause.

More importantly, allowing the State to kill its own citizens is just too much power in the hands of an already too powerful government. We know that power is already abused. Letting it stand as a precedent just isn't good.

Sympathy for murderers has nothing to do with why I've decided I no longer support capital punishment... but rather, concern for innocent persons that may get caught up in a witchhunt or a prosecutor's desire to pad his resume.
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Quit living in the past? Yes, 40 plus years ago, the criminal justice system had some flaws. Some of those were just... lacking teh science and tools, some of it was cultural, and yes some of it had a racial component. The closer you get to 2017, the less I worry about the chance of a pure innocent being wrongly convicted.
 
Goshin said:
Longtime supporter of capital punishment, here.

I tend to agree with what you said and have little if any sympathy for most death row murderers. Frankly lethal injection is too good for them.


But our record as a nation on wrongful convictions is worrisome. There is little question we've put innocent men to death at times. That alone gives me pause.

More importantly, allowing the State to kill its own citizens is just too much power in the hands of an already too powerful government. We know that power is already abused. Letting it stand as a precedent just isn't good.

Sympathy for murderers has nothing to do with why I've decided I no longer support capital punishment... but rather, concern for innocent persons that may get caught up in a witchhunt or a prosecutor's desire to pad his resume.
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I agree. I think a recent survey said that 80% of death penalties come from less than 10 jurisdictions. I would ask anyone who disagrees to state how many innocent lives is too many? How many are they good with? I can't accept any. The only way to avoid killing those not guilty of the crime they were convicted of is to not kill any of them. I'm not saying those people are not guilty of being criminals, they may well be. But evidence has shown us that many are convicted wrongly of the crime that put them on death row. If we wish to put people to death, we cannot make those mistakes.
 
Renae said:
Quit living in the past? Yes, 40 plus years ago, the criminal justice system had some flaws. Some of those were just... lacking teh science and tools, some of it was cultural, and yes some of it had a racial component. The closer you get to 2017, the less I worry about the chance of a pure innocent being wrongly convicted.
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DNA has certainly taken a lot of the "maybe" out of the equation. The cases shown above in the SD's post, are certainly all slam dunk guilty.
 
Goshin said:
Longtime supporter of capital punishment, here.

I tend to agree with what you said and have little if any sympathy for most death row murderers. Frankly lethal injection is too good for them.


But our record as a nation on wrongful convictions is worrisome. There is little question we've put innocent men to death at times. That alone gives me pause.

More importantly, allowing the State to kill its own citizens is just too much power in the hands of an already too powerful government. We know that power is already abused. Letting it stand as a precedent just isn't good.

Sympathy for murderers has nothing to do with why I've decided I no longer support capital punishment... but rather, concern for innocent persons that may get caught up in a witchhunt or a prosecutor's desire to pad his resume.
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Ineffective counsel is certainly a concern. As is something like this:

New trial set for woman whose murder conviction was overturned

Inadmissible confession that was allowed in by the trial judge.


More detail here, if interested.

Appeals court says Kimberly Sharp, serving life for her role in David Owen's murder, was unconstitutionally convicted

Court precedent says a promise of leniency is a relevant factor in determining whether a confession was improperly coerced.

While lower courts believed Wheeles merely instructed her to be truthful and held out no promises, the 10th Circuit found that a reasonable reading of the exchange shows Wheeles clearly telling Sharp "no" several times when she asked if she was going to jail and that she was only a witness so long as she didn't do anything dumb to "jam [her]self."
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God created man so man could kill them.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Irrelevant. Their crimes mean that they forfeit any right to further life. Immediate death.
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Indeed! The Old Testament demands it, as does our Judeo-Christian Heritage. Let god sort it all out. Our job is merely to kill each other in his name.
 
Thoreau72 said:
Indeed! The Old Testament demands it, as does our Judeo-Christian Heritage. Let god sort it all out. Our job is merely to kill each other in his name.
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Some... certainly.
 
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